Vin number 1918 DB Touring

[Willy]

I’m getting ready to title my 1918, and I want to be positive of the ID. Any experts out there? The numbers I can find are 211686, on the crossover holding the transmission. Couldn’t find anything on the frame behind the right spring. This is what I found:

[Ray Mahony]

The chassis number is on the chassis cross member RHS just in front of the seat.  You may have to carefully scrape away some paint. 

If that is an aluminium gearbox in your pic, I would say you have the wrong box. Sorry, but as far as I know the aluminium box was only on the '15 and '16 vehicles.

The engine number will be on the left-hand side of the block.

[Willy]

Never thought it would be older, but my bill of sale said 1918. I’ll hold off, and research it closer. Thanks!

[nearchoclatetown]

I THINK that number matches your engine number by the carb. What distributor? Pictures of dash board?

[Willy]

I’ll check……

[Willy]

I checked my book on design changes - says, “LHD Transmission case from all aluminum to aluminum with pressed steel support”. Dated 4:12/1918 Friday. Now I just have to figure what “pressed steel support” means……I’ll get some photos tomorrow.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Willy (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Early aluminium box has the mounting “ears” cast in, the later aluminium box has a separate mounting frame (pressed steel support) as does the steel box.

 

[Willy]

Minibago, thank you for that - now I know what to look for! I’ll check tomorrow.

[Mark Gregush]

How about posting some photos of the car, we like seeing pretty pictures (or even ugly ones!! lol). Besides, those photos could help clue us in about what year it might be, if not an 18. 

What is the engine number? It should be on top of the cast web between the cylinders and starter/generator. Originally the transmission and motor number matched for engine with cast transmission mounts. The motor number would be about 50,000 higher than serial number of the car, so can't date it by that. You need to give the crossmember a good clean up. The numbers are between 3/8 and 1/2" tall. There would have been a toe tag on the right side upper floorboard (USA cars) with the serial number, but if that is missing, you need to find the frame number. In case you wonder or ask, there is a number on the engine side of the firewall, that is just a body number. I don't know of any charts that show years by that number. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Mark Gregush (see edit history)

[Willy]

Minibago, thank you for that - now I know what to look for! I’ll check tomorrow. I’m not sure what you mean by “box”. I found a serial number on the cross frame - 245924. I find no number on the flat surface above the carb, other than a circle with the number “19” on it.  Where else can I look for a serial number? Here’s some pics of other numbers on the engine…..

Edited August 20, 2023 by Willy
Add question. (see edit history)

[Willy]

The cross member with the number (211686) is separate from engine.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Willy
Changed wording. (see edit history)

[Willy]

This is the dash I removed from the car. It has no glovebox.

[Willy]

Mark, here are more pics:

[Minibago]

Hi Willy,

”Box” short for gearbox.

You have a steel gearbox.

Glove box discontinued “I think” in 1917.

Chassis number on the cross member under the floor boards just at the base of the seat.

Engine number above the carburettor.

 

[nearchoclatetown]

In the US a '17 had a hacksaw choke, would have a slot in dash not a hole.  Also had a goggle box and wood fellow wheels. I believe '22 was only year for honeycomb radiator. The 6-3-19 on head is a casting date. Look carefully on the cross member right at the passenger seat area, should have a serial number there or on frame on passenger side at rear hanger for front spring. Either would be very faint. There is a number stamped on the right side of the firewall which is a sequential number showing how many touring cars were built that year.  Would start T then number, it really means nothing. What distributor do you have? NE or Delco?

Edited August 20, 2023 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[Mark Gregush]

The crossmember we are talking about would be about where your heel would be sitting in the front seat (now sitting under cowl) not the rear engine support. The number will be on the top right side of that crossmember. Looks like you will need to clear the front seat so you can look for it.

If there is no number on the boss above the carburetor, look in the area circled in the photo below. Original that number would match the one you have shown in one of the above pictures. The numbers on the engine and engine support are not seral numbers, they are just engine numbers. Yes the glove box ended mid 1917. The body looks to be the narrower pre mid-ish 1919. 

[Willy]

Thanks - I’ll look after church. So far, it sounds like I have a ‘14, ‘15, ‘18, ‘23. Next, I’ll find it’s a Cadillac ( that Jonny Cash sang about!) 

[nearchoclatetown]

The picture of the right side of the engine, you already have the area sanded where a number could be depending on the year. It is very lightly stamped, hard to read at times. The number at the seat MAY have CAR in front of it if early enough.

[Willy]

Okay, so for my title, I’ll include the chassis number to be 245924, and the engine number to be 211686. It doesn’t coincide with everything I’m told, but wouldn’t that be enough to title it?

[nearchoclatetown]

It depends how accurate you want to be. 

[Mark Gregush]

Don't confuse the DMV, just use the chassis number.  If they do an inspection, that would be the number they would look at. Not sure what the confusion is, the chassis number would be between Dec 4th 1917 and Jan 1st 1918 making it a 1918 series car. 

[MrLiken]

Does anyone have a photo of the serial # on the frame cross-member, that they can post?  When I stripped mine down, I had the auto theft detectives stop by and help me raise the numbers (using a battery charger for current).  Would love to see some examples from early models.

[nearchoclatetown]

So how did they find the number using a battery charger?  Did it say CAR in front of the number?

[MrLiken]

<<After all scratches have been removed and the surface of the metal highly polished,
the etching process is started. The best etching solution for steel is 50 % hydrochloric
acid with 5 gins. of cupric ammonium chloride added for each 100 ml. of solution.

The etching solution may be applied with a cotton swab attached to a glass rod or
a wooden stick. The etching will be speeded up, and better definition will be obtained,
if an electric current is permitted to flow through the etching fluid.>>

 

We did not see CAR in front.  There appeared to be "stamp plates" holder marks that were identical on either end of the numbers.  This is one reason why I am hoping someone can post photos of there findings.

 

>> from: https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4630&context=jclc

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MrLiken (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Thanks for that explanation. I will see if my numbers show up on a picture. They are faint. 4900 is pretty early. Do you still have the hand holes on driver's side of engine? Could have one piece valve cover but probably not?

[MrLiken]

"Do you still have the hand holes on driver's side of engine? Could have one piece valve cover but probably not?"

 

I don't know what the hand holes look like.  I've spent the last hour searching the forum and google images for an early engine, but only finding engines with vacuum tanks and distributors.  This is a photo of the drivers' side of engine.  Valve cover is 2 piece.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by MrLiken (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

One of the hand holes would be behind the S/G. The other would have the oil fill attached to it behind the carb. The acorn bolts are correct as are the primer cups. I've only seen one of the one piece valve covers. 

[Minibago]

Hand holes?

This guy did it with a ford engine but I never knew Dodge Brothers engines could be lifted by hand. 😂😂

 

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

I guess this has something to do with the discussion, but I don't know how.

[Minibago]

Sorry Doug, just a bit of humour.

[Willy]

MrLiken, the valve covers - two. Still am lost looking for “handholds”; still looking for the distributor. If the date on the top of the head is 1919, how can that be a 1918?

[Mark Gregush]

"If the date on the top of the head is 1919, how can that be a 1918?" Gee Wizz maybe someone changed the head in the past 100+ years? 

The hand holds were discontinued at car 20,000 and one piece covers below 2340 but might have been used sometimes up to 41169. Those are serial numbers not engine numbers. 

 

[Willy]

So Mark, if the head has been changed, does that take away from the car being truly an original? If all you experts out there are convinced my car is 1918, that is how I will register it. Thank you for all your input.

[Mark Gregush]

Why would you worry about the head? The car no longer has the original paint or upholstery that it left the factory with, nor will the products used to replace them be the same as what the factory used and that list could go on. So a replacement head would be of little consequences. 

Wishing you good luck with getting it registered. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Mark Gregush (see edit history)

[Willy]

Good point. Thanks!