Water Pump Woes

[dibarlaw]

I had put off replacing the waterpump on my 1925 Model 45 untill the weather was better for working out in the garage  Nice 70 + degree day here in PA. and the spirit moved me. The first thing scheduled was replacing the restored push rod covers. That took longer than anticipated. Well now to remove the pump. I had removed the pump from my 1925-25 Standard at least 3 times (out of necessity and rectifying errors I had made) and I was confident I could get this similar Master pump out in an afternoon. Of course this one had not been apart for about 50 years. A lot of preliminary fighting with damaged components that had to be adressed before the sliding forward of the rear coupler so that the pump can be lifted out. No amout of penetrating oil, prying and cursing could get the coupler moving. I was reluctant to use heat because of transmitting to the aluminum crankcase bracket and distortion of other machined parts. 2 days used up with no result.

Friend Hugh suggested the following technique.

 "Thanks for the help in suggesting the removal technique. I was just a step away from getting out the hacksaw! Here are the photos I took to document". 

This is for the last Starter/Generator style pumps on a 1925 Master engine. 1924 and earlier are somewhat different in support bearing placement. Most earlier units have the entire pump housing supported not just the shaft as in this case.

 As I mentioned to Hugh, I thought that I was pretty good at removal and re-installation on my Standard. Even though the former owner supposedly "restored" this car in the 1960s-1970s he apparently took everything apart, did some clean up and painting and put things back together, irregardless it the part was worn or not. Reassembled with the help of his brothers working at the local tractor dealer's garage. Some ham-handed techniques were employed.

 Once I was able to remove the taper pin from the coupler. 

 A good straight drill about 1/3 distance on each side until tap out. The bearing as shown had been mashed and had to be carefully driven back with a copper drift.

            

I was able to lightly file the I.D. of the bearing to have the coupler slide back inside.

 That is where no prying on the coupler flange against the distributer housing with what ever tools, and strength I could muster would budge it. I had plugged the small end of the taper pin hole and filled it with GIBBS penetrant as well as the outside letting things soak overnight. I considered the Starter Generator removal and the hacksaw as a last resort. NOTE. They had packed the oil feed reservoir with grease. 

 Hugh sent me some info on a possible technique. I followed this as to splitting the pump apart to lock on the impeller. 

I blocked the Vice-Grip against the sill and fender so as to not put stress on the fiber timing gear teeth (I had already replaced it). The other Vice-Grip on the coupler as shown. With a little grunt and an extra tap with my fist it started things turning. I did not have to use any heat as Hugh suggested. I worked the coupler a full 360-degree rotation before attempting to slide the coupler back. The ball joint tool was best suited for prying.

 Finally, success!. 

Only an afternoon job that took 3 days.

 A quick analysis shows that the impeller to be useable and the bearing areas close to spec at .754 and the packing areas to be trued up to be re-useable.  The pump bushings at least on the input side are about + .030 over in wear. Also, the entire pump had about ½ "of linear play along the shaft. The impeller hub had worn through the bearing flange on the inside of the output case!

 Now to install the pump I rebuilt I have had sitting for 2 years.

Edited April 6, 2023 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Larry,

The early Buicks enthusiasts that frequent these forums have gotten together and bestowed upon you A DOCTORATE DEGREE OF EARLY BUICK WATERPUMPOLOGY.  I simply do not know of anyone on here who has had more dealings with Buick water pumps than you.  Only you can tell us whether this is a good or bad thing.  We're all told at a young age that experience is a good thing.  Is there such a thing as too much experience😒?  You are going to have to be the one to let us all know the answer to that question.  Good luck my friend.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[EmTee]

I love it when a plan comes together!  The one you removed looks like a good winter project... 

 

[dibarlaw]

EmTee:

This is the smaller one on my 1925 Standard that has I have had out at least 3 times. It has been happy for the last 2 years. Output side has a modern lip seal done by Reeve Enterprises and the input side has traditional packing.. No overheating and no leaks.

Below is the unit that will be going back in the Master. I have had done for almost 2 years. Hopefully better from learned lessons on the Standard pump.  Rebuilt from a very damaged unit from Bend Oregon.

The taper pin drillig fixture I made up to HOPEFULLY get a centered, straight pilot hole for my #4 taper pin reamer.

These location holes were drilled IN ASSEMBLY. Most of the ones I have seen were off center and at angles other than 90 to the shaft. This is one of the reasons I had to remove the pump from my Standard because this spacing was too close for the S/G to operate. I made the location hole centered and perpendicular to the shaft. I had tranfered the location dimensions from the original when machineing the new shaft. The original location hole on the old unit was crooked.

Critical adjustment on the coupler to the OLDHAM plate in the Starter Generator. About .050 spacing alowance for smooth operation of the starter. I had to remove the pump and the Oldham coupler plate and surface grind .020 so the starter would work again.

Edited April 7, 2023 by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

I know how much our group loves photos.  This is the edited photo that I sent Larry.   I had been in a similar situation with the Starter Generator drive end stuck on the shaft - also after drilling out the taper pin.  It's always hard to know your options when you can't see internal parts - like the hub of the impellor.  Trying to think of where to clamp onto parts and not do any damage.  Thanks for the new great pictures Larry.  And for those that are really studying these pictures - There is a brass ring in the middle of both end bearings on these water pump shafts.  These are splash lubricating rings.  Be sure a previous owner did not leave them out.       Hugh      

 

 

[John Nelson]

That is fantastic! I am very impressed with the response to my question and have a good idea of how to proceed now. Thanks Very Much! My plan with this car is not to do a total restoration but more to get it back on the road again in a safe driving condition. I bought it out of Texas where it had spent 55+ years in a museum after a “cosmetic restoration” but unfortunately it wasn’t prepped for storage.  John Nelson

[dibarlaw]

Good luck John.

Hugh and I had a long conversation about this car when it was advertized for sale. "Museum cars" are always suspect as to what maintainence was done as usually a display only vehicle. I do have a sample 1924 water pump that I keep from a spare engine in case you need help on yours.

 

[John Nelson]

This one wasn’t quite as good as I’d hoped it would be but at least it’s pretty well complete. It was a 1960’s “restoration” which meant interior, heavy Lacquer paint which is flaking badly and lots of chromed parts on the engine which will need to be stripped. Parts availability is one of my main concerns. Right now I’m cleaning and evaluating just to see where I stand. I appreciate the helpful information! 

[Hubert_25-25]

John, 

    More information on rebuilding your waterpump.  Information on removal as well.     Hugh

 

 

[John Nelson]

Thanks Hugh, I appreciate the info! I have my water pump removed now, I had to take the starter/generator out in order to get the clearance to remove it which I hadn’t planned on. I found the bellhousing packed with “Mouse nest” which is always an unpleasant surprise. After draining the engine oil and lubes from the transmission and rear differential I decided to go ahead and open up the engine. Other than finding some rust/mud in the cooling jacket and a good bit of sludge in the pan really appears to be in good condition. My plan is to pull the engine and transmission to clean them out inspect and reseal them unless I find more work needed. There are quite a few missing items such as the vacuum fuel pump and carb heat/choke panel. I’m sure I’ll find a good bit more that I need but it’s going to be an interesting project!!!      John Nelson