Franklin is Here!

[Brooklyn Beer]

OK so first mission was to stop over oiling of the valve cages leading to a smokey oily mess. Following the manual it says to turn in the adjustment screw to slow down the oiling but to never turn it in all the way. I am guessing that stops the oil flow like we want and we just hand oil as prescribed correct?  It doesn't say if turning in all the way stops the flow to the valve cages in total.

[f147pu]

The best way to adjust the oiler is to empty the reservoir and hand oil as needed.

 

Gordon Howard

[Walt G]

For the 40 years I owned my series 153, I would take the felt pads that lay on top of the valve mechanism and push into a small bucket of oil, then once soaked, hand wring them out , that leaves enough oil in them for several hundreds of miles in very hot weather. When I drove my car back and forth to the trek from long island it was over 600 miles just to get there and back. I used to put on all total, near to 1,000 miles in one week  never an issue with running the pads dry. The advice how to oil the pads ( bucket and wring out) was given to me by Dutch Kern the legendary Franklin mechanical repair guy.

[PFitz]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:43 PM, f147pu said:

The best way to adjust the oiler is to empty the reservoir and hand oil as needed.

 

Gordon Howard

 

Reservoir ?  Gordon, he'd have to empty the crank case. It's a Series 15.

 

Unscrew the Bowen oiler's knurled brass cover and turn the hex head screw all the way in until it seats. That will cut off the oil flow to the cages. Make sure the brass cover is back on tight. The late George Clapp sold a lot of repro replacements for originals that fell off while driving.   

 

The Franklin recommended method of how much oil on the valve pads is enough -  pinch the pads between thumb and index finger. If the felt shows wet with oil around where your pinching, then that's enough oil.

 

To stop the cages leaking, usually involves replacing the cork gasket under the cage and sealing it to the cylinder head with "Hylomar" gasket sealer (web search a source). It's the only oil proof sealer able to hold up to the very high Franklin cylinder head temps under the cages. Even my 50+ year favorite gasket sealer - Permatex Aviation Form-a-gasket won't last there.    

 

To seal the threads at the tops of the push rod tubes - Teflon Plumber's paste. I know you already have that, Chris.

 

For the base of the tubes and the tappet guides, cut new 1/16 inch thick Felpro gasket material (Velmoid) from your auto parts store and seal with Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket.

 

When putting the cages back on, the compensating stud nut - the long hex nut next to a rocker arm - must always be the first tightened. Then tighten the two intake side cage nuts.  Then turn the pushrod tubes down until they press on the gaskets and tighten the nut of the clamping bar. Then tighten the jam nut at the top of each tube. All in that order to keep cage/rocker arm geometry for quietist possible valve train.

 

And, never, never, never use silicon gasket sealer anywhere on a Franklin engine !!!!

 

Paul

Edited September 30, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

6 hours ago, PFitz said:

 

Reservoir ?  Gordon, he'd have to empty the crank case. It's a Series 15.

 

Unscrew the Bowen oiler's knurled brass cover and turn the hex head screw all the way in until it seats. That will cut off the oil flow to the cages. Make sure the brass cover is back on tight. The late George Clapp sold a lot of repro replacements for originals that fell off while driving.   

 

The Franklin recommended method of how much oil on the valve pads is enough -  pinch the pads between thumb and index finger. If the felt shows wet with oil around where your pinching, then that's enough oil.

 

To stop the cages leaking, usually involves replacing the cork gasket under the cage and sealing it to the cylinder head with "Hylomar" gasket sealer (web search a source). It's the only oil proof sealer able to hold up to the very high Franklin cylinder head temps under the cages. Even my 50+ year favorite gasket sealer - Permatex Aviation Form-a-gasket won't last there.    

 

To seal the threads at the tops of the push rod tubes - Teflon Plumber's paste. I know you already have that, Chris.

 

For the base of the tubes and the tappet guides, cut new 1/16 inch thick Felpro gasket material (Velmoid) from your auto parts store and seal with Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket.

 

When putting the cages back on, the compensating stud nut - the long hex nut next to a rocker arm - must always be the first tightened. Then tighten the two intake side cage nuts.  Then turn the pushrod tubes down until they press on the gaskets and tighten the nut of the clamping bar. Then tighten the jam nut at the top of each tube. All in that order to keep cage/rocker arm geometry for quietist possible valve train.

 

And, never, never, never use silicon gasket sealer anywhere on a Franklin engine !!!!

 

Paul

Thanks Paul, finally found the chapter on the oiler in the manual and got that taken care of.  Now I think it is just burning off old oil I could not get too.

 

The gaskets on the cages are in near new shape. Would I need a new dry gasket for the sealer?  And this is the sealer?  

Now for the rest of what your talking about concerning placement of other gasket material I am going to have to remove a cover and re-read what your saying.  I am posting a picture from the manual so maybe this will help you explain a little better.  I think I got it but being I have never even turned a nut on this car yet I want to be sure. I have to make little gaskets for the bottom of the tubes which I guess is a tulip and the top needs the paste. The top of each tube is threaded for the jam nut and the paste goes under that and on the tube as it slides into the cage.  And I need to look deeper to understand your process of putting the "cages" back on. In the manual I see nothing referred too as cages.  I see walking beam case.  I do not see the compensating stud nut pictured.  I will remove a cover tomorrow and get a better view. Understand most of what your saying. I just would hate to take something apart and get lost. 

 

The push rod tube is then turned (tightened) down snug.  Is it threaded into the "cage"?  And the jam nut is what makes the seal of the tube to the cage? 

 

The drawing is in the manual helps a lot.     

 

The jam nut is what makes the seal of the tube to the cage?  And I am presuming that when this process is all done I will have do walking beam clearances?  I am not removing the walking beams from the cages correct, only the entire cage assembly intact ?   Manual has different terms is all is my confusion 

[PFitz]

Chris,

 

Yup, Hylomar high temp gasket sealer.

 

The valve cages have three holes through the bottom that can leak excess pad oil that has puddled. The oval "well" that the valves and springs are  down in, and the two pushrod tube holes.

 

Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about the valve cover gasket. Under the cage there is a rectangular gasket, with two holes - one each around the valve springs - that seals the cage to the top of the cylinder head. You can only see the edge of it under the cages from the intake side of the motor.  

 

It's not shown in the Parts Book exploded views, but it is listed on page 709, drawing number 49153.  

Oil puddles down in that oval "well"  by the valve spring seats and guides and if that gasket isn't sealed, that's where the most oil leakage comes from that runs down the cylinders and blows off the cooling fins unto everything downstream of that.

 

In 1931 and later, Franklin did away with the unthreaded through-hole for the pushrod tubes that used a nut and gasket on the pushrod tube under the cage and another nut on the top of the tube inside the cage. They threaded the cage and then there was only a need for the nut and gasket under the cage.  The pushrod tube and lock nut of the earlier pushrod tubes stuck up and caused puddling of oil,... especially with oil being pumped to the cages. So, it contributed to leaks under the cages and not as much oil could run down the pushrods to lube the pushrod brass bushings inside the tube. Starting with the 31 and the Bowen oiler using crankcase oil to lube the valves, the tubes are made shorter and when threaded into the cages, they don't stick up like the earlier tubes. Then the oil can drain down the tubes, back to the crankcase and do a better job of oiling the tube bushings instead of puddling in the bottom of the cage.  

 

Because of the clearance in the 31 pushrod tube threads and cages, the tube upper gaskets don't seal 100%. That's why the Teflon Plumber's paste to seal those threads. Then there is no need of the upper gaskets and the lock nut can be tightened right against the underside of the cage.

 

BTW, if you look closely at the wire bails that hold the valve covers on, you'll see that they have one short bent end and one longer. See picture below.

 

The short end goes into the hole on the intake manifold side of the cage. If they are reversed, sometimes the longer end can reach through the cage hole and hit the intake valve spring making noise.  Easy way to put them on correctly is to always have the point of the loop in the middle of the bail pointing toward intake side of the motor.  

 

Paul

Edited October 1, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

Ok, I am gathering your list of materials and the condition your explaining of cooling fins covered in oil is exactly what I am seeing. The oiler is now turned off.

 

So I am assuming when I remove the hold down yoke for the push rod tubes and the 4 nuts that hold the valve cage to the top of cylinder I should just be able to lift every off straight up or do I remove the walking beams as well?

 

Concerning the valve cage gasket, Do I need to make my own or is there a source?

 

I am seeing a better picture now of this task in my mind

[PFitz]

Yes, undo the tube yoke nut and three cage nuts - the tall compensating nut down in the front of the cage and the two nuts on the intake side of the cage.

 

As you lift the cage up, the tube bases will clear the cylinder head exhaust manifold runner if you gently spread the bottom of the tubes only enough to scrap by either side of the runner.  Be careful the tappets and tappet guides don't fall out of the bottom of the pushrod tubes unto the floor. And, don't mix up which holes the tappets came out of. Each is worn to that cam lobe and should go back to it.  I use a block of 2x6 with rows of 12 holes drilled partway into it to hold the tappets, push rods, and tubes all in their proper sequence as they come off the engine, or finished at the parts cleaning tank. Less chance of mixing them up.

 

Fast (cheep) lacquer thinner and paper towels does a very good job of cleaning the oil off under the cages so that the Hylomar will stick and not leak oil.

 

You can make your own cage gaskets out of 1/4 - 5/16 inch thick sheet cork, if you can find it. Or order the set of six and a set of the tube gaskets from Club member Jeff Hasslen. He makes new Franklin engine gasket sets and felt valve pads. He's listed in the Club roster and on the website in the For Sale section.

 

Paul

[Brooklyn Beer]

Contacted Jeff Hasslen and he will get back to me when he is back from the midwest week. Says he has what I need.  Do I have to remove the walking beams prior to removing the valve cage?

[Brooklyn Beer]

Paul I am having an issue with my downshifting of the car when it is hot out, say in the mid to upper 90's. It seems after a mile or so of driving and when I come to stop at a light or stop sign it is taking quite some time for things to wind down in the trans to get it back into first without a little grind.  Same with first into second even with a double clutch and extended time between going from gear to gear.  Second to third is fine.   When cool in the morning not so much. I was going to do a change on the trans oil regardless when I do the engine oil and was going to wait until we get some normal 55 degree mornings and 78 degree days to see if the gear box oil thickens up and slows things down faster when clutch is depressed.  Would a thicker oil say Penrite T250 be better in my hotter climate when summer comes back around?  And changing the gear box oil right now for what we consider cool weather driving of 50-75 degree's what would you recommend? 

[PFitz]

2 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Contacted Jeff Hasslen and he will get back to me when he is back from the midwest week. Says he has what I need.  Do I have to remove the walking beams prior to removing the valve cage?

 No need to remove the walking beams.  If you look closely you'll see that you can't get all the shafts out of them even if you wanted to, because the cages on either side are in the way.

 

Yes, the gear oil could be too thin. Although I've never had that trouble with an SAE 90-140 (GL-4 or GL-5) in hot weather when the clutch is adjusted correctly.  The 250 is a bit over kill and may make shifting tough when it's cooler. You can try a straight SAE 140 gear oil,  SAE 140 is what the Franklin specification is for 31 (and revised by a service bulletin for earlier transmissions) when the Saybolt oil range listed in their service bulletin is converted to the SAE gear oil range. 

 

If it still grinds some or "clunks' as it goes into gear after waiting, one thing that can cause that is the clutch disc may have been over heated and warped at some time in the past and when reheated it can warp enough to cause the disc to drag.  

 

Or, lots of people don't get the clutch disc clearance, and/or, the pedal linkage adjusted properly. The  clutch disc may not have sufficient clearance and grabs too close to the floor boards. As things heat up under the floor boards and inside the bellhousing, the disc clearances get reduced by the thermal growth of all the parts involved.   The clutch should grab when the pedal is about half way up from the toe board.  Another cause is not enough travel of the clutch pedal linkage. You should be able to push the pedal down almost to the toe board.  

 

Paul 

Edited October 3, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

More stuff to check out. The clutch feels good when I do a comparison to the clutch I just did in the more "modern" 1946 Dodge. Engages in about the same place. Am assuming it would adjust in the Franklin in about the same manner?  But the clutch really does feel good.  No chatter. Disengages and engages nice. Just seems to take a while for it to wind down when hot.  

 

I would not think about going to the 250 with winter coming but in summer we have 4 months of 90 - 100 degree driving time. I have heard talk of 140 "green"?  I would like to change it just for piece of mind.  I think car might also have one of your oil filter mods.

 

Have one walking beam with a little tap to it as well.  Have not gotten into that yet. Still making a list of things.  Like the dual trumpet horns that sound like dying sheep...

[PFitz]

I've no idea what your Dodge is like, or what design and materials the clutch system is.

 

If the linkage is properly adjusted, a Franklin clutch pedal should have enough travel to almost go to the toe board. There should be very little resistance for the first 1/2 -1 inch of pedal travel - known as "free play".  Then more resistance is felt as the tension of the clutch pressure plate springs come into play beyond that. That first weaker-spring distance is just the pedal return spring tension before the cross shaft yoke starts contacting and  moving the throwout bearing.. Without that free play  the bearing is always engaged and will wear out quickly. 

 

The clutch should start to grab when the pedal is about half way up from near the toe board. If it grabs lower than that it needs to have the adjusting ring backed off counterclockwise a bit so that there is more clearance for the disc between the flywheel and the pressure plate.  If it grabs near the top of the pedal travel the ring has to be turned clockwise to take up too much clearance that may allow the disc to slip under load in high gear. 

 

BTW, comparing  Franklins to other makes and later designs is how some get in trouble. If your going to use comparisons, I'd recommend only comparing to other Franklins of the same year that are known to be in good running order. 

 

Franklins have solid lifters so some "tapping" is normal. Those who are used to later cars with hydraulic lifters are not used to hearing it and sometimes think something is wrong.  You can check which cage/walking beam is the culprit by using a mechanic's stethoscope or a length of garden hose held from ear to the parts suspected.  

 

However, there's about a dozen things that can make excessive valve train tapping. Key word being :excessive".   Wear is the usual cause. But even cage misalignment is one noise contributor that often gets missed. When you get all the cages off I'll go over what to check for wear and then how to properly realign the cages.  

 

Paul

Edited October 3, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[PFitz]

There's two other things you can do to reduce valve cage oil leaks.

 

1. Glue new cover cork gaskets to the top edge of the cages. The corks can squirm around on the narrow edge of the cages and not give a consistently good seal. Buy gluing them to the cage you get the best alignment and seal so that's one less joint that can leak.

 

I used slow-cure marine grade epoxy glue. It sticks very well to clean, new cork, and it can take very high temperatures. However, traces of oil will effect how well epoxys cure, so the  edges of the cages must be completely free of oil. Washing with lacquer thinner and paper towels works best and will not leave any solvent residue to affect the glue curing.

 

2. Another place that weeps oil are the cover bail holes on the intake side of the cages.  Those holes go all the way through the side of the cage.  With the pumping action of the intake spring right next to that hole, oil will migrate out them. What I do with cages is drill and tap those holes for a 1/4-20 grade 2 bolt. Loctite the bolt in with it's end flush with the inner face of the cage. Cut off the excess outside and grind flush. Then pin punch and redrill the bail wire hole, but not all the way through.  To get a better cover seal on the cork gasket, I drill the new hole a bit lower than the center axis of the bolt. That gives the bail a bit more tension.  And, by not having the new hole go all the way through, that prevents any chance of putting the bail wire on so that the long bent end could contact the intake valve spring as mentioned in my previous post.

 

Paul 

Edited October 3, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

When I saw his pictures on Facebook it looked to me like the cork gaskets under the value covers were perhaps 1/6 inch thick and as a result not thick enough for the wire bail to get good tension on the cover.  If I recall the vale cover gaskets were pretty thick - 3/16 inch plus.

[PFitz]

56 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

When I saw his pictures on Facebook it looked to me like the cork gaskets under the value covers were perhaps 1/6 inch thick and as a result not thick enough for the wire bail to get good tension on the cover.  If I recall the vale cover gaskets were pretty thick - 3/16 inch plus.

 Originals are 1/8 inch, John.   Hasslen replacements may be a bit thicker than that ?????

 

I have made 1/4 inch thick ones to get a better seal, but then it's real tough to get the bails on over the covers until the cork squashes down some after a while of use.

 

Paul

Edited October 5, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, PFitz said:

 Originals are 1/8 inch, John.   Hasslen replacements may be a bit thicker than that ?????

 

I have made 1/4 inch thick ones to get a better seal, but then it's real tough to get the bails on over the covers until the cork squashes down some after a while of use.

 

Paul

Paul, I use to just pull the tip of the wire bail out of the cage - when I decided I wanted my CCCA First Junior it was the best way to avoid chipping the paint on the covers. 

[PFitz]

1 minute ago, John_Mereness said:

Paul, I use to just pull the tip of the wire bail out of the cage - when I decided I wanted my CCCA First Junior it was the best way to avoid chipping the paint on the covers. 

John,

That's what many sidedraft motor owners learn to do.

 

But with the thicker than original cover cork gaskets, getting the ends of the  cover bails back in the holes can be a challenge …..  that sometimes leads to broken bails.  Don't ask how I know,.....

 

Paul 

[John_Mereness]

10 minutes ago, PFitz said:

John,

That's what many sidedraft motor owners learn to do.

 

But with the thicker than original cover cork gaskets, getting the ends of the  cover bails back in the holes can be a challenge …..  that sometimes leads to broken bails.  Don't ask how I know,.....

 

Paul 

Yep, been there done that.  Also, slipped a few times to stab the gaskets.