1935 Dodge Brothers KC 2nd Series Commercial Express - Production Questions

[dodgebrother]

What date by month and day was the 1935 KC 2^nd series put into production and when was it first offered for sale?

What is the start and end serial number of the last 1^st series 1935 Dodge KC produced and what is the start and end serial number of the 1^st Dodge KC 2^nd series.

One would assume that they would be sequential but that is not always the case.

Also how many 1935 KC 1^st series were built and sold and how many 1935 KC 2^nd series were built and sold?

My 1935 2nd series truck was built October 25, 1935.

And the engine was built in April 1935.

As we know the only major change between 1935 KC 1^st series and the 1935 KC 2^nd series were the doors going from suicide to conventional and the roof going from soft top to solid metal.

If there were any other subtle changes I am not currently aware of and if anyone know that would be interesting to know as well.

Also what sheet metal  ( fenders, grill shell etc) on the 1st and 2nd series is interchangeable or the same as that of 1933 to 1935 cars.

Any and all information provided is much appreciated.

thanks,

[nearchoclatetown]

The Master Parts book MAY tell you that. It MAY say after serial number XYZ use part number 123 , for example. The early books tell things in that fashion. 

[30DodgePanel]

On 4/19/2023 at 12:51 PM, dodgebrother said:

What date by month and day was the 1935 KC 2^nd series put into production and when was it first offered for sale?

 

What is the start and end serial number of the last 1^st series 1935 Dodge KC produced and what is the start and end serial number of the 1^st Dodge KC 2^nd series.

 

One would assume that they would be sequential but that is not always the case.

 

Also how many 1935 KC 1^st series were built and sold and how many 1935 KC 2^nd series were built and sold?

 

My 1935 2nd series truck was built October 25, 1935.

 

And the engine was built in April 1935.

 

As we know the only major change between 1935 KC 1^st series and the 1935 KC 2^nd series were the doors going from suicide to conventional and the roof going from soft top to solid metal.

 

If there were any other subtle changes I am not currently aware of and if anyone know that would be interesting to know as well.

Also what sheet metal  ( fenders, grill shell etc) on the 1st and 2nd series is interchangeable or the same as that of 1933 to 1935 cars.

Any and all information provided is much appreciated.

 

thanks,

 

Along with what Doug mentioned, have you determined if some of the answers are on the model charts and if you're looking for calendar year or model year answers.
 

Serial Number Guide (t137.com)

 

After that, you can search Commercial Car Journals with online tool at HahtiTrust library to get a general idea of when the new line was released

 

 

Here are some of the hits that come up for 1930-1939 ranges I put in the search engine. When you scroll down and find a Commercial Car journal you can look thru the 1935 editions to determine where and when the new lines were released. You'll need to look for a cross like symbol to the left of where the KC model was first introduced in the spec sheets. When that symbol first appears is the month the new models were released. It's a lot of searching and reading but it's the only way I know how to do it. Try getting used to the search engine on the left once you're in the magazine to find what you're looking for.  I would suggest terms like "Dodge KC" or "Dodge Brothers" etc...
Full-text Search Results | HathiTrust Digital Library

 

Here is what the cross shaped symbol will look like. This is from a July 1935 issue showing when the K60 was first introduced with the plus sign highlighted on the left.

 

Good luck,

Dave

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[dodgebrother]

30 Dodge thanks for providing this info.

I will get into it and see what I can find.

[dodgebrother]

Also thanks Nearchoclateto for your suggestions.

[dodgebrother]

That Hathi Trust Library is an amazing resource of info. A person could go blind searching.

Got some info on production.

T137 gives me some info on potential production dates for 1st and 2nd series.

Based on that I would say the 1st series was January to February (25,625 unites) and 2nd series February to October (23, 849 units)

My SN is towards the last of production with about 290 left to build as production stopped in October end I would think.

My truck was built on October 29, 1935 and had several special options on the build card.

 

The search continues.

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

I only have a '34 truck Master Parts book here at home. I know there are later scanned copies at AACA library because I scanned them. A DBC member loaned me up to '38 to be scanned as he wanted the hard copies back. Call AACA library and ask for Matt. If he's confused tell him to call me. 

[Scott Bonesteel]

On 4/19/2023 at 12:51 PM, dodgebrother said:

What date by month and day was the 1935 KC 2^nd series put into production and when was it first offered for sale?

 

What is the start and end serial number of the last 1^st series 1935 Dodge KC produced and what is the start and end serial number of the 1^st Dodge KC 2^nd series.

 

One would assume that they would be sequential but that is not always the case.

 

Also how many 1935 KC 1^st series were built and sold and how many 1935 KC 2^nd series were built and sold?

 

My 1935 2nd series truck was built October 25, 1935.

 

And the engine was built in April 1935.

 

As we know the only major change between 1935 KC 1^st series and the 1935 KC 2^nd series were the doors going from suicide to conventional and the roof going from soft top to solid metal.

 

If there were any other subtle changes I am not currently aware of and if anyone know that would be interesting to know as well.

Also what sheet metal  ( fenders, grill shell etc) on the 1st and 2nd series is interchangeable or the same as that of 1933 to 1935 cars.

Any and all information provided is much appreciated.

 

thanks,

I have a fairly complete set of Dodge Truck parts lists for 34 and 35 that I have used in chasing down information and parts for my late 34 KCL panel.  These include the following:

 

--Publication D-3416, 'Dodge Trucks Parts List, 1934 and 1935 Model Series, Trucks Built from January, 1934 to June, 1935...Issued June 15, 1935';

--Publication D-3553, 'Dodge Truck Parts List, 1935 Model Series, Trucks Built After June, 1935...Issued September 1, 1935'; and 

--Publication D-8576, 'Dodge Truck Master Parts List, for All Models--1929 to 1939 (inclusive)'...Issued August 15, 1939' [3 volumes].

 

All of these are original and complete, with the sole exception of page 1 of D-3416, which lists the various models and serial numbers. This information is contained, however, in the other volumes.  These list a Detroit KC 'First' serial number of 8023001 with a 'Last' Detroit serial number of 8048626. First and Last KC serial numbers for the Los Angeles plant are listed as 9202001 and 9203885.  However, there is a separate listing that shows a later KC with a Detroit First serial number of 8048701 and a Last number of 8072550.  First and Last numbers for Los Angeles are listed as 9203901 and 9206587  Note that there is no breakdown between KC and long wheelbase KCL models (such as my Los Angeles built KCL panel), so there does not appear to be a way to determine the exact number of KC models produced, although it must be less than the span between the First and Last serial numbers.  From the folks I have spoken with over the years, I am not aware of any source of this specific statistic, which of course does not mean that it does not exist.

 

If you review the difference in part numbers for the effected parts between the First Series (suicide doors) and Second Series, it appears that the break at 8048701 represents the 'break' between the two Series.  The D-8576 list shows what it refers to as  the 'Starting Engine Number' for the first serial number group as "T5-1001" and "T12-1001" for the second serial number group, which is probably one of the numbers that appear on the firewall plate.  There is an earlier number break (which appears to be from late 1934) which represents the change from the 33 HC/34 KC dash instruments (which are similar but not exactly the same as the 33 Dodge car)  to the '35 style', three round gauge dash that did appear on the First Series and later KC models.  That reference appears to be specific to the instrument cluster change and does not appear to be as widespread as the break at 8048701, which I believe is the serial number break between the First and Second Series KC models in 1935.  What is clear is that by the June 1935 date, the Second Series was being produced.

 

I do have some experience with these KC/KCL models but I am by no sense the absolute authority, which I assume rests with someone in the Dodge Brothers club.  Just hope this helps narrow it down.  As to which parts fit both models, I think the only way this can be done is by checking the part number for the specific part in question (e.g., fender, etc.) and see if it changes between the 34-35 KC parts book and the June 35 KC parts book.  Good luck with your research and keep us advised!  

[dodgebrother]

Thanks Nearchoclatetown I will follow up with Matt at the AACA library.

 

[dodgebrother]

Scott thanks for your detailed response and information.

That is a good lead of what you have determined in stating "8048701, which I believe is the serial number break between the First and Second Series KC models in 1935" and "What is clear is that by the June 1935 date, the Second Series was being produced".

I have done a soft reach out to the DBC and will maybe contact the store and see if I can get a reference to one of the "knowledge keepers".

I will got through some old issues of the DB magazine and the roster and see what I can find as well.

And for sure your knowledge and experience in this is remarkable.

I think through a collaborative effort from anyone who has one of these truck or is knowledgeable or has literature etc. we may be able to get more insight to the start and finish dates of the 35 1st and 2nd series and other information.

I may reach out to the Chrysler museum and see if they have any literature.

One would think that there must be some advertising literature of dealer information / literature that would give some hint to production and change over in 1935. The doors and roof is somewhat of a radical change and one think at some point Dodge / Chrysler would have sent out something like " we are proud to announce the all new 2nd series for 1935" or something like that.

I do have black and white very detailed sketch / design team sketch from the Chrysler library that actually shows the 1935 Second Series with the artist putting in writing under the sketch 2nd Series. So in my thinking this was an artists conception and drawing from the design department. I will try to chase that down a bit more.

I also have several pieces of advertising brochures and original glove box manuals for the 35 2nd series which i will check the copyright on to see if there are any dates.

 

I will keep everyone here up to speed with whatever I find that is "new and succinct".

 

The search continues....

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Your glove box manual MAY say something like effective after serial number XXX. I will be super surprised if you can absolutely come up with a real number of each. In the early cars, which I am more familiar with, they gave ending numbers but there were always exceptions when they used old and new parts. My theory is they never produced two DBs exactly the same. The info Scott gave might be as close as you get. Good luck. last Sunday I saw a second series '35 pickup at a cars and coffee type event, big V8 and a wood barrel in the bed for a gas tank. 

[dodgebrother]

I will see what I can come up with to add to the discussion.

[dodgebrother]

I have gone through all of my brochures, dealer books, owners manuals and brochure photos and here are dates relative to the 1st and 2nd series.

 

1st Series

First owners manual and literature dated January 3, 1935.

Interesting in cab photo there is a grab handle on the left hand pillar which I had not noticed previously.

Also mentioned is a large notebook pocket on the RH side kick panel for note books etc. which is interesting.

Schematics and measurements given for truck with drawing showing no doors.

 

2nd Series

First owners manual and literature dated May 1935 that shows the KC with standard doors.

It has the same diagram of the truck but schematic with measurements laid out a bit different from 1st series but provides a photo of the 2nd series.

The next owners manual with more detail and mention of solid steel cab is dated August 1935.

And they mention the glove box but not the RH side pouch or the grab handle.

 

All of the brochures that I have acquired show the KC 2nd series commercial express with standard doors and solid roof.

 

So if I could speculate I would say the 1st series ended before or at the end of May 1935.

Everything else for literature going forward reads as the 2nd series.

 

My truck is number 8,072,268 with sequential builds to 8,072,550 units ending October 1935.

My build date was October 29, 1935.

 

So this truck is a late build.

It has several special options that I have not seen on another 1st or 2nd series ie: dual side mount spares, dual windshield wipers, chrome grill etc.

Some options are not quite clear.

This truck was a special order by the US Government direct from Detroit and possibly through a Detroit dealer to USG.

I have tried to search historical government records and photos to see what I could find with some interesting photos of an agent which looks like a 34 DB.

 

As Brad and others have said the information on production and build numbers of the 1st and 2nd series and specific dates is probably going to be a bit of a challenge to determine.

The more i read these documents through the more interesting option items I see and other comments.

 

If anyone does have the number info that would be great.

I would even be happy to see someone give an opinion on possible production numbers of both the 1st and 2nd series.

I think the dates above give some indication of timing.

 

Narrowing the search....

Edited April 22, 2023 by dodgebrother (see edit history)

[Scott Bonesteel]

OK, I went through all of my Dodge Truck documentation (wow, I didn't realize how much of it I have...) which is focused on my 34 KCL panel but covers the KC Commercial Express as well.  Agree with you on the May 1935 date but I think I have it dialed in a little bit closer.

 

All of the 1934 KC Express advertising and documentation shows the suicide/first series doors.  This continues through a January 1935 full color brochure, Form K-8.  A similar full color brochure from May 1935, Form K-30, shows the second series doors on the Express.  I also have a large 'How American Business Saves Money with Dodge Trucks' multi-page brochure from February 1935, form K-23, which also shows suicide/first series doors on the KC Express.  Finally, I have a Ross Roy Comparative Handbook for the various Dodge Trucks and commercial vehicles, and the pages devoted to the KC Express are specifically dated 3/1/35 and show suicide/first series doors.  Best guess?  Change was made sometime between March and May 1935.  I have a vague recollection of hearing from somebody or reading that the change was in April 1935, but I cannot locate any specific printed reference supporting that.

 

In addition, I note that I have a small volume that also covers the Commercial Express models,  'Instruction Book for Dodge Commercial Cars, (Codes KC-KCL) After Serial Number 8,048,701'  that states it is a 'First Edition--May, 1935'.  That serial number matches up with the second grouping of KC/KCL serial numbers I discussed in my earlier post, so it seems to make sense that this 'First Edition' of May 1935 was to cover the 'new', second series vehicles.  I have a November 1935 Dodge Trucks Parts Buyers Guide that also shows numerous instances where the 8,048,701 serial number was the transition point for many parts (radiator, etc.).

 

What also needs to be recognized is that the Commercial Express was the only model of the 1935 Dodge commercial cars and trucks that got the new doors--all of the remaining models, from the Commercial Sedan through the Commercial Panel and up through the big trucks kept the suicide doors until the '1936' models were introduced in December of 1935.

 

Let me know if you want any photos of any of this documentation.  SMB  

[Scott Bonesteel]

Here are some photos of the documents referenced.

[dodgebrother]

Hi Scott, thanks for this detailed information. That is a great library of information resource you have. I think we are narrowing the search to having some dates  and time frames.

I will review in detail.

Brian

[Scott Bonesteel]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:38 PM, Scott Bonesteel said:

OK, I went through all of my Dodge Truck documentation (wow, I didn't realize how much of it I have...) which is focused on my 34 KCL panel but covers the KC Commercial Express as well.  Agree with you on the May 1935 date but I think I have it dialed in a little bit closer.

 

All of the 1934 KC Express advertising and documentation shows the suicide/first series doors.  This continues through a January 1935 full color brochure, Form K-8.  A similar full color brochure from May 1935, Form K-30, shows the second series doors on the Express.  I also have a large 'How American Business Saves Money with Dodge Trucks' multi-page brochure from February 1935, form K-23, which also shows suicide/first series doors on the KC Express.  Finally, I have a Ross Roy Comparative Handbook for the various Dodge Trucks and commercial vehicles, and the pages devoted to the KC Express are specifically dated 3/1/35 and show suicide/first series doors.  Best guess?  Change was made sometime between March and May 1935.  I have a vague recollection of hearing from somebody or reading that the change was in April 1935, but I cannot locate any specific printed reference supporting that.

 

In addition, I note that I have a small volume that also covers the Commercial Express models,  'Instruction Book for Dodge Commercial Cars, (Codes KC-KCL) After Serial Number 8,048,701'  that states it is a 'First Edition--May, 1935'.  That serial number matches up with the second grouping of KC/KCL serial numbers I discussed in my earlier post, so it seems to make sense that this 'First Edition' of May 1935 was to cover the 'new', second series vehicles.  I have a November 1935 Dodge Trucks Parts Buyers Guide that also shows numerous instances where the 8,048,701 serial number was the transition point for many parts (radiator, etc.).

 

What also needs to be recognized is that the Commercial Express was the only model of the 1935 Dodge commercial cars and trucks that got the new doors--all of the remaining models, from the Commercial Sedan through the Commercial Panel and up through the big trucks kept the suicide doors until the '1936' models were introduced in December of 1935.

 

Let me know if you want any photos of any of this documentation.  SMB  

Need to correct my last statement:  Many of the larger 35 second series Dodge Trucks did go to the new style cab.  The Panels and commercial sedans stayed with the old 'suicide' style doors.

[countrytravler]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:47 PM, Scott Bonesteel said:

Need to correct my last statement:  Many of the larger 35 second series Dodge Trucks did go to the new style cab.  The Panels and commercial sedans stayed with the old 'suicide' style doors.

I think the 3-ton and larger trucks stayed with the regular doors. I'll do some checking.