Starter trouble

[Guest JouniK]

Hi!

I know starter problems have been discussed here before but I may have different issues

First I´ve had some trouble starting the Rivi when engine hot for about a week. Yesterday it got so bad that the engine did not start, BUT the starter would not stop turning even when I turned the ignition off. (it did not spin the engine fast enough to start but tried anyway) When the engine is cold there is no trouble starting it.

I removed the starter and found out that the pinion stop retainer snap ring was missing! I inspected and cleaned the starter last summer (new bendix and solenoid), it worked well until now.

So could the missing snap ring be the reason for hard starting when hot? It definitely may be reason for the starter getting stuck ..

BTW, how about those mini hi-torque starters?

Thanks!

J

Edited May 26, 2013 by JouniK
grammar ;) (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

I assume that when you say the engine would not start when hot, you mean the starter would crank it, but it would not fire.

You need to confirm you are getting spark when hot.

Do you have electronic ignition? They are notorious for having a problem when hot, but working fine when cold (as my good friend Ryan learned -- he thought it was the carb).

If you still have stock ignition, try a new condenser.

I don't think you need a high-torque mini-starter.

[Guest JouniK]

I'm sorry, I meant cranking The starter wont crank the engine fast enough when hot - > no start..

With jumper cables the car starts.

J

[Jim Cannon]

OK, if it cranks with jumper cables, then you are not getting enough current to your starter to crank when hot from just your battery alone.

Three things to look at:

1. Is the battery good? Have it tested hot. The battery that you are jumping from is adding to the battery current you have now. Between the two, you have enough current to crank it over. Use a battery tester that puts a known load on the battery (simulating cranking) and reads the voltage at the battery. In the US we have automated battery testers that you input the cranking amps rating of the battery and it puts the correct load on the battery.

2. If you have excessive voltage losses between battery and starter, then you will not deliver enough current to the starter to turn the engine over.

You need to check, and fix or possibly replace, all the battery cables, the cable ends, the battery connections, the ground cable connection at the engine, and where the starter mounts to engine. Cables can have corrosion and other problems inside and under the insulation, where you can not see it.

At each connection, put a volt meter on each side of each connection, or at each end of a cable, and read the voltage drop across the connection while someone cranks the engine when hot. It should be quite small to zero. If not, you have a bad connection or bad cable. Note, I am not saying read voltage from cable to ground -- which would be 12 volts when not cranking -- I am saying read voltage across the connection or cable ends. This should be zero when not cranking and go up a bit when cranking. If it goes up more than a few 1/10's of a volt when cranking, look for problems there.

Someone might have put too small of a gauge wire cable on the engine at some point in the past (because they cost less). You may need to put in heavier gauge cables. In the US we call them 2 ga. and even 0 ga wire. You will find them in Europe at a place that supplies parts for heavy trucks. We have places here that will make cables up for you to exact length and with desired cable ends. They need to be soldered on, not crimped on.

Even if you determine that the battery needed to be replaced, I recommend checking all your connections and cables, to get the maximum cranking voltage to the starter. My stock starter spins my nailhead hot or cold.

3. Your starter may simply be demanding too much current, more than it should and more than your battery can supply. It may need to be rebuilt. A starter shop should be able to measure the current while cranking and give you a feel if it is excessive.

A hot nailhead takes a lot of torque to crank it over. If you are going to rebuild or replace your starter anyway, then yes, you might want to look at the high-torque mini starter.

To get help with all of the above, I suggest working with a shop that specializes in heavy trucks, not cars (unless the shop specializes in big American cars, like the Riviera). Heavy trucks deal with this sort of thing all the time. Your smaller car engines in Europe do not (not to the same extent).

Hope this helps.

I've always wanted to visit Finland. Send me a ticket and I will personally diagnose the problem.

[Guest JouniK]

Thanks Jim! The labour costs a lot around here so buying You a ticket might be cheaper than having the battery and starter checked

I called a few local shops but they can´t help me.

I installed all the new cables last spring (0-1 ga with soldered ends), but I´ll check and clean the connections again.

Those starters are rare here but I remembered a guy in my town that owns Buicks, and he happened to have starter for 63 Riviera!! I´m hoping I get that tomorrow.

The battery seems ok, but it might be that the alternator is not powerfull enough to keep the battery fully charged. I now have 2 compressors for the airbags, and even they are not running that often, it may be too much. The alternator I have is also new, but only 60A, if I remember correctly..

Jouni

[RivNut]

I had hot start problems with my '63. It turned out that the windings in the starter were going bad. I had those replaced and never had another problem. I knew it wasn't battery, wires, or anything but the starter motor. When it was hot and turned slowly or didn't turn at all, dousing the starter case with some cold water cured the problem. If the same works for you, look into having the starter motor rebuilt.

Ed

[Bluzharp]

GM starters are notorious for this problem, and the cold water test, as Ed suggested, should confirm it. Had the same problem with mine, and a professionally rebuilt starter solved the problem for good.

Art

ROA#12350

[Guest JouniK]

Thanks guys, I´ll try that! Can I use the windings from another (not so rare) starter?

J

[RivNut]

If there's a company that rebuilds alternators, generators, starters, etc. they should have what you're looking for. Not something that I would take on myself, but more power to you if you are able to do this sort of repair.

Ed

[Jim Cannon]

No, you need to use the coils for this starter. This is not a rare starter in America.

You could have some new field coils shipped to you from the USA and then have a local shop that specializes in starters put them in for you. It is not a DIY job.

First do the cold water test (I had forgotten about that) and then we will go from there.

BTW, the "cold water test" is the companion test for these GM starters called the "big hammer test". Often times when you turn the key you get nothing, just a click. Rap the starter one or two times with a big hammer and try again. I have been able to extend the life of a GM starter several weeks doing this. Eventually it does not do the trick, so you cannot count on it for long. But it is good for an emergency start or two.

It does not work on a very slow turning starter, like you have. It works for the time you get just a click.

[steelman]

Should you decide the replace the starter, keep in mind that GM made two different starter housings. Several dozen noses, but you can reuse the old nose. GM made both Hi-Torque and Lo-Torque starter housings. Nailheads should have a Hi-Torque housing. You can tell the differece from the outside. Hi-Torque has the prong that goes through the case at the very end, near the end bearing cap, and a spacer is used between this prong and the soleniod. A Lo-Torque housing has this prong about an inch further up on the bell of the housing and the solenoid will connect direct to it. You can swap a Hi-Torque housing for a Lo-Torque, but should never go the other way. All GM products used one of these two cases for several decades, they are not rare. Just swap the case and reuse your old nose. Take a look and see it sometime over the cars life, someone has put a Lo-Torque starter in place, not knowing the difference.

[rocky5517]

What does he mean "compressors for air bags"?

[Guest JouniK]

He means this:

J

[Guest JouniK]

More trouble!!

I got the used starter from this local guy. I installed it but now just the starter spins but won´t crank the engine :mad: So the problem may be the starter drive. The old starter had this same problem until I replaced the drive, after which it worked fine. Now I´m thinking is there something here that I´m missing or am I just having bad luck

J

[RivNut]

If you have a '63, the nose and starter gear needs to reach deeper into the bell housing than a 64 or later starter does. The starter ring gear for a 64/65/66 is on the flex plate, right next to the back of the block. On the '63, the starter ring gear is on the torque converter farther away from the back of the block. The shorter starter drive on the 64/65/66 won't reach deep enough to start a '63.

Ed

[Guest JouniK]

Thanks Ed, but the starter housings are identical..

J

[RivNut]

The cases are identical if you have two '63 units or two '64 - '66 unites. The case are the same length but the noses that bolt to the case and fit inside the bell housing are different lengths. As I said, the '63 has to reach farther into the bell housing to reach the ring gear on the converter. If you've inspected or seen a '63 flex plate you know that it's in the shape of a triangle and there's no ring gear on it.

If you'd like I can scan a picture of each starter from the respective chassis manuals and post them. There are no dimensions given, but you can tell by looking at the pictures that the '63 starter has a longer nose on it. On the '63 starter, there's a rather large spacer on the pinion shaft between the engagement gear and the overrunning clutch. On the '64, there's no such spacer. There's a half inch more length to the '63 nose and pinion shaft w/gear than on the '64-'66 unit.

Here's a copy and paste from Russ Martin's website when he discusses swapping transmissions:

The 57-63 starters (yes 4 different ones used) have a 1/2" longer snout for the Dynaflow so the starter from the 64-66 (or my mini gear reduction starter) must be used and will bolt onto the 61-66 blocks.

Can you take any measurements off you starter? What's the distance between the case and the end of the nose? I'll measure one that's on the shelf for comparison.

Ed

Edited May 31, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Guest JouniK]

Problem solved!!

The original starter:

The insulation of the brush was non-existent So the other field coil was out of business...

And the problem with the starter #2:

Someone had messed with this one before, the clutch was not working at all.

I assembled one working starter from these two, problem solved \o/

Thank You all for Your advice! Now I need to sort out some running issues

Jouni

[Jim Cannon]

Great news!

[Guest 1963 Riviera]

A 6' 8" guy goes into a bar with a set of Jumper Cables around his neck. He asks the Bartender for a beer. Bartender hands him a beer and says "..here you go. Now don't start anything."

BRILLIANT !