Software question

[alsfarms]

I have one 3/4 view picture of an early antique automobile that I am currently restoring.  I only have this one picture to use as a pattern from which I can build the body.   Does anyone know of a new software development that would allow a 3/4 view picture manipulated to be a straight on side view that could then be used as a much more accurate picture rendition to take scale drawings from?  I will do what I need to do but would sure like to build as accurately as possible when I start fabricating the body.  Make any suggestions you can on this subject.  Your help is appreciated.

Thanks, Al

Edited November 30, 2019 by alsfarms
addition for clarity (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Al,

    If you ID the vehicle, someone here may have other photos...

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

I had given up trying to locate any additional pictures of the project I refer to above.  But lets try again, I have bits and pieces of a 1902-3-4 Cleveland 2 cylinder rear entrance touring car.  It would be great if someone, on the AACA forums, may have a collection of early automobile literature that would contain several nice shots of this automobile.  Pictures straight on from the side and front would be good.  Also a shot from the top with no body would help, (actually anything will help).  The engine is 15-16 hp two cylinder opposed, three speed progressive transmission, right hand steering wheel, and a slope nose hood.  Please look through your early literature and see if you can help me.  I have only seen two pictures of the above listed automobile and both are the same sales picture that I currently have.

Al

Edited December 1, 2019 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Al,

    The Standard Catalog of American Cars has a right side photo on page 309 marked 1903 Cleveland, Tonneau, WLB.

 

Like one of these?

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Al:  You can use a basic CAD program to lay some 2-point perspective lines on top of the car image and scale from there.  Read up on 2-point perspective and "vanishing points".  

 

Here is some info on how to create the perspective lines and sets of rectangles or triangles to figure out X, Y, and Z dimensions.

http://www.wileyvws.com/WileyArchitecture/9781119035664/60_Measuring_Depth_in_Perspective.html

 

In the "Our Cars and Restoration Projects" threads here on the AACA Forums, Sloth has been posting about his 1903 Cleveland - and I note that you have been following it. 

Here is the link to Sloth's posts:  https://forums.aaca.org/topic/335097-1903-cleveland-roadster-project/

 

I grabbed his image of the car and copied it here.  I pasted the image into my CAD program (TurboCAD Pro) and drew some lines to find the two vanishing points.  The green lines follow the direction of the front of the car above the radiator and the of the dashboard top [Edit:  bottom of the front seats]  Where they converge is one vanishing point.  I drew the two red lines following where the wheels touch the ground and the lower edge of the seats.  I then drew the blue vertical lines from the tire contact points up to intersect the red lines.  This creates the first rectangle.  Sloth posted that the wheelbase is 6 feet (72 inches), so that sets the scale for one side of the rectangle.  He also posted that the wheels are 28" with 3" clincher tires, so the overall tire height should be about 34".  We can scale off the height of the rectangle from the tires.  I then drew orange diagonal lines to find the center of the rectangle in perspective space.  By subdividing the rectangle following the directions in the above link, you should be able to scale off the body dimensions that you need.

 

I think you can do this in the $129.99 version of DesignCAD 3D Max from the same supplier of my high-end CAD.  You can do the drawings for your car body using it.   

https://www.turbocad.com/designcad/

 

Good luck. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

Does your book suggest any specifications on the car represented by the top picture you posted?  That looks seriously close to my car.  They made both a smaller single cylinder and also a larger 78" wheelbase two cylinder, (which is what I have).  The engine sure looks to be a two cylinder, from what I can see of the intake manifold.  I have read where several different body builders were used by the Cleveland Automobile Company, so slight differences in body can be accepted.  I have noted a few subtle body differences from the very few pictures I have seen.  Thanks for looking Mark.

Al

[Mark Shaw]

This is the website where you can see several body styles similar to yours; all made in Cleveland OH.  Perhaps one or two coach builders provided bodies for all the car companies in Cleveland?  http://www.earlyamericanautomobiles.com/1902.htm

 

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the reference.  I have poured over that sight many times trying to come up with a real good picture of a very accurate body for the 1902-3-4 Cleveland.  If I am going to build a body I may as well build it a proper as I can.  I am simply not coming up with virtually any good original pictures, sketches or specifications.  I am sure if more of them were built, it would improve my chances.

Al

[Mark Shaw]

Al,

   Many restorations have been delayed due to lack of specs.  If you plan to have it judged by AACA or others, ask them for the specs. (I doubt they have them) 

Since there really are none for your car, you can move forward unencumbered.  If it were me, I would just build it to the best of my knowledge and have fun with it. 

Good luck...

[alsfarms]

Good Morning Mark,

Your advice is well received.  At least I do have one good picture and also the picture you shared above.  Does the Standard Book of American cars also list any technical specifications that would be particular to the 1903 Cleveland rear entrance tonneau you posted a picture of?  I would like to confirm basics to make sure that the cars are in fact based on the same wheel base and tire size.  Engine size and transmission would also be good to confirm.  I do feel that I can proceed with set, patterns, layout the frame, assemble and get to the point that I can build the body.  Using information I can glean and scale from the photographs I have. Per Gary Ash,  I have ordered a Photoshop ELements Software set that I think I can use and correct the perspective of the photograph and allow for a straight on view and more accurate scaling of the body.  Thanks for your comments!

Al

[Mark Shaw]

Al,

     My Standard Catalog shows all cars were chain drive with RH drive.

    The 1902-1903 Cleveland Touring was a 2 cylinder 15 HP,  with a 78" wheel Base.

     The   "         "             "          Roadster was a 1 cylinder (no HP listed) with a 72" wheel Base.

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  You confirmed what I had thought, similar specifications for 1902-3 Cleveland automobiles.  Now I am just waiting for the Photoshop software so I can see if I can manipulate the picture and get better and more accurate scale measurements.

Al

[alsfarms]

Is anyone using the new Photoshop Elements 2020?  I just received my new software and would like to know the best training or helps to get familiar with the operation.  Looks like a new skill for me and I am not the best with computer programs!

Al

[19tom40]

I have been using Photo Shop for over 10 years and find the best help on the Adobe site. The Tutorial is the best way to get started. There is also a book called Photo Shop Elements For Dummies  that does a pretty good job of explaining how to use it.

 

That said, I don't believe you can do what you want with PhotoShop. It will rotate the object, but your picture does not have the parts that you are looking for, so the program cannot show them. The best program to do what you want is a 3D cad program and there is a long learning curve. You can get an idea of how these programs work by downloading Sketchup free.

 

https://www.sketchup.com/

[alsfarms]

Hello 19tom40,

Thanks for your reference to Sketchup.  I am going to be down with a surgery and while down I will play with both the new Photoshop and also Sketchup.  I do think that I can manipulate the drawing of the Cleveland to get a better straight side view.  From that point I can be much more accurate with the scale drawing I need to make prior to building a body.  I may have to fill in the dots as to what the back of the body looks like or build from another picture of a Cadillac rear entrance car.

Al 

[alsfarms]

Thanks....

[cahartley]

If you have Windows 10 you have Paint 3D.

I've never needed or used it but your question intriques me so I gave it a whirl.

It will do exactly what you want it to do and you can resize the image within 3D as well.

Photoshop Elements will not do what you want.

Perhaps the full version of Photoshop will but that'll take a sizeable chunk out of your budget as well as add a fairly significant learning curve.

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Carhartley,  Now your response to my inquiry has me intrigued!  I am using Windows 7.  Could you drop me a note at my open email address of:

alsfarms@hotmail.com  ?  I want to pursue, further, this discussion with you.  With this Coronavirus thing on top of us, we may all have more quiet time in the house doing such things as correcting a picture/perspective in order to use the image for scaling and building a body.

Regards,

Al