5 SPD Reatta?

[TwinCamFan]

So my primary focus on AACA is over on the TC By Maserati sub forum, I've been there a few years and have had 6 or 7 of them.  Pretty much just the 5 SPD cars are my passion.  Brief history lesson (disclaimer, as I know it and have been told by reliable sources, not looking for a debate on my fact checking.  I've been thru those debates, don't need another one) on the 284 Getrag transmission.   When the C4 Corvette was on the design table at GM in the early 80's there were TWO designs in the running, FRONT engine and MID engine.  We all know which one was picked right?  Anyway for the mid engine version Getrag was contracted to build a 5 SPD trans that could withstand 475LbsFt of torque, they  did so and delivered the 284 transmission. The rest is a bit of hearsay (and if you are privy to details please share) but when the mid engine concept was killed for the C4 getrag had already built a thousand or so transmissions for it or AT LEAST the gearsets (I'd love to know if cases were made and if so what happened to them, I've never gotten anyone from Getrag North America to comment).  Enter the team of Lee Ioccoca and Alejandro De Tamaso with  their two seat  'Touring Coupe' they are building.  Why yes, we will take some of those trransmissions off your hands if you build a case that bolts up to our inline four 2.2...   So they did and 500-ish  5 speed TC's made it into production.  Having driven at least 10 TC Maserati equipped with them I can tell you its a great transmission-but its an orphan.  Theres no serviceable parts I can find, no seals and worst of all, not more clutch pressure plates so when you burn thru those, its game over.  I'm at that point  with one of my TC's, it's slipping under WOT in 4th and 5th, due to inability to source another clutch (needs to be stronger than stock, this car makes about 50HP/75 torque over stock) I'll replace it with a 568 and aftermarket clutch.

 

Here's the part where it gets a little more interesting for this group, could I see a show of hands for those that know what I'm talking about?  That's right, the 284 made it into one other production car (hands anyone?) Yep, the 91-93 Z34 DOHC 5 SPD Lumina's.  Also a very rare breed (I've heard 500, can anyone confirm?)  I've only ever seen two in the wild and both were in Junkyards, one of which I brought home with me about 15 yeas ago to try and use the gearset out of(the cases are very different from the TC 284 as you'd expect) to fix one of mine that had a bad diff bearing.  A buddy and I opened it up (between the two of us we've rebuilt dozens of 525/520/555/523/568 Chysler FWD transmissions) and right away I knew we were in over our heads  The shift rail has multiple springs/balls/dogs that hold it together, there's nothing like that in any of those Chrysler transmission I listed.  But still we ripped it apart out of curiosity. It took up too much space on the garage floor for a while before I gave up on the project and stashed the parts and unlovingly left the transmission case on my side yard in the weather.  Circling back to why this is pertinent to the Reatta fans (about time right?)  That Lumina trans bolts up to your blocks or so tells  the guy on the other end of the phone(calling from Canada no less, was his name John??) and could he buy that trans off me?  I told him it's worth anything and not worth my time to ship it north. Persistant he sent a friend to pay me $100. and pick it up in SoCal, and ship it to him.   Rumor had it he found a shop with the skilz to reassemble it, and put it in his Reatta. Hence the title of the post 5SPD Reatta. Can Anyone  confirm?

 

You might be asking why I should post about it now after all these years?  I suppose because I have a buddy in Florida that yesterday sent me pics of the 284 he is refurbishing (no new parts really other than an NOS clutch, he's  just cleaning and painting the case) and he is  looking for seals for. I haven't looked in the last 10 years or tried very hard but I still don't know of any service parts for the 284's.  Heck, Getag has a little transmission listing  page on it's website and guess what's not listed there?  Yep, 284's. They don't even admit they ever existed!

 

I'll end this overly wordly post with a funny  story about a sticker.  You see on the bottom of every 5 SPD equipped TC Masi (did I mention they also got a specific DOHC Cosworth based motor never available in any other car?  Whole nuther story I guess) There is a very durable metallic backed (they obviously wanted it to last) sticker that says something close to "This transmission is not field serviceable do not attempt to open it, for repairs or warranty please return it to Getrag North America"  I had always thought that because of the low production numbers of an orphaned and unprofitable TC (ChyCo lost money on every one of Lee and Alejandos creations) that they didn't want to train the Chrysler Service techs on repair/service and that they had 'cheaped out' on training costs.  I remember the day I found that elusive 5spd Z34 in the boneyard( super weird part is that I looked for a couple years in the windows of every Z34 I found looking for that elusive manual shift lever.  BOTH 5spd Z34's were in the  SAME yard THAT same day!)and looked the trans over, it had the exact same sticker, GM cheaped out too

[Guest Guyver280Z]

Sick!!

 

Here's one for cheap

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/5882124956.html

[Guest Guyver280Z]

So, you think the Getrag 284 would fit the Reatta's axles?? Or the 284 compatible axles would fit the Reatta's hubs?

Im doing an electric conversion on my Reatta, so I don't care about the transmission fitting the engine, only care about the axles combo Ill need.

Thanks so much!!!

[Ronnie]

Sick!

[padgett]

Oddly enough I have one, but in a Pontiac GTP. 1988-1991 the GP had a Getrag 282 (like a Fiero) but when the DOHC 24 valve 6 (Vin X) came out in 1991, they got the 284. 3.1s still used the 282. 284 was designed both for much higher torque and a 7,000 rpm redline.

 

Now the one I worked on was for Greg Ross's (Canadian but was working in Louisiana at the time). 88 triple blue Reatta, I knew it was a Getrag but not which one, I was just concerned about the reprogramming to keep the 88s dash and CRT without a ton of error codes.. First for an L27, and later for an L67 (must use different maps entirely). I later gave my .bins to Ryan at GM Tuners. Think Greg's original 3800/440T4 is in my garage somewhere.

 

Are correct is rare - documented 47 built in '93 (last year). Doesn't really fit but I just could not resist it. Surprises a lot of Bimmers and Porsches.

 

Might ask your buddy what he wants for it, am also in Florida and would like to pick up a spare.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[handmedownreatta]

i would love a five speed in my car.my minivan has one.

[TwinCamFan]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Oddly enough I have one, but in a Pontiac GTP. 1988-1991 the GP had a Getrag 282 (like a Fiero) but when the DOHC 24 valve 6 (Vin X) came out in 1991, they got the 284. 3.1s still used the 282. 284 was designed both for much higher torque and a 7,000 rpm redline.

 

Now the one I worked on was for Greg Ross's (Canadian but was working in Louisiana at the time). 88 triple blue Reatta, I knew it was a Getrag but not which one, I was just concerned about the reprogramming to keep the 88s dash and CRT without a ton of error codes.. First for an L27, and later for an L67 (must use different maps entirely). I later gave my .bins to Ryan at GM Tuners. Think Greg's original 3800/440T4 is in my garage somewhere.

 

Are correct is rare - documented 47 built in '93 (last year). Doesn't really fit but I just could not resist it. Surprises a lot of Bimmers and Porsches.

 

Might ask your buddy what he wants for it, am also in Florida and would like to pick up a spare.

 

 

Sounds  the 5 speed Getrag Reatta you worked on *is* that Canadian car I sold the trans for-Very Cool  I never knew about the 284 equipped GTP's so that they got the 'Lumina' DOHC 3.4??  How many were made? 47 total or that's just 93?  Anyone using forced induction on one?  The later supercharged cars are a whole 'Nuther motor right? (showing my lack of GM knowledge here, pretty much been a Chrysler guy always tho I do have a black turbo Buick :-)  ) Back when I was younger and had more time and energy I pulled the heads off of one  of these motors in the yard and was very impressed at the port/runner/chamber shape of the 5 cam 3.4 motor!  I used to daydream about turbocharging one, it would make some serious power as well as those heads are designed

[padgett]

Can be done in a Reatta but you must really, REALLY, REALLY, want to & bring a lot of money.

 

That said today I'd use an F40. (G6 6 speed).

 

Greg had an L67 (supercharged 3800). Turbo on an LQ1 (3.4 "Twin Dual Cam") would be difficult, engine compartment is crammed full with the battery under the windshield washer reservoir and air box. Guess you could put the battery in the trunk and eliminate the washer reservoir but then the turbo would be directly over the steering gearbox.

 

Suppose a belt driven supercharger would be possible but would need a really strange bulge in the hood.

 

But a boosted LQ1 would put out about 350-400 hp that is even more than a production 284 can take. Would really be a much better match for a 4T65E and were a lot of those. Most 1991-1993 and all 1994 to 1998 had automagics (all Cutlasses from day 1). However the 94-later LQ1s were interference engines. Break a belt (cams are belt driven) and might as well trash the engine.

 

For me am at a decision point: the GTP is interesting and fun but my Crossfire with 6 speed is faster and the GTP needs about $2-3k of cosmetic work (no rust or accidents, just tired). If do decide to keep (am a sucker for DOHC 6s with a manual trans) would like to have a spare tranny (or enough parts to build one).

[waltmail]

Found this very informative history and conversions write up on the Getrag.

 

http://www.rodneydickman.com/getraginfo.htm

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by waltmail (see edit history)

[ChrisWhewell]

Those 3.4's are one of the best engines put out of GM.  Forged internals.  Most mechanics hated them.  Essentially, the same Tq and power output as an L67, if cam timing is put to where it should be and fuel maps done right.  Ign module is adjacent to exhaust manifold, I moved mine to be under the washer reservoir

[padgett]

Did you move the battery to the trunk (is under the washer reservoir on mine).

 

Only thing I dislike is the use of a timing belt and not gears/chain. Good news is mine is one of the early ones with the non-interference engine.

 

Do you have the cam settings and a .bin with the fuel maps ? I already reworked mine to run cooler and turn on the highway mode (turned off in the stock .bin).

 

Already doesn't start making real power 'til 4k rpm.

 

Boy Barney has a Corsa and you know w-cars. Georgetown must be an interesting place.

[ChrisWhewell]

No, left the battery in its stock location, beneath the airbox.  I don't have the fuel maps or timing spec., but am 100% certain that when that engine was spec'd at the factory for emissions, that the HP output was 270.   The issue was that the team at Hydramatic could not deliver a transmission that could hold up to the Tq, so the engine was detuned by altering cam timing, I am 95% certain that the number was 8 degrees.  And a commensurate mod of the fueling.   I'd look to the specs for the high-output Quad-4 motor and match those timing events.  The belt is a pretty easy change, just mark its position on the sprockets with some white out, changing the belt takes less than an hour that way.  But the belts do stretch so after 20k miles one of the cams is off more than the other.  When we had to change the alternator, the little 10mm wrench welded to a socket extension made the job really easy, pic below

Edited November 22, 2016 by ChrisWhewell (see edit history)

[padgett]

Interesting, can ask a few people but there was also a racing quad 4 & think I have the specs for that. Wonder if the manual trans cars were also detuned but that would explain why it has never felt as powerful as it might.

 

ps my belt has about 40k on it.

[ChrisWhewell]

On November 22, 2016 at 2:03 PM, padgett said:

Interesting, can ask a few people but .....

 

Hey, here's some good info for you, the dude is pretty knowldegeable:

 

http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/34Performance/dohc.html

 

and here is the EASY belt change:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3fzI_ODZFI

 

 

[ChrisWhewell]

Note , in the article he wrote 281 HP @ 7000 rpm.   That is one Bad-A, naturally-aspriated motor.   Only 3.4 Liters !!    Ours was in a Cutlass I got my son after he graduated, only $1500 b/c the owner's mechanics all cried about how crappy the motor was, when in reality, they were just ignorant    The problem when we got it was, it wouldn't start.   I traced it to the ignition module, spent $50, and the kid had a car that he drove 4 years while he banked a shitload of cash.   He loved revving that thing, I swear I saw the tach read 7500 once.  The 2nd-3rd clutche wore out, we sold it for $500 a couple months ago.  I wish I had more time to play with that 3.4.  Its like, probably 95% volumetric efficiency !!

Edited November 24, 2016 by ChrisWhewell (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well 281 HP at 7,000 is 211 lb-ft of torque. If the engine can take it and breath is not that hard but without VVT would need a lot of cam advance & probably really bogs below 3500.

 

If you saw 7500 then someone was didling with the programing and probably boosted the fuel and advance curves as well.

[Ronnie]

6 hours ago, ChrisWhewell said:

Note , in the article he wrote 281 HP @ 7000 rpm.   That is one Bad-A, naturally-aspriated motor.   Only 3.4 Liters !!

 

I think that is good but not really extraordinary by new car standards. The newer Chevy Equinox with a 3.6 V6 has 301 HP at 6500 and it's a grocery & kid hauler.

[padgett]

True but the level has changed. LQ1 was SOA for 1991. 26 years later we have direct injection, variable valve timing I&E and 11:1 compression.

 

Incidentally the 2011 Chrysler Pentastar 3.6 had 306 hp @ 6400 rpm on 87 PON. Torque peaks for a mid-3 liter engine have not changed much but the rpms are way higher and holding 90% of the torque peak from 1800 to 6400 rpm is the big difference.

 

BTW my 1959 Jag 3.4 was good for 250 hp.

[ChrisWhewell]

It was 50 year old technology, Offy's had 4 valves per cylinder, overhead cams, in 1934:   http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/02/1934-offenhauser-engine-rebuild-overview/

 

So, I was pleased to have had the pleasure of diddling with a modern rendition of old tech.  Once you've got 4 valves per cylinder and have tuned the port volume, there isn't much left, except cam timing events, and fueling.  i.e., its not rocket science !!   Published HP numbers are also subject to a little fudging, recall the Ford 428CJ.   At any rate, I still think the GM 3.4L DOHC is a great motor with more potential than a lot of folk appreciate   One weak point is the oil plug where the distributor hole was cast into the block, when, and not if, it leaks, the rear head must be pulled.  However, there's an alternate fix, if you ever need it, holler at me.

 

[padgett]

See 1921 Miller DOHC 4-valve straight 8.

Fred worked for Harry then.

Edited November 26, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)