Crank oil seal install

[Summershandy]

And yet another question because I just...don't...know haha....I'm changing the oil seal on the '54 straight 8 and the manual says to use gasket cement. I did have to chip out the old cork so I'm assuming this is where the cement goes to hold the cork in place? Unsure of the term "cement". It also says to apply a graphite lubricant. I assume on the face of the ring? Lastly, you're telling me that this cork seal spins against the timing chain cover and actually seals? My mind won't let me comprehend that right now. Sure would suck having to go back in if it was done incorrectly. Thanks!

[Guest]

Of course it seals, at least my original did for over 280,000 miles.  Now the replacement has been in there for 220,000 miles, as it wasn't leaking I didn't replace it when I rebuilt my engine for the third time.

[Summershandy]

I had a front end leak and wasn't sure where it was coming from so I'm changing the oil seal, timing gasket and oil pan gasket. Still wondering what gasket cement is?

[Bloo]

Good question. Probably hardening shellac-based gasket sealer like "indian head" or maybe permatex #1.

 

Maybe "aviation form-a-gasket"?.

 

My best guess is "indian head". Get the real thing if you go that way, I bought a bottle of some imitation at Oreilly or Autozone, and it took 2 and a half days to set up, and I'm not sure it ever really hardened. It was more like Permatex #2 than indian head. Not that theres anything wrong with Permatex #2, but thats not what I thought I was buying.

 

The graphite would have to go on the sliding part.

[Summershandy]

Understood Bloo. I quickly googled gasket cement and the local hardware store came up with fireplace or wood stove gasket cement. Not sure if that's the same. Never heard of Indian Head up here in Canada but will keep shellac-based in mind. Thanks. 

[Bloo]

I seriously doubt the wood stove stuff is right.

 

They just mean gasket glue. The modern ones were not available in the 50s when that book was written. There are basically 2 kinds of shellac gasket goop, hardening and non-hardening. If I were picking something for that, I would use hardening.

 

Gasgacinch is like rubber cement or the modern "gorilla snot" (aka 3m weatherstrip cement) and may have been available in the 50s.

 

I don't know what is in aviation form-a-gasket. Maybe shellac, but it is somehow different than the other shellac compounds.

 

Indian Head is a runny watery shellac compound that you put on with a dauber brush that is inside the little brown glass (maybe plastic now) bottle. It has probably been around since the 20s. You can glue a piece of cork on with this, weight it overnight while it dries, and it is REALLY there, hard to remove. It is my best guess for what they meant by "gasket cement" in the early 50s. I am interested to see what others have to say.

 

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-indian-head-gasket-shellac-compound/

https://fortnine.ca/en/permatex-indian-head-gasket-shellac-compound

https://www.amazon.ca/Permatex-20539-Indian-Shellac-Compound/dp/B0008KLOG6

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Summershandy]

An actual Permatex product? Interesting. I'll try snooping around locally. Thanks!

[Summershandy]

So far I've found Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant/Adhesive locally. 

 

"Fast-drying all-purpose sealant dries to a highly tacky, non-brittle film. A reliable general adhesive remains tacky indefinitely can be applied in advance for convenience in assembly. Remains effective at temperatures of -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C). Sensor-safe. Resists gasoline, oil, antifreeze, axle lube, kerosene, propane and butane."

 

I'll keep looking for Indian Head but I might have to order it. 

[Summershandy]

Hey Bloo! I didn't catch that FortNine link. That's the same place I've ordered stuff for my bike. It's like one province over from me in Canada. I should be able to order from them. In the meanwhile, what do we think of the high tack?

[john hess]

I use Honda Bond for gasket sealing... Works for me... No leaks on my recent rebuild.... Also just put some type of grease on wear surface of cork before installing..  Honda Bond should be available at your local auto parts store... John.....

[Bloo]

High tack wouldn't be my first choice, I don't recall it being that stout. I'm not sure though as I havent had a bottle of it for a long time. It works well for non-moving gaskets though.

 

I think in  a pinch, you could use Permatex Ultra Black or Ultra Gray silicone, applied very thin, on perfectly clean surfaces, and weighted until cured.  SIlicones in general are mechanically too weak for duty like this, but the formula seems to keep changing, and the current "grip" of those particular ones is fairly amazing.

 

Hondabond, which john hess suggested, is extremely good gasket (and no-gasket!) sealer. That should work.

 

It baffles me that it is hard to get Indian Head in Canada. There must be or have been have been a similar Canadian product that I just don't know the name of.

 

Can you get #1 Permatex?

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Summershandy]

Products such as Indian Head are hard to come by in my neck of the woods. It is available in Canada however. #1 Permatex is readily available and I just read up on it. Sounds like a good choice especially for cork. I'm really liking that one! Never heard of Hondabond. I'm a frequent visitor of the states and it always makes me envious when I find products available that we just don't get....our city keeps promoting "shop local" and by store and not online....duh.

[RussJagoau]

The way that I have installed these seals in the past is as Summershandy states, ie the cork seal is the stationary element of the seal so it should be glued or cemented to the timing cover , the pressed steel shroud thats keyed to the crank is the rotating face , hence the contact face between the 2 elements is where one sealing surface is, the second one is the hub O.D on the harmonic balancer to the I.D of the cork inner face. 
You wouldnt want the cork face rotating against the timing cover  ?? but between the inner face of the cork ring  and the pressed steel shroud that rotates with the crank.  
 Non hardening Permatex on these corks when cemented or glued to the timing cover   seems to work well so far.  

[Summershandy]

The cork seal was in fact cemented into the steel shroud and was rotating against the timing cover. Here's a quote from the manual with the picture.

 

"Install new timing sprocket cover oil seal on crankshaft after coating face of seal with graphite lubricant (Fig 6-12)"

"Apply gasket cement to gasket surface of timing sprocket cover and install cover and gasket on engine so hole in cover is centered on crankshaft, and cover oil seal bears evenly on cover with equal areas all the way around."

 

The cork seal fits very tight within the steel shroud. This is some confusing english to me. 

 

 

[Guest]

The cork is stationary in the housing that turns with the crankshaft.  The sealing is between the spinning cork and the timing cover.  Many GM engines used this style of seal (in various sizes) from the 20's until at least the mid 50's.

[Summershandy]

Tis what I thought Tinindian. Thanks for the confirmation. Maybe it's the other way around in other applications but I couldn't see that in this one.