28pontiac Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I have a '28 Pontiac that sits too much, hence the needle valve stuck in the carb this spring. I cleaned/sanded it smooth, but I would feel more comfortable replacing it with a new needle (or complete kit is ok too). The car has always run fantastic, but I am not sure what make/model this carb is, (doubt it is original). It has no stampings, casting numbers, or tags on the outside. The only numbers I can find are cast inside,....10-432 in the fuel bowl and 227-99 under the float, by pump. In looking at the pics provided, can anyone identify this carb, and possibly point me to where I can get a needle or kit? I am reluctant to send it out because it is currently working and is otherwise in great shape, plus I have had poor luck in sending things out. With a couple major car events I go to upcoming, I would feel better knowing it is right. Both of the good older carb shops in my Detroit area I know of have recently closed. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 What is that tiny logo just above the numbers? It looks a bit like PC. I wonder if that will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The original should be a Marvel? If that is so, the Carburetor Shop says the identification numbers should be stamped in tiny numbers either " on the underside of the bowl, or on the edge of the carburetor mounting flange. The number will be in the format 10-nnnn, where nnnn is some number generally LARGER than 500. Some Pontiac and Oakland units have a stamped “O” or “P” preceding the 10. " http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carburetor_ID.htm#IDMarvelSchebler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 This is one of the Borg/Warner "universal carburetors". Originally designed by Rayfield, it was produced by Marvel/Schebler after Marvel, Schebler, Rayfield, Tillotson, Johnson, Swan, and other carburetor companies were acquired by Borg/Warner. It originally came with water decals sporting the "name du jour". Of course, the water decal lasted until the first fuel leak. I have seen decals of Marvel/Schebler, Wizard, and Johnson on boxed new old stock units. I am reasonably sure there were others. The carburetors were sold through automotive companies such as Western Auto, J.C. Whitney, and Warshawski to customers too frugal to purchase a gasket set for their original carburetor. As far as I am aware, these were sold as "throw-away" carburetors. No parts were ever available. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28pontiac Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Hi Guys, thanks for the input. The original carb was listed in the Pontiac books as a Carter. This carb does have a fuel pump circuit in it as the original did, and has always worked GREAT!! At some time, the past owner rebuilt this unit as it is still in great visual condition, so whomever did it for him was able to get parts somewhere for it. I gently vertically sanded the needle rubber with 6000 grit model car paper to smooth the slight indentation in the rubber caused from a lot of sitting, which caused it to stick shut to begin with. After putting it back in, the car starts and runs fine, but with events like The Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village still upcoming, I was hoping to find new parts to put in mainly for peace of mind. This peace of mind includes not getting hollered at by my significant other in the event of a break down! Not that THAT would ever happen on a 90 year old car I'm sure! Also, as mentioned, this is not the original carb. There are no stampings on the outside at all, probably had a decal as Jon stated, but there are the 2 numbers cast inside as stated above. Thanks for the info on the Borg Warner carbs. Jon, might there be some sort of kit or interchangeable parts for this unit? If I take it back off again, is there pictures, dimensions, detailed drawings,...anything I could send you or anyone you may recommend that would be of assistance in tracking down parts, mainly a needle valve? Thank you for your time and input. Bill Edited July 10, 2018 by 28pontiac (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Bill - there were three different carbs used by Pontiac in 1928: (1) Carter 101s, (2) Carter 109s, and (3) Marvel 10-714. The two Carters were extremely early production. I could probably check the Master Parts book and determine by serial number when the Marvel was adopted, but don't really want to spend the time to do so. Both of the Carters used an external accelerator pump, with a housing made of zinc alloy which has cracked to pieces. I haven't seen an original that was useable in the last 50 years! To use the Carter, one would have to machine a new pump housing and pump assembly from aluminum (or some other metal). The Marvel is much more common, but the entire carb is made from the same zinc alloy as the Carter pump. Plus it is a Marvel. The Borg/Warner carb was designed as a throwaway, and sold as a throwaway. To my knowledge there are no surviving prints, never have been any parts. Anything you need will have to be fabricated at your local machine shop. Any professional carburetor restorer can cut gaskets, fuel valves, etc., as needed. Expect to pay dearly to have parts machined, as Marvel/Schebler did NOT believe in S.A.E. standard sizes. Virtually anything threaded will require either having a custom tap/die made, or single-point the threads. One thread they seemed to like on needle seat threads was 3/8 x 28. I have spent a small fortune on tooling for Marvel and Schebler parts. I do have a significant amount of original Pontiac literature, should you be interested. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28pontiac Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 Hey Jon, thank you for your information. I am ok with not having an original carb, and I do know the problems with older materials as they all deteriorate over time. Interesting history on the carb companies though, thanks. I am still hopeful (though I understand your knowledge of these carbs) that there are parts available,.....someone rebuilt this unit back in the 90's. I believe there must be interchangeable parts that work in these for them to have done this, it is only logical. Nothing appears to have been custom made, not even the gaskets. We lost the only 2 'old' type carb companies locally who may have had an inventory of these older carb parts, like needle valves that I could compare mine to. I will figure this one out, may take time though. But thank you anyway for your time and insight. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefit Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 I also had the same problem found out that a small amount of super cylinder lube in the gas would keep the needle from sticking end of problem. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28pontiac Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 Thanks Mike, sounds like that may help. These carbs are not to intricate, so I suppose they would not gunk up with a small amount as you describe. Are you talking about something like the Lucas Oil upper cylinder lubricant like they sell for fuel injector cars? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefit Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Yes that will work. That problem is only with the needles with the rubber tip ( vitron ) ??? Steel needles were ok. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now