Ruxton Body question

[keiser31]

21 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

 

 

I think it is nonsense trying to compare a 3/4 view of one vehicle to a side-on shot of another.

If you are referring to the photo I posted, I am sorry I did not have the full on side view that would shows the reveals (recesses under the windows).

[Barry Wolk]

I've had this very discussion with the Ruxton guru based on the erroneous article below. Here's his response from 2 years ago.

 

It's the stampings that were modified, not the dies. The 21/60 was the car the Ruxton was based on, not a Dodge.

 

Quote

Hi Barry, hope you are well too. Well the guy is simply wrong, it's well documented through court cases that Baker Raulang built the open Ruxton bodies and Budd made 200 sets of stampings for the Ruxton sedan bodies from the English Wolseley modified stampings. You can look at the side of a Wolseley and see the clear connection the upper portions of the doors are identical and the lower portions were chopped off as the Ruxton body was lower overall. 

The Ruxton Alligator was hand built but did start with the body tub from a Dodge roadster - could this be cruising him confusion?? (again, well documented). The tub was altered so significantly it bears no resemblance to a Dodge roadster - but that was the origin of the tub. The cowl, hood and side panels and all four fenders were made from soft dies made specifically for the Alligator, but those items were derived from the Ruxton roadster stampings. 

Hope that helps. Regards Jim

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Barry Wolk (see edit history)

[8E45E]

I'm trying hard to imagine anything 'Wolseley-derived' on this Ruxton.  http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?64363-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-16-1930-Ruxton

 

I could see if Wolseley was a front wheel drive car, then there could be some component sharing, otherwise no.

 

Craig

[Barry Wolk]

Had you read what what posted direct above yours you would have seen that only the sedan bodies were Wolseley. Baker Railing built the open cars. 

[vintagerodshop]

@James B. you have in your thread one of the very view people that have Hands on knowledge with the Ruxton and how they where built. He also has quoted from a conversation from the single largest Ruxton collector of not just cars but information and knowledge on the Ruxton. If it was me I would be listening to his responses.

[Barry Wolk]

5 hours ago, vintagerodshop said:

@James B. you have in your thread one of the very view people that have Hands on knowledge with the Ruxton and how they where built. He also has quoted from a conversation from the single largest Ruxton collector of not just cars but information and knowledge on the Ruxton. If it was me I would be listening to his responses.

You can lead a horse to water...............

[James B.]

I sat back for a while to see what responses would be posted, and there have been some great information passed along.  Keep in mind, I am asking a question that may or may not have merit to it but considering the sources they came from, suspect are factual?  I am not trying to stir a pot but only add to the conversation for further discussion with finds.

 

Besides the archivist who has direct access to the Wolseley historic papers, here is an intro on the official Morris Registry (UK) concerning the 1930-1935 Morris Isis.

 

" Introduction

On sale from September 1929, the Isis Six was the successor of the 1928-9 model Morris Six. The all steel body of the Isis used panels produced by the Pressed Steel Co, Cowley, using Budd dies. The same dies were used initially in the USA for the 1928 Dodge Victory and in the UK for the 1929 Wolseley Messenger. Power was provided by the same 17.9hp engine as fitted to the preceding Morris Six. From 1932, a re-designed body, with steel panels fitted to an ash frame, was used. "

This is from a website dealing with vintage cars and one history states:

" It was not until 1926 that a Budd partnership was established in the U.K. This was a partnership with William Morris resulting in a new plant being built in Cowley alongside the Morris Production plant the Company being known as the Pressed Steel Company.

Budd’s design engineer J. Ledwinka had patented the first Semi monocoque car body design in 1926, it was first produced in America as a Dodge model – The Victory Six in 1927/8. (See Fig 3.) The same design was produced by Pressed Steel in early 1929 here in the U.K. appearing on the 1929 Morris Isis and Wolseley 21/60 County and Messenger cars. (See Fig 4.) A version of this design was also produced by Citroen in France known as the Citroen C6 Model. (See Fig 5.) "

Figures 3, 4, and 5 are just photos of collector's cars similar already posted.

 

Identifying a mystery photo on Old Classic Car (UK) someone made this mention:   " It couldn't be an Isis from 1930/31 as suggested, because for these first two seasons they were of all steel construction made on Budd Press tools from the States (Dodge Victory Six),"

 

A CVMCE (Australia) newsletter reade mentions similar to above:

 

" Rodney White’s 1929 Morris Isis I bought the 1929 Morris Isis in 1986, it was in a very rusted condition, but about 90% complete. The car has an all steel body which used panels produced by the Pressed Steel Co, Cowley, using Budd dies. The same dies were used initially in the USA for the 1928 Dodge Victory and in the UK for the 1929 Wolseley Messenger. "

 

So, there are several stories about the Dodge, Morris, and Wolseley sharing the same dies but seems to have been restricted between models and years and assuming this is the same Wolseley dies used for the Ruxton, come the claims.

 

Again, not here to start arguments or debates, just hoping for answers when there seems to be conflicting information around, including by some official marque sites.

 

Thanks

Jim

 

 

 

[James B.]

At the Wolseley Register...

 

Anders Clausager, former Wolseley Register Historian and archivist to the BMIHT;

 

The Wolseley Messenger six light saloon was produced between 1929 and 1931. It was specifically built as an export only model being the first British all-steel “semi-monocoque” bodied car, produced by the Pressed Steel Co Ltd (a partnership between Lord Nuffield, the Edward G Budd Manufacturing Company of America and an American Bank – J.H. Schroder Co.) This was radically different from the then normal ‘coach built’ bodies which were steel plates affixed to a wooden frame, sitting on the chassis – as on horse drawn coaches.  The Messenger steel sides were a single unit, bolted onto the side of the chassis, far more robust.

 

There are about 6 or 7 known Messengers surviving around the world but still the hope that others might be located.

 

Wolseley Messenger:

 

 

 

[8E45E]

From all appearances, the Ruxton and Wolseley have as much in common as an Alfa Romeo 164 and a Saab 9000.

 

Craig

[James B.]

We are not talking about the entire car but just the sharing of the dies for stamping the body shell.

[8E45E]

From October, 1987 Car Collector magazine: 

 

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Craig

[James B.]

Thanks Craig for the magazine page with the Ruxton article.  I wonder if John Donlan is still around?  The article is interesting but of course does not answer the burning question about the shared (altered) stamping dies   I knew about the Hupp version and there were photos of it posted somewhere on this board I ran across.  There is also the Muller and Ledwinka version and photos of both have been circulated.

[James B.]

This should be a simple question to answer.  We know who made the body,  We know who made the engine and transmission.  Who made the frame for this?  Was it Budd built as well or a frame manufacturer like A.O. Smith?

 

Jim

 

[Barry Wolk]

Budd, for sure. It even has stamped brake drums.

 

[8E45E]

On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 6:40 AM, James B. said:

Thanks Craig for the magazine page with the Ruxton article.  I wonder if John Donlan is still around?  There is also the Muller and Ledwinka version and photos of both have been circulated.

You're welcome! 

 

I ran across it while looking for something else, and figured it was worth scanning and posting here.  Since his letter appeared in 1987, his '25 years of research' would take him back to 1952. 

 

Is the 'Ledwinka' car a Czech version?

 

Craig

[Barry Wolk]

Jack Dolan is around, but I couldn't get much useful information out of him. Nice guy, but side-bar city. 

He's the guy that sold my friend the Ruxton I restored. 

[James B.]

46 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

You're welcome! 

 

I ran across it while looking for something else, and figured it was worth scanning and posting here.  Since his letter appeared in 1987, his '25 years of research' would take him back to 1952. 

 

Is the 'Ledwinka' car a Czech version?

 

Craig

 

Joseph "Led" V. Ledwinka worked for Budd at the time as their experimental engineer.  The story goes that Muller, after a couple years working for Budd, approached Budd with the idea of designing a FWD car.  He was given the green light but before finishing the car, was sent to Europe on assignment in 1928.  While he was gone, Led had started his own version FWD but he had no technical knowledge on how to design the transmission.  When Muller returned in 1931 to the states, he finished off both and so there are two versions but it was Ledwinka's version that was selected as the template for the Citroen TA.  Muller's version was pitched to the other car companies by shyster Andrews and was what would become the Ruxton.

 

Development engineer Col. Earl James Wilson Ragsdale, worked with Muller on the project while Childe Harold Wills assisted with the transaxle, and Joseph "Led" V. Ledwinka worked on the Muller body as well.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by James B. (see edit history)

[8E45E]

The original two-part article:

 

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Craig

[8E45E]

The June, 1981 Budd article:

 

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Craig

[James B.]

Oh WOW, thanks again Craig!!!!  I have a lot of reading to do 

 

Barry, did you say that the Ruxton body was channeled 3 or 4 inches down around the frame in the restore pages (and elsewhere)?  If so, didn't that reduce the interior headroom the same amount in an era when men wore hats and needed that headroom to drive with them on?

 

Jim

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by James B. (see edit history)

[8E45E]

For those so interested, the August, 2021 issue of The Automobile magazine from the UK has a well-written article on Pressed Steel Company History and their relationship with Edward G. Budd.

 

The article includes a photo of a Wolseley Messenger, which shared dies with the Dodge Victory Six.

 

Craig