Has anyone done advanced radiator repair on 1930-1980 type?

[F&J]

I have a stock original 1932 Ford 4 cylinder radiator with perfect tanks, perfect oval tubes, and fins. 

 

Several small leaks where the individual oval tube is soldered into the plate called a "header".   The typical header plate design from 1930s to at least 1980, has punched oval holes for each tube.  This punching leaves a 45 degree gulley/bevel shape at each oval hole.  These gulleys are filled level with solder.  These gulleys are facing the air side of the plate, not inside of the water tank.  The few leaks I have are at the top header, and the solder appears to have dissolved or vanished, leaving an "empty gulley" at these tube solder joints. 90% of the tubes have the gulleys filled with solder and none look corroded at all.

 

I searched the net and youtube.  One video shows the radiator shop trying to flux-clean that entire exposed side of the header plate, then poking solder wire in and around these gulleys.  He has the tank removed, and heats from what would be the water side of the header.  It looks sketcthy, as I can't see how any/all corroded tube joints can get clean enough.  Several comments placed by viewers on the video, said he should have removed the header to clean everything first.

 

Then a web picture search, showed a new radiator "core" being made, but he soldered from the water side, but that does not fill the gulley side at all.  Seems sketchy.

 

So I'd like to know if anyone here has removed a header plate from the tubes, cleaned it all, and had success getting the plate back on the core tube assembly?  I know I need to remove the top tank first, and it looks easy to do that as it is just soldered, not crimped like a newer type tank.

 

Pic from a Hemmings site, showing a 1930-1931 Model A core and header plate with the dimpled punched header plate. (same as my 32 design). The article does not say anything about replacing/resoldering a "removed" header plate. 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by F&J (see edit history)

[robert b]

F&j there are a few things to consider before attempting repair , what is the core state that is are the fins in good order and still attached to the tubes , are the tubes seamed, if so is the soldered seam in tact, if you have only a few tube to header solder " bloming " that is the solder is decayed and has fallen out than they can be sand blasted and resoldered by a qualified radiator repairer . The number one thing is that the brass must be clean and bright before attempting any form of repair. Dont try to remove the header from the core you can do to much damage to the tube seams and very difficult to seal .The type of torch to be used is most important and the flame temp is critical to not over heat the tubes along side them. This is just the being of the things to consider before attempting such a repair . More info if needed ,some pics would help me give more info . I am a radiator repairer of some thirty years and a lot of vintage and veteran repairs .Bob

Edited November 29, 2016 by robert b (see edit history)

[F&J]

28 minutes ago, robert b said:

Dont try to remove the header from the core you can do to much damage to the tube seams and very difficult to seal .The type of torch to be used is most important and the flame temp is critical to not over heat the tubes along side them. This is just the being of the things to consider before attempting such a repair . More info if needed ,some pics would help me give more info

Thanks for reply.  I have different types of torches.

 

I do not know yet, if the tubes are seamed, but I will find out on an identical 32 Ford radiator that is very poor condition (to practice on)

 

The good radiator only had one tube leaking from "missing solder" when I first tested it a year ago.  There was no sign of white corrosion, or any other discoloration at the missing solder area.  It looked like the solder just vanished?  It was at top, and was the forward row, so I sealed it with JB Weld after being able to get it really clean.  That repair is still OK after driving the car for a month or so.  The fins are not loose on the tubes anywhere, and no rock damage, or fan damaged areas...it really looks like a perfect "mint" radiator.

 

But, two more solder joints are leaking up top, one may be front row behind the grille, but the other leak seems it might be in the middle row (of 3 rows of tubes), so I don't know if I can get in there to clean, or to solder.   (I need to get the radiator out, and remove the grille shell for a better look) 

 

so, I guess I need to get the radiator removed, clean any dust/dirt/paint from all the top tube joints and see how many tubes look "unsoldered" ?   If only 2 are missing solder, then I don't need to remove the tank, or do I ?    Which side of header should I apply solder from?  the outside(air side) or the inside(water side with tank removed)?

 

.

[robert b]

Always remove as little as possible as far as the tanks go , if no leaks than leave ,you would solder on air side and as for the middle tubes they can be hard to get at some times . You may have to leaver the fin stock down on each side of the in side ( fan side , which is seen less than the out side ) to gain access to the center row , small hand sand blaster down the side of the tubes will clean them . LP gas and oxygen and a hand torch with a number 8 tip under cut for the pin point flame ,about 1/4 netural flame ,zinc chloride flux and 60/40 solder should do the trick . Remember clean three times and than solder than wash very well after to remove flux . Bob

[robert b]

F&J here is some pics of a 15 "Alldays &Onions " and a 23 Lincoln that I have done work on of late . Bob

[robert b]

 Some pics of a Dodge Senior Six and Model A Ford

[F&J]

1 minute ago, robert b said:

Some pics

Wow, lots of work and talent needed there...

 

I am going to try to get some pics uploaded soon, if I can figure out how.... on my new laptop.

 

I took the top tank off of my spare no-good radiator.

 

I wanted to show the tube layout, which are angled, rather than in a straight line from front row to back row., and also ask about the baffle under the radiator filler hole.

 

I cannot see the correct cold water level.  I have to check level when fully hot.  The cold level is below the baffle, so I cannot tell if the level is OK or not when cold?

 

yes, the tubes are seamed.

 

..

[F&J]

Boy, I sure do hate internet design gurus....I have a new HP Stream laptop with some messed up modern layout... I can't figure anything out, compared to other laptops and desktops I have used.  These  - - -  boys decided to "let's be soooo cool to put this here, and that there."..

 

I am glad they don't design cars, as they would put the steering wheel in the trunk, and gas pedal behind the seat.  MAD!!!!

 

Trying some pics ...

 

This is the practice radiator...

 

Anyways, I tried to move some of the fins away from the header so I can reach the tubes to clean/resolder.   They don't want to move.  Not sure if the fins are soldered.  Or the punch process, which leaves a tail pointing down, that hits the next fin plate below?

 

Tried to show the baffle under the filler neck.  Can I remove/discard the baffle? Or can I at least cut a hole in it to see the cold water level?  Yes, I'd need to take the top tank off of the good radiator, but this one came off quite easily.  The two front corners of the tank are very close to the several tubes there, so I will be more aware of not heating too much at those two spots, IF I need to remove the top tank on the good radiator

 

 

[robert b]

F&J always keep the flame of the torch on the tank not the header and this will keep the heat away from the tubes so as not to melt the solder around the good tubes and create more troubles with the tubes . Is the baffle plate flat or half round, just can not tell in pics , would expect water level to be 1 to 2 inch below filler neck hot ,lower when cold . The baffle is to stop the water pump from pushing water at the cap or overflow tube. Bob

 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by robert b (see edit history)

[robert b]

F&J is possible that the fin stock is steel and not brass , Ford truck radiators were steel HD types Bob

[F&J]

42 minutes ago, robert b said:

. Is the baffle plate flat or half round

It is half round, and not down far enough.  If I add water when cold, to barely be on top of the lowest part of baffle, it loses that extra water when at normal engine temp.

I guessed it might be there because the lower fitting is aimed right at the filler.

 

I will check tomorrow to see if the fins are magnetic.  I did not see any rusted fins on both radiators. 

[Guest]

You should be able to tell how much water is in the system by squeezing the top hose.  When it is full to the top of the hose you will hear the water moving in the rad when you squeeze the hose.  Once you get it to the right level you shouldn't have to add coolant very often.  I have the graphite packing on my water pump and it weep a small amount like it should.  I change my antifreeze every second year and very seldom have to add coolant in between.  But I still check it every week or so.  Lift the hood with one hand squeeze the hose with the other and I'm finished.  Probably less than two minutes just to be extra sure.

[F&J]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 1:52 AM, Tinindian said:

You should be able to tell how much water is in the system by squeezing the top hose.

I will try that before I remove the "better" radiator from the car.  Thanks for the tip.

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:58 PM, robert b said:

F&J is possible that the fin stock is steel and not brass

I did some sandblasting with ultra fine sand.  The fins which are plates running the full length/width of the core body, are copper.

 

The tubes are brass,  The seams on each tube; I cannot tell if the tube seams are soldered at the interlocking "U" shaped, tightly crimped seam.  Maybe you will know if they seal by just crimping?, or if they do have solder sealing the entire length of each tube?

 

 

Robert, I am stuck at this point, not knowing how to fix the tube-to-header leaks.   The copper fin plates when punched, leave a extended tab at each oval hole.  These tabs face downwards and just about touch the next fin plate below.  (like a stack of dinner plates).   I tried to move the topmost fin plate away from the brass header, but it is not even moving a tiny bit.  I cannot tell if the fin plate "holes" are soldered to the tubes?

 

 

So, I am stuck because I cannot get in the "air-side" with cleaning tools, nor have any room to get a tiny torch in there, especially the middle row of tubes.  I don't dare take the best radiator out of the car yet, as I need to have a solid plan on how to fix those leaks, and not ruin it. This practice radiator can be used to try any suggestion you have, as it is in poor condition.

 

I tried cropping the pics, rather than shrinking the pics, so you can maybe see better details of the water side of the header/tube tips.

 

One pic with red circles at where the solder joints are cracked?  Then the black circle with black arrow pointing to one solder joint that looks porosity holes from possible corroded solder there?

 

And other pic shows the outermost tubes have no solder left at all, or nearly gone.

 

 

....

One other thing, I did measure the half-round baffle; the bottom of baffle is 1.5" higher than the header.  That is too high to see the cold water level.  I thought that I could drill a 1/2" hole in the baffle somewhere?, then solder a thin stand pipe in that hole, so I could see down the pipe?  The pipe hopefully would keep the upper water flow from backing up to the bottom of the radiator neck and it's overflow pipe?  Yes, or no?

[robert b]

F&J The tubes are locked seam and soldered , no trouble there and yes the porosity you speak of is solder decay called " bloming " in which the solder turns powdery and loses its bond . This comes from long term acidic or electrolitic  action in which the tin and lead decay to a oxide, yes you can seal the tubes from the in side as you have done sand blast clean , tin the tube and header and than run a bead of solder around the tube . I will see if i can post some pics of me doing this later to day , to give you some idea of what to do . Bob

[F&J]

33 minutes ago, robert b said:

yes you can seal the tubes from the in side as you have done sand blast clean , tin the tube and header and than run a bead of solder around the tube . I will see if i can post some pics of me doing this later to day , to give you some idea of what to do . Bob

Thanks Bob, no rush on the pics.   I don't dare take the better radiator out of the car yet.

 

The bad radiator is not repairable because it has what some people call "age cracks" in the face of the top tank.  The spider cracks are not near a bracket that would cause stress cracks.  There are many leaks at the top tubes/header, and I saw one front tube leaking half way down the face of the core, so that tube might be age cracked too.  (why they call them age cracks, might be like some chromed brass tail lights and headlight rims that are cracked...some cars have good ones, and some identical cars are cracked a lot).  

 

That radiator came from a hot dry barn loft in Kansas.  I thought that would be a good thing.  Must not be?  The "better" radiator came from wetter cooler climate here in Northeast USA, and was still in a junked 1932 Ford that sat outside since day one.  There are no cracks anywhere on that one.

 

.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by F&J (see edit history)

[robert b]

F&J could not get pics done to day had to wait for a DC8 Dodge to come in late , will do something tomorrow . Bob

[F&J]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 0:28 AM, robert b said:

F&J could not get pics done to day had to wait for a DC8 Dodge to come in late , will do something tomorrow . Bob

Hi Bob,

 

I took the "better" radiator out of the car, removed the top tank, and this one is far worse than the "bad one". It can't be fixed.

 

One corner of the top header plate is all age cracked and split, seen in the close-up pic.    And it was choked with mouse nest fibers, but ran cool on 65F days. It would have run hot in summer. 

 

  Those fibers must have stayed wet for decades, because the top tips of many tubes are rotted away.  Even the internal overflow tube has age cracked and split in one area.  There is nothing left to solder to, on many tubes.

 

So, I will be forced to either find a shop that can make a new core with original style headers, or keep looking for a stock type reproduction 4 cylinder 1932 radiator.  I found one somewhere online that was just over $950 + shipping USD.  A street rod radiator is cheaper, but those seem to have a core thicker than mine at 2", so my fan would hit at the bottom of the fan rotation.  It's close already.

 

 

[robert b]

F&J any good core maker can remake you a core the same as you have but the tubes will be straight rather than at a angle or they may be stagered to improve air to tube air flow .If the radiator is seen at the front of the car a flat fin tubular core is the way to go . If you need advice just ask Bob

[DavidAU]

Walker Radiators have a very good reputation for Ford radiators and may have the correct one for your car.

 

http://www.walkerradiatorworks.com/Radiator-Engine-Cooling-Products/

[F&J]

22 hours ago, DavidAU said:

Walker Radiators have a very good reputation for Ford radiators and may have the correct one for your car.

 

http://www.walkerradiatorworks.com/Radiator-Engine-Cooling-Products/

I had not seen their complete selection of 32 Ford radiators, I only saw a few on ebay.   But it looks like they don't make one for a stock 32 with top filler cap and correct upper hose fitting.   I also tried Bob Drake but they don't sell 32 radiators.  And I can't find a place that could sell a new core for my tanks yet.

 

So, here is a very dramatic video of soldering the header to the tubes, by heating from the water side.   This is beyond my skills, and I don't have the room between the fin and the header.  He was able to mash those types of fins upwards to get room for scrubbing and solder.  (turn the volume down, it is a very loud torch)

 

 

Anyways, I can't use that system, as I have some open holes at the fin joint at header, and a few small holes in a few tubes right at the header.  Solder won't flow like that.

 

 

So, I was able to use fine sand to sandblast the entire area between the top fin and the header.  I did from both sides and it was super clean.   A friend and my son both said to seal it with some type of epoxy, etc...... something that will flow in there, but not harden before it does flow in.

 

I decided to use Plasti-Dip which takes a long time to set up.  It is like a rubber material, not plastic.  I was going to try to shove it in each void with a tiny brush, but I was out-voted.  They both said to somehow seal off 3 sides, then pour in from the front face, with radiator laid flat on a stand.

 

I had some Home Depot "gutter repair".  A thin aluminum skin with very sticky black rubberlike adhesive.   I cut into one inch wide, long strip, then preheated the radiator header/and fin, and heated the black adhesive side, bent it to a 90 degree and sealed the back side.  It stuck great. 

 

 

Then made 2 short end pieces, and finally I made a trough shaped one to act as a ramp to pour the Plasti-Dip into that long area at header.

 

I filled the entire channel, then ran a thin coffee stir stick down beside each row of tubes to try to get air out and cover all 3 rows of tubes.   After an hour of fiddling, I removed the adhesive strips to drain the excess out.  It would never dry if I left it full.

 

Then tonight my son said to take all the tools/sticks etc, and boil them in water for a half hour to see if the Plasti-Dip got ruined, or lost it's grip.  It actually got stronger, so I hope this might work for now, rather than leave the car apart.  I will test the radiator with water tomorrow, and if no leaks, I will repaint it, and install.  This would not work with a newer pressurized system, but mine is not.

 

I left out the new small copper overflow tube, so it would not be in my way; I will solder it into the tank hole with an electric "copper:, not a torch.

 

Pic shows the adhesive trough thing filled full, before draining extra out:

[F&J]

Well, I was very happy to see no leaks at all, anywhere on the radiator.   Not installed in car, just a bench test with blocked outlet and inlet, and water filled to the very top for a half hour.

 

I forgot to mention two things yesterday.  One was that before I poured the Plasti-Dip in, I had a few gaps where some tubes had a hole or a gap at the header.  I filled these gaps first with a tiny bit of JB Weld, so that the Plasti-Dip could not leak into these holes.

 

The other thing I forgot to say:  While I had the top tank removed, I drilled a large hole into the bottom of the baffle under the filler neck.  I then soldered from the underside, a 1/2" copper plumbing coupler.  This sits flush at the low part of the baffle, but hangs down below the baffle, about 1/2" from the tops of the tubes.  Now I will be able to see the coolant level when cold, to make sure the tubes are covered with coolant.

 

I'm not sure if a gush of water when the thermostat opens, will get forced up that coupler and into the overflow tube?  Time will tell.   I have to run a thermostat because even when the radiator was partially plugged up, it took 1/2 hour driving to get up to 160F-170F without a thermostat.  I could not use a thermostat when it was plugged up, and I think that when the Stat opened quickly, it overflowed the top tank, due to the plugged tubes?   With the radiator cap removed, that gush of water from the thermostat, shot straight up like a steam driven overheat gush.

 

I did install a new 3/8" copper overflow tube to replace the rotted stock one.

 

You should be able to see inside the filler in this pic.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by F&J (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I would have thought that if the thermostat worked correctly, it would start to open at say 70°C and there would be a trickle of water passing it for a while until all the water is at 70°C, then it would gradually open further as the water heated. It is only fully open at say 80°C, or whatever the spec's are. So no gush? I test mine in a pot of heated water before installing them, to be sure.

 

Nice job. Ingenious. Hope it works for a good while.

 

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that radiators work better if they are NOT painted.

 

Update: The paint should have no effect on heat transfer if it is black and thin. Most of the heat transfer is by convection with some by radiation. The radiation part is better with black paint.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

The paint should have no effect on heat transfer if it is black and thin. Most of the heat transfer is by convection with some by radiation. The radiation part is better with black paint.

I went very sparse with black paint when I first found this radiator.   But today, I put a lot on from every angle as I am trying to minimize any more external corroding of those brass tubes. 

 

I also need to run good antifreeze to keep the tubes from corroding on the insides.

 

I was only hoping this "fix" would last long enough to take enough time to find a place that could supply a proper core to fit my tanks, ...but if it lasts a few months, I may see just how long it can hold. 

 

I just hated to see the car taken apart, and see it sit around for months like that.

 

I don't know about why the thermostat did what it did, but there is pressure backed up in the engine from the water pump, when the Stat is closed.   Maybe it will work OK now that the radiator tubes are all rodded and cleaned out.  Besides the mouse nest fibers at the tube tops,  I also had 5 tubes blocked with orange rust sediment packed tight.  I wanted those cleaned out, so that any acids trapped in that sediment, would not rot the tube.  Took a good bit of prodding with a wire, but I got each one clear. 

 

.

[Spinneyhill]

Shouldn't there be a little bypass hole in the thermostat so it doesn't burp like that?

[F&J]

6 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Shouldn't there be a little bypass hole in the thermostat so it doesn't burp like that?

There was none on this new name brand one.  I think the brand was "Standard"? 

 

Anyways, I always try to remember to drill a 1/16" or a bit larger hole to allow quick filling of an empty system.   I did this one before I tried it.

 

Funny you brought that up, as I forgot to ask opinions on drilling a larger hole.  I'm not sure if a larger hole or two, would be able to help lessen the trapped water pump pressure?  I only assume the water pump has too much power to be lessened by this attempt?

 

Or, would too big or too many holes, cause the thermostat to behave poorly if there was warmer water going past the sensing part of the stat?

 

I don't mind trying suggestions.  Or first?  ...should I maybe just do a 1/8" hole and try it again, now that the radiator is totally clear?  I would no longer be overfilling the top tank, and I would set the cold level barely above the tops of the tubes....as I can now tell for sure where the level is.

.

 

[Spinneyhill]

It is my understanding the water pump works by pushing water outwards, away from the shaft, creating a low pressure area in front of the vanes. This is filled by water flowing in from the radiator. The "pressure" is the height of water above the pump shaft to the top of the water surface in the radiator plus a bit for losses in the engine due to rough walls, changes in direction in the flow and turbulence. If the water is not flowing I suppose there is just turbulence around the pump - hopefully with no cavitation - and some circulation within the engine and back to the pump?

 

I don't recall the hole in the thermostat being much bigger than a mm or two, so smaller than or up to an eighth inch dia.. Any bigger and you could start to slow warmup?

Edited December 11, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[F&J]

9 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

so smaller than or up to an eighth inch dia.. Any bigger and you could start to slow warmup?

Yes, I don't want a very slow warm up.   The car runs better when it finally reached perhaps 170, but took forever without a thermostat.

 

I will go 3/32" for now and see how it all works. 

 

.

[F&J]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 8:28 PM, Spinneyhill said:

so smaller than or up to an eighth inch dia.. Any bigger and you could start to slow warmup?

 

Just a follow-up.  The two small holes in the thermostat was a huge fail.  It would not get to operating temperature just sitting there.  The upper hose was warm as well as the top tank, while the temp gauge was still far too low.

 

 

So, I went with a 180 degree, but just one tiny hole, just over 1/16".   I had no issues with trapping air on filling the system back up, and the stat now works as it should, at idle and driving.

 

Now that I can see the cold water level, set at 1/2" above the tubes, I no longer have any issues with overflow when hot, etc.

 

So far, the radiator has no signs of leaks. 

 

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