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Ruxton Body question


James B.

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I did not see a Ruxton topic folder so hope this is a proper place to post my question here?

 

Does anyone here have a definitive answer as to who built the bodies for Ruxton?

 

We know that Budd was to have assembled them but there seems to be conflicting information.  Several sources point towards Wolseley model 21/60,  which apparently were identical to the Dodge Victory Six body, having their die stamps altered for Ruxton and then shipped the stamped body panels from England to the US for Budd to assemble.   Others seem to think the dies were shipped here for Budd to stamp parts themselves.   And there is another school of thinking asking  "why" would Budd not make the bodies from scratch but use other company dies?   And possibly rather than importing the Wolseley dies, actually altered Dodge ones instead?

 

Any idea as to which theory is correct?

 

Thank You Everyone ahead of time for your answers...

 

Jim

 

Edited by James B. (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Wolseley. They split the front and widened it. Look at Barry Wolk's thread on restoration of a Ruxton; you clearly see the split.

 

Are you saying Wolseley made the panels and shipped to America or did Budd have the dies shipped to America and they stamped the panels here?

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Budd was a specialist in stamped steel and they made bodies for many different cars including Wolsely and Dodge. They had branches in England Germany and France.

 

When they wanted a body for the Ruxton they did not tool up for a brand new body for a car that might sell a few hundred or at most a thousand a year. They took an existing body and altered it.

 

Why they chose that particular body and exactly  how and where  they made it I don't know.  But the way they went about it was just a common sense use of what they had on hand, to turn out a new car in the shortest time and at the minimum expense.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Budd was not a car manufacturer but they supplied a lot of parts to the auto industry including bodies and wheels. In the twenties and thirties they made several prototypes of front wheel drive cars and rear engine cars. The front wheel drive experiments became the Ruxton and the Citroen, one of the rear engine cars evolved into the Lincoln Zephyr.

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Rusty... that is very interesting about Budd and Wolseley but I am still a bit perplexed as to if Budd imported the altered dies to make the body panels in the US?  Or, had the panels made in England with the altered dies and the stamped body panels shipped to the US?  Or if they used existing Dodge dies in the US and altered them instead of using Wolseley if they were identical?  And if no to the Dodge dies, why not?  Or were the Wolseley dies obsolete?

 

Thanks again!

Jim

 

 

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All,

All the extant Kissel histories and archives indicate that Ruxtons were built at the Hartford Wisconsin Kissel plant when Kissel was in its death throes. In August of1930, the financially strapped Kissel plant was idled for retooling for a front wheel drive car, the Ruxton. Kissel reorganized and began making transmissions and parts for Ruxton. Kissel also assembled complete Ruxtons and, according to Chief Engineer Herman Palmer, 26 Ruxtons were Wisconsin Kissel-built. William Kissel drove a Ruxton which I'm told still exists. There is conflicting history as to whether Kissel also made bodies for some of these Kissel. They certainly were capable of this, since Kissel had just stopped manufacturing their famous "White Eagle" models.

That's all I know.

Thanks, RON

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What I have to say here is pure speculation. Perhaps someone will go through the Budd archives if they still exist and get the facts.

 

Later......... went through this post and revised it in the light of new information.

 

 Budd was a major manufacturer of pressed steel parts with subsidiaries in England, Germany and France.

 

When they needed a body for the Ruxton they did not spend the time or money to make an all new body. They picked one 'off the shelf' as it were. The Wolseley body was suitable.

 

 James B came up with a clipping that proves the Wolseley bodies were entirely made in England. The Ruxton bodies were made in the US from Wolseley stampings supplied by Pressed Steel Company suitably modified. The modifications were to the cowl area of the body to fit around the engine. The cowl was widened and different firewall and floor made up.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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You guys are great.  Wow, lots of great information!  So now Rusty, are you saying that you think that Dodge body panels were pressed here and shipped to England for altering then shipped back to the states for assembly?  Isn't that counter productive though?  Why not press and assemble them here?  I did a search of Ruxton and Wolseley through a newspaper search site I subscribe to and only came up with one 1929 newspaper in Dallas, TX that even had mention of the two names linked...odd.  But attached is the pertinent part which seems to eludes that the bodies were stamped by Wolseley and assembled here by Budd.:

 

 

rux 1929 .jpg

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This is a small bit of what I have put together about Ruxton and may give us some hints?   I have more but ... 

 

As you mentioned, Budd was not in the automobile business nor did they want to be.  They did make prototypes though and William Muller had persuaded Budd to allow him to create one based on his FWD design only after having worked at Budd a few years.  His design sat idle when he was spirited away to Europe on business (met with Citroen for the first time then?).  While he was away, Ledwinka designed his own body for another FWD design and when Muller returned, finished both prototypes since Lud did not know FWD engineering.  So, there were two different style prototypes with the one Lud designed, the one used by Citroen.  I have photos of both.  Now, a controlling board member and swindler named Archie Moulton Andrews, caught sight of Muller's car at the New York car show and fell in love with it.  They had secret meetings away from Budd and tried to sell the idea to several companies, including Hupp (Hupmobile), where Andrews was also on their board, but was unsuccessful even though a prototype was also built for them.  So, not wanting to be defeated, they decided to build it themselves and moved the project to the Board Machine Company with the intent of having Budd make the bodies.  New Era Motors was incorporated on May 23, 1929.

 

They needed a company to build the car and deals had been made with a couple struggling companies including Gardner in June 1929.  Andrews had announced the Ruxton in May and promised that production would begin that July, but Muller wouldn't finish the first Ruxton Model A prototype until August, right around the same time the Cord L-29 was introduced. Marmon was also approached and ready to sign a deal the day of the stock market crash in October 1929, so pulled out

.   
Andrews then approached Moon Motor Car on November 24, 1929, to build the car in an exchange where they would receive shares in the company as long as Andrews could be on the board.  A deal was struck on February 22, 1930, but to land the Ruxton contract, Moon’s president, Carl William Burst, ceded majority control to New Era.  A backup plan was also in place with Kissel Motor Car, who was building the transmissions, to also build some of the cars since Moon was financially strapped and their equipment antiquated.  May 1, 1930,  Consolidation of New Era and Kissel to build the cars per patents.  The aging Moon facilities proved inadequate. In late summer, Andrews brought in the better-equipped  Kissel Motor Car Company of Hartford, Wis., which had been manufacturing the intricate Ruxton transmission since March. But New Era’s outlook worsened. Moon did not produce its first car until June; in September, after building 20 vehicles, Kissel collapsed.
 

By November 15, 1930, a stockholder of the Moon Motor Car Company, filed suit against the company, alleging mismanagement, dissipation of assets, etc., and asked for the appointment of a receiver. On the same day that the suit was filed, Seneca Curtis Taylor, a member of the St. Louis Bar, was appointed temporary receiver. November 20, 1930, an amended petition was filed in which certain creditors joined as plaintiffs.  December 2, 1930, Taylor was made permanent receiver, and later, other creditors intervened.  December 11, 1930, nine days after Taylor was made permanent receiver, he filed "an application for order to liquidate."  This receivership and subsequent liquidation included the stamping dies to build the Ruxton and so the car was dead in the water.  New Era filed for bankruptcy November 29, 1930.

 

None of my information mentions Wolseley except for what was in my original post which lead me to wondering....  which dies were used, which direction the stampings came from, and how the whole body construction thing worked between the two?

 

Thanks again!!!

Jim

Edited by James B. (see edit history)
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The cars were assembled at Moon in addition to Kissel.

 

The sedan body was a one piece side stamping. It was modified to channel over the Budd chassis. The body was sent to the US in 4 basic pieces. The 2 side panels, the rear panel and the cowl assembly. The rear panel was unaltered, but the cowl was split and 4" was added to the windshield header and dash support. A new cowl top was stamped. Because the engine was in backwards there needed to be access to the "front" of the engine, so the majority of the firewall could easily be removed for access to the timing chain. The splitting of the cowl changed the angle of the side panels to the rear panel leaving a slight valley at both seams.

There is a lot of controversy about how many Ruxtons were built. They claimed a fictitious 500 in order to be considered a higher level of manufacturer when in-fact there were fewer than 100 made. There were only 135 Continental backwards-installed and backward-running engines made by Continental. The balance were used as replacements and were used to build about 10 cars during bankruptcy. The car I had a hand in restoring was one of the last built in 1932.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Off topic but interesting. Kissel went on to manufacture Water Witch and Elgin outboard motors for Sears Roebuck and Co and produced torpedo shells during WWII.

 

That is interesting.  Muller's family worked for a munitions company in Brooklyn, NY called E.W. Bliss which launched Bill Muller's love of machinery.  They manufactured presses and dies for making sheet metal goods as well as munitions, including ship torpedoes and high explosive shells. Bill's father was a machinist.


 

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22 minutes ago, Barry Wolk said:

The cars were assembled at Moon in addition to Kissel.  There is a lot of controversy about how many Ruxtons were built.

 

Thanks, Barry.  That Ruxton is awesome!  I am sure was a daunting task being such a rare car.

 

So, you are saying, like the newspaper eludes to, the body panels were pressed in England using altered Wolseley dies and shipped here for assembly.  Which still leaves questions...  

 

If the Dodge Victory Six was identical, why not alter those dies which were already here in the states saving shipping costs?  Or, was the Wolseley body obsolete in England so no longer needed hence altering them?  If so, why not ship the dies here and stamp out the bodies in the states, again, saving additional shipping costs?  Just trying to figure logic here.

 

Thanks!

Jim

 

 

 

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If you look at the reveals on the Dodge body sides, you will see that the Ruxton is NOT a Victory Six body. The only thing that looks similar to me on the two bodies is the shape of the windshield.

Edited by keiser31 (see edit history)
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Barry, from what I was told the two bodies were identical.  Channeled like the Ruxton, I doubt but the general panel shapes were supposed to be identical.

Anders Clausager, BMHIT archivist said:

 

" Since the Pressed Steel Company dies used for various Wolseley bodies and for the Morris Isis were duplicates of the Dodge Victory Six dies, I guess the Dodge dies remained in Philadelphia, and that the Ruxton panels were most likely made on the Dodge tooling, not the PSC/Wolseley/Morris tooling. "

 

But then there was no definitive answers and he was also in the mind set of why import bodies?

 

Jim

 

 

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Can you post pictures of both bodies? I have detailed body shots of the Ruxton body. I'm not convinced they are the same. I've found that what is written is not always true. It's written that there were 500 Ruxtons, and that's been proven wrong.

 

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9 minutes ago, Barry Wolk said:

Can you post pictures of both bodies? I have detailed body shots of the Ruxton body. I'm not convinced they are the same. I've found that what is written is not always true. It's written that there were 500 Ruxtons, and that's been proven wrong.

 

 

Someone else may beat me to it but I'll give it a shot. :)

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19 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Dodge Victory Six body. notice the wide reveals on the panels....

 

 

Explain what you mean by "wide reveals" for us who don't know the term... like me.

 

Also keep in mind you have to look at it objectively because the original dies that was supposed to have been used to make the Ruxton, were altered to Ruxton specs so some dimension and design changes were made but the basic original outline were the same since used those dies.  They won't be identical twins but fraternal twins - the same.

 

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Looking at the photos, the red Wolseley 21/60 appears to be a match to the Ruxton. According to the clipping shown by James B the Ruxton bodies were assembled in the US by Budd, using stampings imported from England. They would be from the Budd subsidiary company, Pressed Steel.

 

So Budd made the bodies for Wolseley in England, and these bodies were modified (per Barry Wolk's description of widening the cowl) and assembled by Budd in the US. These bodies were installed on chassis made by Kissel under contract to New Era Motors, the manufacturer of Ruxton cars.

 

Here is a picture of a 1931 Dodge. How close is it to the Ruxton and Wolseley?

 

5943098699_e3eb17acd4.jpg

 

1931_Dodge_Eight-DG.jpg

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Not the same. Just look at the front door window. Totally different shape. Totally different height. Body stampings on the doors don't exist on the Ruxton.

 

I think you're seeing something that's just not there, James. The Ruxton body is channeled 3" over the frame and the Dodge body sits on top.

 

Close, but no cigar.

Edited by Barry Wolk (see edit history)
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8 minutes ago, Barry Wolk said:

Not the same. Just look at the front door window. Totally different shape. Totally different height. Body stampings on the doors don't exist on the Ruxton.

 

I think you're seeing something that's just not there, James. The Ruxton body is channeled 3" over the frame and the Dodge body sits on top.

 

Close, but no cigar.

The 1931 Body DOES drop down around the frame a bit, but it is not a Ruxton body.

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I think you guys are again, looking for identical twins that you can swap bodies with but there is no such thing.  The dies for the Wolseley, Morris, or Dodge (whatever dies used) were changed up to make the Ruxton.  More than just the width change at the cowl.  Also keep in mind, the Ruxton was advertised to be 10 inches lower in height than its competitors which is done in part by channeling .  But I am sure, without floor panels, the other bodies could be altered to drop down around a frame also. Altered, edited, changed or in other words, destroyed dies - keep that in mind, to stamp out the Ruxton.

 

Edited by James B. (see edit history)
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I am looking for shared body panels. Doors, roofline, window shapes. We know the cowl was altered and made unique for the Ruxton. To share other stampings would be a common sense way to get a suitable body in the shortest time and at minimal expense. This is not unusual, there are many examples of body designs being shared between makes, both custom body designs and mass produced bodies.

 

But at least some stampings would have to be identical and unmodified for it to make sense.

 

The Wolseley body matches the Ruxton but I can't find any Dodge body that matches either. I think someone made a mistake about the Dodge.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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I guess a definitive answer will never be know as to what dies were used or how much they were altered unless we run across documents (which the Wolseley archives are not complete) or find someone or an old interview somewhere that reveals the answer.

 

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Don't know who that is Barry, but can you add to this since you own a Ruxton?  There have to be some background about this since there are references in books and newspapers to the altered dies?  The person at BMIHT seems to have scoured the archives at Wolseley not able to come up with an answer?

 

Thanks

Jim

 

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The person at BMIHT probably started the rumour, jumping to conclusions....

 

I think you need to take some measurements. The doors must be the same length and height, the window the same length and height, the rear window the same, the belt line the same, etc. Clearly the belt lines on the Dodge Brothers and the Wolseley are different. Otherwise this is all conjecture.

 

I think it is nonsense trying to compare a 3/4 view of one vehicle to a side-on shot of another.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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