Warner Gear T2c-1 Transmission Jumps out of 2nd

[richard m]

My 1930 Studebaker Dictator has a Warner Gear T2c-1 transmission that jumps out of second gear.  This transmission was used in many cars of the late 20's and 30's apparently.  Before I tear into it I thought I'd see if anyone has experience with these transmissions and can you suggest what might be the problem?  Bad gear, worn bearings, worn shift collar?  Also is there a diagram of this transmission available?  Thx, Richard

[edinmass]

Common problem. There is a very good chance it’s not internal to the case. The shifter tower has detent balls and springs on the shifter fork tubes. Often times the springs break, and the trans will pop out of gear on hills. Pull the cover and check to see if the cover has issues. 

[wayne sheldon]

I don't know how they were in 1930. However, '26/'27/'28 Warner Gear was having problems. The '27 Paige 6-45 my Dad bought back in '67 had less than 20,000 miles on it, and a shot transmission. It used a Warner Gear T-68A-1 transmission, which was also used by Auburn, Jordan, and several others in those years. The basic T68A-1 had variations on the input shaft, shift tower, and hand brake from one car marque to another. I advertised for several years in Hemmings looking for a replacement. Got exactly one response offering a (then) new old stock transmission for about twice what Dad had paid for the whole car! I also got dozens of letters from Auburn owners begging me for any leads I didn't want because their Auburn transmissions were also shot. I had basically given up ever finding a proper replacement transmission for the Paige, and was planning to adapt a transmission to fit, when one day, a local small club swap meet I went to I found a Warner Gear T68A-1 that had been removed from a '27 Jordan. The input shaft was too short, and the brake was a bit different. But I had those pieces from my original transmission. The Paige's tranny had a soft cluster gear, totally shot.The Jordan's cluster gear looked almost perfect. Between the two, I made one good tranny for the Paige.

I had talked with several Auburn owners years ago. Apparently, they often suffered from soft gears, different gears in different transmissions.

 

As edimass says, do check for other simple problems. And check the gear's conditions. See if the teeth are badly or abnormally worn. Studebakers of that era are generally solid reliable cars. I had a '25  for several years myself, and knew a lot of Studebaker owners. They don't usually have serious transmission problems. Warner may have corrected their quality issues by '30, or Studebaker may have imposed sufficient quality control that theirs didn't have problems. Based upon my discussions with Auburn owner back then, apparently it was only certain smaller models anf for only a couple years that had the problems.

[richard m]

Thanks for the replies.  Edinmass: I did pull the shifter housing off. I can’t tell for sure if the springs in the shift tube are functioning. When I put the shift forks in the center ie. neutral position as shown in the pic, I can push either ball in without feeling any resistance or springiness. Is that normal? When I slide the forks for and aft there feels like resistence/springiness. How hard is it to remove the tube to check the spring? Re. the internals, all the gears look good except second which as the second pic shows is noticeably worn. Could this amount of wear cause the trans to slide out of gear?Second gear is the only one where this happens. The cluster gears all look good.

[edinmass]

I'm not familiar with that particular model. Measure the location of the shift forks exactly, and then take it apart. It's a very simple transmission. My guess is you have detent spring problems. 

[richard m]

Thanks again Edinmass.  Took the shifter apart and found the springs and steel balls were fine.  No apparent or unusual wear on the tubes or shift forks.  I put it back together with the help of a dummy shaft to hold the balls and springs while I slid everything back in place. So looks like I will have to dig deeper into the trans.  I notice that the input shaft has some play, presumably from a worn ball bearing in the front of the case. Other than that and some wear on the 2nd speed sliding gear, the trans looks and sounds good when I spin it.  But its dropping out of second gear for a reason.  Just need to figure out what the reason is!  Thanks for your help.  

[mike6024]

You might benefit from replacing the springs with stronger ones, even if they are not broken. Longer "free-length." More pre-load when you install them.

 

"The free length of a spring is defined as the length of a compression spring without any force or load applied to it."

[mike6024]

http://www.studebakermuseum.org/store/studebaker-service-manuals

 

 

[edinmass]

The springs should be very stiff........almost ridiculously so.............in a non synchronized transmission, popping out of second is not very common. Most of the bearingS should be available. There may be shims or bushings that are worn along with the bearings. A quick look at the photo you posted doesn’t look like it’s been abused. Occasionally you can run into crazy problems like misaligned bell housing, and other hard to detect problems.

[richard m]

Yes the springs required considerable force to compress them in order to get the balls in sufficiently to get the parts back together.  I hope to still find the bearings etc I may need. Should have bought them years ago. This is an original car, 60,000 miles on the odometer, never been apart,  that I bought in 1985 drove for a few years then had to park in the garage due to engine issues. Been a long time but I am now getting back into it and hope to get it back on the road. Appreciate your help!  Richard

[mike6024]

This is what led me to think the springs had gotten weak with age and use (which you would expect to some degree)-

 

9 hours ago, richard m said:

I can push either ball in without feeling any resistance or springiness. Is that normal?

 

[wayne sheldon]

That sliding gear is a bit worn. Coupled with a sloppy bearing or weak detent springs could cause it to kick out of gear. Tighten things up a bit and it may be okay.

[richard m]

I will take the shifter apart again, measure the static length of the springs, mic the balls and tubes, then try shimming the springs a bit so they apply more force. I’ll have to see if a replacement 2nd gear is obtainable. Thanks all.

[edinmass]

Richard......when it comes to pre war transmissions, its always cheaper to buy one or two spare used transmissions, than it is to make a single gear. Just be aware that may shops will make a gear for you, but most will not hold up. I buy spare transmissions for all my keeper cars. Usually you can get one for little money when your not looking and don't need it. Calling around trying to get one when your car is down will always cost you more money. I lost the trans in our V-16 Cadillac last summer. I had a good used on on the shelf. I rebuilt it and swapped it out the same day....much better than the ....its apart for six months while I find parts and have stuff made. I paid 700 for the Cadillac transmission, the bearings were well over 800, and the few bushings I needed had to be made.......for a lot of money. Take your time, you will find what you need. Just keep working on other parts of the car.

[richard m]

Thanks. Good advice.  And thanks to all who replied!