89 Fuel Injectors

sosuzguy · October 8, 2013

I'm sure some of you have replaced your injectors. I've only replaced injectors once on my 84 Turbo Riv, so I'm not sure if the application is the same.

I've got half of the new injectors and the o-ring kit sold but I noticed the new injectors already have o-rings on them. There is also some sort of short sleeve that came in the sack with the o-rings. Is there suppose to be two o-rings on each end of the injector? I'm just casually asking since I'm still waiting on the other injectors to come in. I haven't researched this yet either. Any tips/advise greatly appreciated. Thank you. Jayson

2seater · October 8, 2013

Without a photo it is hard to guess, but I will try anyway. If there is a single sleeve that came with the o-rings, my guess is it is an installation tool to perhaps slide a new one over a sharp edge? That sort of thing is sometimes done with valve seals over the tip of the valve. If it came with each injector it is likely a protective sleeve for the business end of the injector. There should be only one o-ring on each end of the injector. Sometimes there are also washerlike spacers along with the o-ring itself.

padgett · October 9, 2013

As long as the injectors are matched and of sufficient capacity the exact flow capability is unimportant. In closed loop the computer will adjust the flow rate to achive the commanded mixture. If a lot different/more the BLM may show some odd readings.

Machiner 55 · October 10, 2013

In closed loop the computer will adjust the flow rate to achive the commanded mixture.

How does it adjust the flow rate?

John F.

2seater · October 10, 2013

It can adjust the injector pulse width, within limits, up or down to keep the O2 sensor within the happy zone. The BLM will move up or down (long term) to get the integrator into the range around 128. The only caveat is if the injectors are substantially off, it may run rich or lean for a short time until the O2 becomes active and/or closed loop. I am running 22#injectors, about 16% too large, on the stock chip right now. It's a little fat when cold but adjusts just fine after warm up. BLM is down in the teens.

How does it adjust the flow rate?
John F.

drtidmore · October 10, 2013

Just replaced all six on my '89 (motorman) and it was very straightforward. The refurbed injectors I installed came with new top and bottom O-rings. Don't know what those sleeves that I see associated with the O-ring kits are used for.

Don't get in a hurry when doing this. I had some issues getting the locking pin out of the main injector harness due to the plastic being rock hard. Once the rail bolts are removed, fuel lines removed and the main injector harness is unplugged, a bit of gentle tugging frees the injectors and rail from the intake manifold.

Pressing inward on the metal clip associated with each injector electrical connector allows you to remove the connector, but I still had to be patient and gently rock the connector side to side to release the snap tabs. Before you remove the injector locking collars, take a REALLY good look at how they attach and how they look when properly installed. Lastly, pull off the injector locking collars.

Removing the injectors from the rail was a matter of rocking the injector while pulling it. The O-ring is seated into a grove inside the fuel rail, so it does take some effort to dislodge them.

I applied a small amount of silicone grease to all the new O-rings to ease with reassemble. Install the new injectors into the rail, then install the locking collars ensuring that they slip into the slots cut into each side of the injector and then snap into the flared part of the injector rail port. You probably will need to rotate each injector to install the locking collar and then afterwards to get the injector to align with the electrical connector. After you are ABSOLUTELY sure that the injectors are properly locked into the fuel rail and the electrical connectors are all attached, slip the assembly back into position above the intake manifold and guide the injectors into the intake ports. They slip into the intake with less effort than the rail. Do NOT force the injectors into position, they should just nicely slip into place.

Reconnect the main injector harness connections and the fuel lines after bolting the fuel rail back into position. I recommend that you go to www.reattaowner.com and review the use of the "green" fuel pump test connector. This allows you to power up the fuel pump, refilling and pressurizing the fuel line as well as looking for leaks before you actually start the engine. Easier to deal with any leaks while the engine is still cold.

Start to finish was less than hour on this project.

David T

Edited October 10, 2013 by drtidmore (see edit history)

sosuzguy · October 11, 2013

Thank you David. Sounds just like when I changed the injectors on the Turbo Riv. My injectors (NOS) came with replacement o-rings (Delphi) came with a packet of replacement o-rings. I suspect they are actually for another version of replacement injectors that probably didn't have the correct O-rings to begin with but IDK. They look the same size as the o-rings on the injectors but I'll switch them out anyway. I finally got all 6 injectors but one of them had the tip damaged so I had to send it back and wait again for a replacement.

Edited October 11, 2013 by sosuzguy
spelling (see edit history)

drtidmore · October 11, 2013

Curious as to the source of you replacement injectors?

I got mine from Motorman (www.injectors4u.com) as others on the forum had previously had good experiences. I was extremely pleased with the refurbed injectors from Motorman. I actually found that he was running a slight sale on ebay due to an overstock of the injectors that fit our 3800 series engines ($19.95 ea). They came well packaged and protected from each other.

My decision to replace the factory injectors was a very subjective one mainly based on age and the fact that I had my Reatta in storage (fuel system was properly prepped) for a number of years. The original injectors did NOT seem to be causing any issues that I could detect but at 25 years of age and 128,000 miles, I looked at it as a maintenance issue. On inspection of the old injectors, the lower O-rings were in REALLY bad shape, so again, it was time. With the refurbed injectors that engine idle may be a tiny bit smoother, not that the idle was rough with the original ones, and it may have a bit more torque when accelerating.

I am considering sending my OLD injectors to www.mrinjector.us to have them refurbed as spares. He charges $16 per injector and appears to use the same cleaning machine and refurb process as Motorman, only difference is that he uses your OLD injectors. The price difference between the no-core approach of Motorman and use your cores approach of mrinjector is trivial, but since I have the old ones, might as well send them for refurb rather than tossing them.

David T

sosuzguy · October 11, 2013

I bought mine from the Reatta store

sosuzguy · October 28, 2013

I just got mine replaced tonight. My idle is so much smoother now! I hope the hard start tomorrow is gone....

Machiner 55 · October 28, 2013

Jayson,

I am considering sending my OLD injectors to www.mrinjector.us to have them refurbed as spares. He charges $16 per injector and appears to use the same cleaning machine and refurb process as Motorman, only difference is that he uses your OLD injectors. The price difference between the no-core approach of Motorman and use your cores approach of mrinjector is trivial, but since I have the old ones, might as well send them for refurb rather than tossing them.

Glad to hear that your idle has smoothed out with the installation of the injectors. I've been battling a "lumpy" idle since swapping out the engine in my '90 Reatta. (see the "Knock" posts.) I'm not sure if the idle issue was there with the original engine or it came with the '90 Bonnie engine. I was so focused on the knock issue that the idle issue could have been there all along.

I've done everything I know, possible (which in the grand scheme of things isn't much) to rid myself of this problem.

When time permits, I'll post a list of tasks performed as well as results of those tasks. My latest attempt is sending the set that came from the '90 Bonnie to Mr.Injector mentioned in a previous post. They should arrive at their shop today. Hope to hear from them soon due to the fact that the injectors that came from the '90 Bonnie didn't fire when commanded. All six were stuck closed. My guess is it's due to the injectors having sat for an extended time at the salvage yard. So, I put the injectors from the '90 Reatta back in to get the engine to run. And I'm here to tell you that it runs very well. Hit the gas and its all go. It's just that the way it idles is aggravating. BikeMikey has an issue with his idle and I'm hopeing to resolve mine and pass the info along.

I ordered and received a set of new injectors but I am sending them back. I'll explain later when I get home from work. Gotta go now....

John F.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

sosuzguy · October 28, 2013

Well this morning it still had a hard start, but not near as bad. New fuel pump, new injectors---What's next that could be causing it? Pres Reg?

October 28, 2013

Fuel pump relay, and or pressure bleed off.

Rent a gauge from your FLAPS and monitor pressure after pump shuts off.

While spec is pretty low, should hold for some time with no bleed down.

What does it show in the morning after sitting all night, and how much does it come up with the 2 second bump after you turn the key to on?

Gauge will also tell you if regulator is working, and if you filter is clogged.

sosuzguy · October 28, 2013

I have the pres gauge, I'll get some values and report back in a few days. Thanks!

Machiner 55 · October 29, 2013

I ordered and received a set of new injectors but I am sending them back. I'll explain later when I get home from work.

The reason I've sent the new injectors back is that the nozzle end doesn't match the injectors in our cars. The guy that sells them says they'll work but I'm not buying it. To see why, Check the attached pics. The middle injector is from my '90. The ones on either side are the new ones. The ones with the little yellow plastic cap.

John F.

drtidmore · October 29, 2013

Having JUST been down this same path, I finally discovered that it was the ethanol on the gas that had hardened and shrunk the rubber couplings on the pulsator (installed between the fuel pump and the pipe leading out of the gas tank). I replaced the injectors, pressure regulator, fuel filter and fuel pump and still had hard starting. With the new pulsator in place, where previously the pressure on the fuel rail fell like a lead brick once the fuel pump power was removed, the rail will hold 40PSI for well over an hour. It is wonderful knowing the when I go to start the Reatta, it will kick right off.

If you find that the fuel pressure builds up to the correct levels but bleeds off fast, or instantly, your in for a fuel tank drop. While replacing the pulsator alone may cure your problem, it is a wise decision to replace the fuel pump and stainer while the tank is off. FYI, get one of the newer turbine design fuel pump and forego the pulsator entirely (i.e. a short piece of ethanol compatible rubber hose in its place). The pulsator was strictly a noise control device and had no effect on the actual fuel delivery. If I ever drop that tank again, the pulsator is HISTORY!

David T

2seater · October 29, 2013

I understand the concern about the type of tip configuration, and I shared the same. However, I have used that style with success for several years now. The only caveat would be to not remove the cap on a used injector unless you have a new one to replace it. The plastic does get hard after years of heat cycles and it will almost surely crack if removed and reinstalled. This isn't really a big deal in manifolds that have a ledge inside the injector port to seat the cap against, however ours is bored straight though, and if the cap falls off, the o-ring will likely go with it and create a nasty vacuum leak. My 22# and 30# injectors are the plastic cap style, the 24# (from a Corvette) has a different style steel tip, and all work fine. The stock injector is a Bosch -901 (last three digits), a 19# injector @ 3 bar. I know it is sorta late in this story, but I have heard nothing but good things about the Bosch Type III injector, although I have no personal experience with them. Smoother running and possibly slightly better mieage due to the improved atomization. This is one video of the differences:

The reason I've sent the new injectors back is that the nozzle end doesn't match the injectors in our cars. The guy that sells them says they'll work but I'm not buying it. To see why, Check the attached pics. The middle injector is from my '90. The ones on either side are the new ones. The ones with the little yellow plastic cap.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]220448[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220449[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220450[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220451[/ATTACH]
John F.

Machiner 55 · October 30, 2013

The plastic does get hard after years of heat cycles and it will almost surely crack if removed and reinstalled. This isn't really a big deal in manifolds that have a ledge inside the injector port to seat the cap against, however ours is bored straight though, and if the cap falls off, the o-ring will likely go with it and create a nasty vacuum leak.

This is the exact reason I gave the seller for sending them back. I didn't want to think that every time I headed out on the highway there would be a chance of those caps, o-rings and spacers being sucked into a cylinder.

John F.

2seater · October 30, 2013

I understand completely. This is what changed my mind. It is the stock injector for an aluminum L27 manifold, AKA "snakes". It is a Bosch -917, essentially the same flow rate as for the vin C, actually slightly less. It has a plastic cap in the end for O-ring retension, although a slightly different style since it has the five discharge holes like the -901. The manifold is bored straight through, just as the LN3.

Machiner 55 · October 30, 2013

It has a plastic cap in the end for O-ring retension, although a slightly different style since it has the five discharge holes like the -901. The manifold is bored straight through, just as the LN3.

Had I known this I might have given them a try but, I was kind of freaked by the ease that the caps unsnapped from the nozzle. My reason for buying these in the first place was that I was getting new injectors for about the same price as refurbed ones.

PS,

Just got word that the injectors I sent to Mr.Injector last Friday were shipped out this morning.

Pretty fast turnaround if you ask me.

John F.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

2seater · October 30, 2013

You certainly can't go wrong using the O.E. style as originally installed. The turnaround sounds good. Please post if they come back with a flow rate or perhaps a deviation from one another. I have seen them done both ways or no comment at all. Usually stock injectors are pretty good with no more than a 2%-3% variance. Just my personal preference, but I install the "fat" ones in the #1 and #2 locations (if known), just due to the airflow characteristics of the manifold.

Machiner 55 · October 30, 2013

Hal,

Your injectors arrived and have been serviced. They were stuck but I was able to get them cycling again and did a deep ultrasonic cleaning. They cleaned up well and are well balanced. There is a full report in the package.

Thanks for the referance data. The above quote suggests what I'll receive with the injectors upon their arrival.

I'll post the results at that time. Probably this Friday.

Machiner 55 · October 30, 2013

Someday I’ll post what all I did in search of a cure of the “lumpy” idle on my ’90.

For now it will have to suffice that I post why I decided to go to the injectors.

I purchased, via Ebay, a Kent-Moore Port Fuel Injection Diagnostic Kit # j 34730 which included the injector tester # j 37430-3. Never having used one or seen one used, I check out some youtube videos to get an understanding of one. During my first attempt I thought I was doing something wrong because no matter which injector I checked the pressure would drop down from about 40 psi to 2-3 psi. The reason I say “about” is because once I pressurized the system via the green connector, I’d get 44-45 psi initially and once the power was removed from the connector the pressure would drop to 40-41 psi then slowly bleed down. So, what I did was pressurize the system, disconnect the power and as soon as the needle on the gauge hit 40 psi, I’d push the test button. The gauge needle would them slam down to near zero.

Those readings were as follows. From an initial reference pressure of 40 psi, the press. drops were:

1 - 7#

3 - 7#

5 - 6#

2 - 7#

4 - 7#

6 - 6#

I was fortunate that my son was here and I was able to check and compare one car with the other. When I checked the ’89, I found that not only would the pressure drop to 40 psi and hold after an initial reading of 45 psi but that the pressure drop after pushing the button on the injector tester would go to 26 psi (+/- 1 psi). By the way, the pressure on my '89 would hit 40 psi after an initial 45 psi and stay that way probably forever but, at least an hour for sure. I know this because I left to run some errands and when I came back an hour later, the pressure was still indicating 40 psi and didn't move until i opened the relief valve on the gauge.

The first course of action was to change out the fuel pressure regulator. The pressure hold was much improved but inconsistent. Suspecting a faulty check valve in the fuel pump, I dropped the tank and change out the pump and the screen as well as the fuel filter. The balance test then showed pressure drops on my ’90 similar to the readings taken from my ’89. The readings are as follows. From an initial reference pressure of 42 psi, the press. drops are:

Injector:

1 – 26#,

3 – 27#,

5 – 26#,

2 – 25#,

4 – 24#,

6 – 22#

These numbers are repeatable.

Since these readings are outside the range provided in the FSM, I decided to change out the injectors.

John F.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

Ronnie · October 30, 2013

My encounter with a rough idle was cured by changing the MAF sensor. Have you tapped on yours with the engine running to see if it causes the engine to stumble?

sosuzguy · October 30, 2013

Fuel pump relay, and or pressure bleed off.
Rent a gauge from your FLAPS and monitor pressure after pump shuts off.
While spec is pretty low, should hold for some time with no bleed down.
What does it show in the morning after sitting all night, and how much does it come up with the 2 second bump after you turn the key to on?
Gauge will also tell you if regulator is working, and if you filter is clogged.

Key on my PSI goes up to around 40.

Car running at idle stays around 35/36psi increasing with throttle.

After key off one time it leaked down over night but comes right back to 40 with 2 sec bump and key on, but still a longer cranking time than normal.

After the morning reading though it was only at about 30psi later that afternoon.

I'm not sure what's wrong. Guess I'll test the pres reg next but I suspect it's good. Looks like the gas tank will have to be dropped for the 3RD TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Probably that damn pulsator. I had the Buick dealership drop the tank and put the pump in since I had no facilities to do that.

Machiner 55 · October 30, 2013

My encounter with a rough idle was cured by changing the MAF sensor. Have you tapped on yours with the engine running to see if it causes the engine to stumble?

Don't want to get too far away from Jayson's original post but, yes, the MAF has been hit on, cleaned, swapped out etc. Doesn't change anything.

John F.

Machiner 55 · November 2, 2013

Well, my injectors arrived from MrInjector today. Too late in the day to install them but, I gotta tell ya, I'm impressed with their appearance and packaging. Each injector arrived in it's own heat-sealed bag. All six were then sealed in a larger bag which was then wrapped with bubble wrap and placed in a box for shipment. Opening one of the bags I found what looked like a new injector. Clean as can be with new paint on the body. New Viton O-rings with the correct spacers installed in addition to all the other things they do to make them "ASNU" Can't wait to get them installed.

drtidmore · November 3, 2013

My Reatta sat all last week without being started. Yesterday afternoon after getting back home, I went out and after allowing the fuel rail prime cycle to complete, she kicked off instantly. After chasing the hard starting issue for what seemed like an eternity, I was really relieved. With everything in the fuel delivery system replaced at this point, I hopefully am good to go for many, many miles.

David T

2seater · November 3, 2013

First class looking job. Nicely matched set by the looks of the flow chart. I will bookmark them for future reference. Thanks.

Well, my injectors arrived from MrInjector today. Too late in the day to install them but, I gotta tell ya, I'm impressed with their appearance and packaging. Each injector arrived in it's own heat-sealed bag. All six were then sealed in a larger bag which was then wrapped with bubble wrap and placed in a box for shipment. Opening one of the bags I found what looked like a new injector. Clean as can be with new paint on the body. New Viton O-rings with the correct spacers installed in addition to all the other things they do to make them "ASNU" Can't wait to get them installed.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]221044[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]221045[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]221047[/ATTACH]

89 Fuel Injectors

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