3800 engine update

[GSTURBO]

In todays Flint Journal Auto section is an article about the history of our V6 & why it still survives.It is in the Impala,new Monte carlo & new Pontiac Grand Prix.In 2001, 596,213 were built.In 1961 I worked on the first design,a 198 cubic in.I had a v6 in my 64 special conv & it ran great if you kept putting timing chains in it.When they went to even firing in my 78 I stopped buying chains.It is one of the most trouble free engines made today.It was the first v6 to be certified ultra low emissions.The series III eng is in the new Pont Gran Prix in 2004, 260 HP.also in the NASCAR pace car this year.The Flint plant has built over 32 million engines.GM talked about a new engine three years ago but they cant find anything to replace it,even if they had 10 valves per cyl. Norb B.

[BUICK RACER]

Here's the link for the article: Here I find it very interesting that they did not mention the turbo version of the 3.8L that whipped the Corvette of the late eighty's etc. Very strange, to say the least, that is/was a very important piece of 3.8 history!

[Philippe Racicot]

Nowhere in the article was mentionned that the V6 was developped by or installed in a Buick. I hope that the series 3 will not be reserved for the Grand Prix. I am still waiting for a new, rear wheel drive Buick with a powerful engine. I think Buick needs a car like that more than a truck or a minivan.

I hope that those who decide at GM will notice what kind of car Buick fans want instead of trying to find what car dead people would have prefered! And I know dead and 80+ people that wouldn't have considered buying new Buicks as it wasn't too good for their image! Even my grandfather was driving a Honda Accord when he was over 80 because he didn't want to look older than he was! he is still alive but he can't drive anymore as he suffers from Parkinson. Maybe it is the time for him to buy a new Buick!

It is more than time for an image change at Buick and if older models attract young people like me and many people I know that likes the older models but wouldn't want the problems like finding replacement parts or have the service people at their GM dealer told them they don't know how to fix their cars. The reason I like older Buicks is not because they are old, it's because they are what I like to drive.

[NTX5467]

Thanks for that link, Roberta. Although a few siginficant items (i.e., the 3.8L Turbo version for GN and a hybrid turbo version for Firebird Trans Ams), it was a good overview of the motor in its later years. If someone stops to really consider the numbers, the 3.8L V-6 has had one heck of a production run!

In the middle '90s, the Chevy 3.1L V-6 couldn't pass CA emissions so the 3800 was used there too. It turned out to be a real sleeper in that body too! Better emissions and better power too. As for later Camaro/Firebird 3800 engines, rated at 200 horsepower, they were only about 15 horsepower less than the cult-followed Mustang GT with the really high tech 4.6L V-8. Supercharger kits for those 3800 F-bodies will add another 100 horsepower too. Chevy even had a Z-28 like option package for the later Camaros, but it was far overshadowed by the Z-28 itself and later dropped.

Similarly, the 3800 made only about 10-15 horsepower less than the Northstar architectured Intrigue/Aurora 3.5L V-6 with "High Feature" content. Admittedly, the GM 3.5L V-6 was not as fully developed as the Chrysler 3.5L V-6.

I recall the joy the then BOC Powertrain people had that GM Australia had contracted to use the then-new Buick 3800 V-6 (3800=balance shaft motor) in their vehicles instead of the Nissan unit they had been using (at the last BCA National Meet in Flint, when we toured the V-6 engine plant).

All in all, the Buick 3800 V-6 is one heck of a motor!

As I understand, Series II engines (supercharged or not) are the current variations in Impalas and Regal LS/GS cars. Series III is the "fly by wire" electronic throttle control versions that will be in the new Grand Prix for 2004 and include the 260 horsepower supercharged motor for the '04 Grand Prix. Impala SS and Monte Carlo SS models will have the current 240 horsepower supercharged 3800s.

As for the supercharged 3800s, there is a good deal of speed equipment out for them. Most of it is listed for Pontiac Grand Prix vehicles, though, even though most of it will also fit the Regals.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[86 2dr.ltd]

So glad Pontiac and Chevy are going to make out good with that engine. Bet they'll get a real good ad campain going with real living people.

Hows abouts Buick builds a really sweet 2dr. body and gets to uses its own engine in its own performance car ? How about that GM or would that make Pontiac and Chevy cry. But then why bother when you got the Monty Carlo, Impala and Grand Prix livin large on Buicks motor.

[Guest]

I have an 89 LeSabre T-Type and would like to know if it has the all steel timing gear or the plastic rim with plastic toothed gear. I also own a 87 LeSabre Limited 4DR that has 318,000 miles; used about a cupful of oil in 5000 miles. Only work done was to replace the plastic rimmed timing chain with an all steel one. Thanks.

[Guest]

The L36 (N/A 3800) is in the Regal LS, Park Avenue's, and Lesabres, and the L67 (Supercharged 3800) is in the Regal GS's and Park Avenue Ultra's. As far as i know only the GTP has the Series 3 3800 with the throttle by wire and the GT still has the series 2 (i might be wrong). But ya, the 3800 is still a Buick design and is still available in many buick's. Pontiac seems to be taking over, which ticks me off, Buick needs to get their [censored] together before those cool Harley Earl commercials disappear. I own a 2001 Regal GS, AMAZING car... 240HP and 280lbs-ft of torque... oh, and i bought the car for $14,900 and is fully loaded minus the chrome wheels, engine block heater and heated seats ... and has 27,000 miles on it. i average about 26mpg when i goto school 50/50 city/highway, and highway is usually 32-36mpg while city is well.. probably really close to 20mpg but i haven't totally gotten any real data to prove that as school just let out 2 weeks ago. If you're interested in learning more about the newest 3800 engines, i recommend you check out a website, http://www.regalgs.org we can tell ya TONS about these new engines and all the really cool performance parts for them.. we have a few 12 second Regals and one will probably hit the 11's this year... you probably seen one of them at Norwalk <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[NTX5467]

2004 Grand Prixs are all Series III 3800s and have electronic throttle actuation, which is speed sensitive. At low vehicle speeds, the input must be greater than before for a given action, but once past a certain point, it gets in to the "geddy-up-and-haul" mode. Even with the traction control on, the GTP Comp G 2004 Grand Prixs we drove will spin for close to a car length before the BFG KDAs get hooked up. The EPA figures for the 2004 Grand Prix are up by 1 mpg too, reputedly due to the electronic throttle actuation.

Supercharged Series III 3800s also have the higher efficiency supercharger (Gen 5) that is "lubed for life" and has a published life expectancy of 150,000 miles. This is from the Pontiac Performance Tour 2004 Grand Prix Ride & Drive Participant Guide.

Impala SS and Supercharged Monte Carlo will have Series II 3800s, according to sales literature I picked up at the Dallas New Car Show. Same power and torque figures of the existing Series II supercharged motors too.

Not sure what other differences there are in the Series III motors at this time.

NTX5467

[Guest]

over at www.regalgs.org we've had some discussion on the series II vs series III debate, even have some pictures of the engines outside the cars from a auto show. 150,000 mile life outta the supercharger? i'm hoping it's more than that, now if that 150,000 miles is actually 150,000 that the supercharger is actually being used that shouldn't be a problem at all, but if it's just 150,000 car miles then i'd say screw it cuz most people can put close to that on a car in less than 5 years.

[NTX5467]

Since we've been selling Buicks, I can recall only one supercharger that we needed to estimate the replacement of for a customer, and that was about a month or so ago. Not to imply that others might have had different experiences. The only thing that bothers me is the "sealed for life" nature, which the first year of superchargers had. The second year of production brought us an oil port to change the supercharger oil every 50K miles (how many people really do that little bit of maint.???) and even a GM part number for the small bottle of oil.

I would concur that it ought to last longer than 150K miles, but that could well be "proving grounds miles" which are much more intense than normal useage.

I'll do some part number checks to see what is actually different other than just the electronic throttle actuation.

NTX5467

[SBRMD]

Here's a question for the floor, especially you, NTX5467:

I'm fascinated with the rodding potential of the SC3800, and am contemplating a Buick rod project that would have a SC3800/4L60E RWD drivetrain. Would love to install a new engine and trans, but there are obvious difficulties making the FWD version work. Have even tried to make some contacts "down under" to get a Holden-spec SC3800, with plus/minus results. Do any of you have any bright ideas on what it would take, or how, to repackage the FWD engine for a RWD application, or on how to get a Holden engine? And, do you think the forthcoming series III would make this idea more meritorious, or possibly, dare I say, easier? All learned opinions welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Steve.

[Guest]

that would be a fun little project i think. some discussion of that was on regalgs.org about hooking up a 5 speed to the car... someone there might be able to help ya out.. just remember, the parts for the new 3800's are very expensive...

[NTX5467]

Steve, the only place I have heard of that is doing any kind of adaptation of a front wheel drive engine into a rear wheel drive chassis is Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators, who have a kit to put the front wheel drive NorthStar V-8 into street rod applications. www.chrfab.com There was an article on them a few months back in the Hemmings Rod magazine, as part of their Alternative Engines series on the NorthStar V-8. Seems they have the mounting interfaces all figured out, with the major issue being the water pump placement and related plumbing. Of course, when the Cadillac XLR roadster (which has a new block designed for rear wheel drive) gets into circulation, that will ease the plumbing issues.

The transmission they use for those NorthStar rear wheel drive conversions is something like a middle '80s vintage automatic for a 2.8L V-6 S-10 pickup, but with all of the guts strengthened. That particular article details that stuff, as their website probably does too.

One of the neat things about the later 3800s is their intake and fuel injection system. In the Cadillac conversions, they have a 4bbl intake that replaces the production injection and is an "instant" 100 horsepower on top of the factory 300. I'm not sure what they use to run the ignition, but they obviously have that base covered too.

In order to keep most of the production 3800 intact to ease the conversion, it would be necessary to determine how to interface the new transmission electronics and such into the new transmission electronics. I suspect the 4L60E would be good for that aspect as most if not all of the electronic inputs for the PCM should be similar. Of course, it might be better to find an aftermarket intake from an earlier 3.8L V-6 that would replace the current production intake manifold setup and put on one of the Holley stand-alone fuel injection kits. There were QuadraJet intakes for the fwd Century models and also for the middle '80s full size Cadillacs that used the 4.1L Buick V-6. The key thing here would be if the earlier intake will bolt up to the current cylinder heads.

Rather than use the front wheel drive block, it might be better to consider using one of those earlier Cadillac applications or the Buick GN applications as that would solve all of the mounting problems in one feld swoop. It would also allow for an HEI ignition too, plus generate the 4bbl intake. Only thing is it would not be a balance shaft engine. Electromotive or Rance Fuel Injection could probably do a direct fire ignition adaptation and custom designed port injection setup, respectively.

Some might desire to just go with the GN turbo setup and all of its related electronics. Only real difference would be the turbo instead of the supercharger. OR, here's a better idea, the last generation Camaro used the 3800 that mirrors the non-supercharged 3800. Using that engine as a base to build upon would only require the aftermarket supercharger kit (and related computer recalibrations) to go from 200 horsepower to about 300 horsepower. If you desire to use all of the current production electronics, that Camaro/Firebird application would have everything you would need--engine, electronics, transmission. You might check out GMHighTechPerformance magazine for vendors and such for performance upgrades for that late model 3800 Camaro/Firebird application. I believe there are also some of the F-body websites that have areas devoted to mods on the 3800 engined Camaros/Firebirds too.

There are several options to do what you desire, but not all specifically for adapting the front wheel drive block to a rear wheel drive chassis. Obviously, starting with a rear wheel drive block would be preferable. Whether you started with the middle '80s Cadillac block/THM200R4 and built up a street rod type application or started with the latest Camaro powertrain and built something totally environmentally friendly (check your local emissions rule first!), that would really get on down the road, would be up to you.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467