fuel injectors 88 reatta

[Guest whitey]

Has anyone ordered Reatta fuel injectors # 217-322 and received a micro spray version ? I recently ordered 6 new AC Delco injectors from Amazon and received 5 micro spray ( have tiny 4 hole discharge ) and one that has the one hole standard nozzle tip. I would guess that the micro spray would be better but have no information on them. I need to return something here so that they match....any suggestions?

[padgett]

Sounds like something AC would do, if you have the box look for a slight difference. Saw this before then Rapidfires went to platinum. See Padgett's AC 3 vs 14 Spark Plug Page

[2seater]

The photo of the injector on the Amazon site looks just like the standard Bosch -901's that came in my '90. Do all injectors look the same externally? GM uses Bosch injectors as standard on many engines, and if they are, the part number is on the plastic part near the electrical connection and will start with 280-. The last three digits, -901, are the standard 19# injector, and does have multiple holes in the business end. You certainly want all injectors to match and oddly enough, Amazon says it has only one left? Maybe it is your missing injector?

As far as I know, Delco does not make injectors, although in recent years there are Delphi brand, which is a pencil style (thin body), that is supposed to be an excellent replacement with a better spray pattern and quicker response. GM also used Rochester brand (Motec) which has a very large body. The vast majority are actually Bosch, even ones found in Fords with their part number on it.

Edited November 20, 2012 by 2seater (see edit history)

[wws944]

There is an old thread here about 'upgrade' Bosch injectors: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/fuel-injector-utube-videos-257040.html

Might be fun to find the missing sixth four-hole injector FTW.

[Ronnie]

Do all the boxes look alike and have the same number? I'm wondering if a '91 injector got mixed in with your order.

[Guest whitey]

The photo of the injector on the Amazon site looks just like the standard Bosch -901's that came in my '90. Do all injectors look the same externally? GM uses Bosch injectors as standard on many engines, and if they are, the part number is on the plastic part near the electrical connection and will start with 280-. The last three digits, -901, are the standard 19# injector, and does have multiple holes in the business end. You certainly want all injectors to match and oddly enough, Amazon says it has only one left? Maybe it is your missing injector?

As far as I know, Delco does not make injectors, although in recent years there are Delphi brand, which is a pencil style (thin body), that is supposed to be an excellent replacement with a better spray pattern and quicker response. GM also used Rochester brand (Motec) which has a very large body. The vast majority are actually Bosch, even ones found in Fords with their part number on it.

All boxes are ACDelco, all have GM# 25531465 and ACD# 217-322. All injectors are embossed 280 150 901. I think Amazon took that 1 that was left and added it to 5 new ones that came in just recently.

Edited November 20, 2012 by whitey (see edit history)

[Guest whitey]

Do all the boxes look alike and have the same number? I'm wondering if a '91 injector got mixed in with your order.

1 box with the stock looking injector is bigger but all the numbers match: ACD# 217-322 and GM# 25531465

[Guest whitey]

The photo of the injector on the Amazon site looks just like the standard Bosch -901's that came in my '90. Do all injectors look the same externally? GM uses Bosch injectors as standard on many engines, and if they are, the part number is on the plastic part near the electrical connection and will start with 280-. The last three digits, -901, are the standard 19# injector, and does have multiple holes in the business end. You certainly want all injectors to match and oddly enough, Amazon says it has only one left? Maybe it is your missing injector?

As far as I know, Delco does not make injectors, although in recent years there are Delphi brand, which is a pencil style (thin body), that is supposed to be an excellent replacement with a better spray pattern and quicker response. GM also used Rochester brand (Motec) which has a very large body. The vast majority are actually Bosch, even ones found in Fords with their part number on it.

All injectors are coded 280 150 901. There is a 3 digit number that is embossed on the same side of the injector, near the electrical connector...the 5 micro sprays show #927, the original (6th) injector shows # 050. The micro sprays come with a yellow tip on the business end that is difficult to remove so I stopped trying since I will be sending all back to Amazon. Also the seal seating spacers are different(nozzle end). The micro spray type (5) are about 1/4" shorter overall. The rail end and electrical connector are all identical.

[2seater]

Very peculiar. I could see the GM number being the same, if they are equivalent injectors with subtle appearance differences but the actual manufacturer (Bosch) part # should be different? I have more than a dozen of the -901's and they are identical. I agree they should be sent back. Perhaps Bosch did a running change in design but a new part number should be assigned. They have several injectors in the proper flow range, 19# @ 43.5 psi, all with different numbers.

Stan Weiss' - Electronic Fuel Injector (EFI) Flow Data Table

EDIT: I scrolled down through the injector listing and there is indeed two different flow rates listed with the same part number. Either would work but only with all of them matching. This is very strange. I have used this injector list for years and there was never two listings for this part number. If the rated pressure was different, then the same part number would have a different flow rate, but that isn't the case.

Edited November 20, 2012 by 2seater (see edit history)

[Guest whitey]

Very peculiar. I could see the GM number being the same, if they are equivalent injectors with subtle appearance differences but the actual manufacturer (Bosch) part # should be different? I have more than a dozen of the -901's and they are identical. I agree they should be sent back. Perhaps Bosch did a running change in design but a new part number should be assigned. They have several injectors in the proper flow range, 19# @ 43.5 psi, all with different numbers.

Stan Weiss' - Electronic Fuel Injector (EFI) Flow Data Table

EDIT: I scrolled down through the injector listing and there is indeed two different flow rates listed with the same part number. Either would work but only with all of them matching. This is very strange. I have used this injector list for years and there was never two listings for this part number. If the rated pressure was different, then the same part number would have a different flow rate, but that isn't the case.

If this was a running change then I would expect the box packaging to be identical. While all the ID was the same, some were stamped on the end flap with the information and others had printed labels. Only 2 of the 5 micro spray had identical box labelingl. One had a MADE IN GERMANY stamp so your Bosch sourcing is correct.

[Guest whitey]

Very peculiar. I could see the GM number being the same, if they are equivalent injectors with subtle appearance differences but the actual manufacturer (Bosch) part # should be different? I have more than a dozen of the -901's and they are identical. I agree they should be sent back. Perhaps Bosch did a running change in design but a new part number should be assigned. They have several injectors in the proper flow range, 19# @ 43.5 psi, all with different numbers.

Stan Weiss' - Electronic Fuel Injector (EFI) Flow Data Table

EDIT: I scrolled down through the injector listing and there is indeed two different flow rates listed with the same part number. Either would work but only with all of them matching. This is very strange. I have used this injector list for years and there was never two listings for this part number. If the rated pressure was different, then the same part number would have a different flow rate, but that isn't the case.

If this was a running change then I would expect the box packaging to be identical. While all the ID was the same, some were stamped on the end flap with the information and others had printed labels. Only 2 of the 5 micro spray were identical. One had a MADE IN GERMANY stamp so your Bosch sourcing is correct.

[Guest whitey]

I have decided to buy the one remaining injector in Amazon's inventory because I believe it was part of their last November, 2012 shipment of 6 where I received 5 (of the newer design). If it turns out to be the missing micro spray injector then I will have a full set of 6, the odd injector goes back. I am really curious to see if these work better than stock. If this next new injector is not a match then Amazon has agreed to accept back all 7 injectors and have extended my 30 day return based on the new order receipt. In reality, it looks like all new inventory may be of this micro spray design. Time will tell. I pity the next guy who is trying to match up original equipment since nothing in the identification has changed.

[Guest whitey]

There is an old thread here about 'upgrade' Bosch injectors: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/fuel-injector-utube-videos-257040.html

Might be fun to find the missing sixth four-hole injector FTW.

I think I am dealing with a GEN #3 Bosch injector in 5 of 6 of the injectors they have sent me.

[2seater]

If the (5) injectors are the very slim design, they are the type III, which is supposed to be better in many respects. If you watch the video referred to earlier, you will see the yellow colored one is the type III.

[Ronnie]

I'm sorry to hear you are having problems with parts from the Reatta Store.

[Guest whitey]

It's not the store but the Amazon supplier. Who would have guessed ACDelco would do a switch without some changes in the ID numbers. Although this has been a hassle, the expectation that this a better designed injector is good. Amazon has been very good to work with on this issue. I guess forum members just need to be aware that the design has changed and that inventories might be a mix of designs. Overall, my experiences with the Reatta Store have been very good....a real time saver and great prices.

[Guest whitey]

If the (5) injectors are the very slim design, they are the type III, which is supposed to be better in many respects. If you watch the video referred to earlier, you will see the yellow colored one is the type III.

I watched the video and that helped me decide to buy one more injector and try to form a set of 6. Worse case...they all go back. The injectors I have are all black, made in Germany and shaped very similar to stock. They are a little bit shorter with a more narrow tip and plastic tip shroud . I need to take a picture of them side by side for the forum once I figure out how to upload a photo to a "Reply". My take is that these are outsourced from Bosch and made to look like Delcos'. After all, they keep all the ID the same.

Edited November 21, 2012 by whitey (see edit history)

[Guest whitey]

I think I am dealing with a GEN #3 Bosch injector in 5 of 6 of the injectors they have sent me.

I take this back. Doing some research now makes me believe these are Design 2 (GEN 2) Bosch injectors. The injector shape, plastic tip and the 4 hole discharge looks the same. Only the all black color looks different. All of this was deduced from the "fuel injector utube videos" you referenced.

[2seater]

Sounds good. I hope it works out well. As for an image, the one I sent earlier was just right clicked, copied and dropped in. Alternatively, if you click on the "insert image" icon in the toolbar above, it brings up a menu to allow you to choose an image from the computer or a URL to something like Photobucket or others. I, for one, am curious as to how this works out.

[Guest whitey]

Injector on left is the micro spray version I believe is a variation of a " Design 2" Bosch. It is shorter than the stock nozzle on the right and has a yellow plastic tip/shroud. Note the 4 pin holes on the left nozzle versus one large hole/orifice on the stock nozzle. I will follow up if I get a complete set of 6.

[2seater]

Interesting. The one on the right looks like the stock configuration. If you look closely inside the single large hole, there should be four or five small holes. I have never tried, but I would bet the extended tip is removeable, the same as the plastic cap. The tip/cap on the end simply retains the "O" ring that does the sealing in the intake. I always ASSumed the metal end was part of the injector body so I never fooled with it. I have a few junk injectors that I will try to see if that long metal cap can be removed and possibly be replaced with the plastic style. I guess that is a long winded way of saying I believe the injectors are the same. I suspect the chart in the Stan Weiss site may be in error, and the difference in flow rate is due to a different pressure being used, although I have no evidence of this. Simply raising fuel pressure of the stock injector to 50 psi raises the stock flow rate by 1.3 lb/hr.

Edit: Nope, I was wrong, they are not exactly identical. The metal cap on the end of the stock appearing is threaded onto the end of the body. The 4-hole disc is a separate piece retained by the cap. When the cap is removed, the injector is the same length as an old style Bosch (30 years old), which has an exposed pintle. The metal cap won't thread onto the old style, which is smooth but the plastic cap will snap onto the newer style and can retain the multi-hole disc. Not sure what any of this means, but I would certainly want (6) matching injectors. Sorry for the rambling but I find these oddities interesting.

Edited November 22, 2012 by 2seater (see edit history)

[Guest whitey]

Interesting. The one on the right looks like the stock configuration. If you look closely inside the single large hole, there should be four or five small holes. I have never tried, but I would bet the extended tip is removeable, the same as the plastic cap. The tip/cap on the end simply retains the "O" ring that does the sealing in the intake. I always ASSumed the metal end was part of the injector body so I never fooled with it. I have a few junk injectors that I will try to see if that long metal cap can be removed and possibly be replaced with the plastic style. I guess that is a long winded way of saying I believe the injectors are the same. I suspect the chart in the Stan Weiss site may be in error, and the difference in flow rate is due to a different pressure being used, although I have no evidence of this. Simply raising fuel pressure of the stock injector to 50 psi raises the stock flow rate by 1.3 lb/hr.

Edit: Nope, I was wrong, they are not exactly identical. The metal cap on the end of the stock appearing is threaded onto the end of the body. The 4-hole disc is a separate piece retained by the cap. When the cap is removed, the injector is the same length as an old style Bosch (30 years old), which has an exposed pintle. The metal cap won't thread onto the old style, which is smooth but the plastic cap will snap onto the newer style and can retain the multi-hole disc. Not sure what any of this means, but I would certainly want (6) matching injectors. Sorry for the rambling but I find these oddities interesting.

My first inclination was to remove the yellow cap because it looks like it is a protective measure and I wondered how it would hold up to engine heat. It does not simply pull off. So I measured the diameter of the yellow plastic against the stock injectors' metal tip base....they are the same. This cap is to be part of the injector. When I look closely at the Design 2 vs. Design 3 Bosch utube video I see all plastic tips in place and somewhat discolored from use. Too bad these things don't come with instructions.

[2seater]

Yeah, don't remove it. It retains the lower O-ring which will be sucked into the intake manifold under vacuum without it. Old style manifolds actually have a step inside the injector hole which would retain the cap if it cracked but ours are drilled straight through. I was concerned about the lack of a secondary retention feature when using the plastic cap style, but I have had no issues using various styles of injectors. I have 22# Rochester Motec injectors in the car now which only has the O-ring in a machined groove right at the end of the injector body. There are many different styles out there.

Coat the O-rings with a light bit of motor oil when inserting into manifold and fuel rail. It will make life much easier. Removing the old ones is usually a bit of a struggle so watch for the O-rings being pulled off when removing. Make sure you remove them if they stick in place. Unless the injectors are physically damaged, the old ones can be sent in to be cleaned and flowed so you have a spare set.

Edited November 22, 2012 by 2seater (see edit history)

[Guest whitey]

Who rebuilds old injectors?

[2seater]

I have used Casper's Electronics in IL several times, but there are several others out there. It's not really a rebuild, since injectors rarely fail. Usually they are cleaned and reverse flushed and a new inlet screen is fitted. They will be returned with either the individual flow rate or a percentage of deviation within the set you sent in. Usually even an old set are within 2%-3% of each other, and most are better.

Specializing in automotive interconnect and wiring systems

[Guest whitey]

Yeah, don't remove it. It retains the lower O-ring which will be sucked into the intake manifold under vacuum without it. Old style manifolds actually have a step inside the injector hole which would retain the cap if it cracked but ours are drilled straight through. I was concerned about the lack of a secondary retention feature when using the plastic cap style, but I have had no issues using various styles of injectors. I have 22# Rochester Motec injectors in the car now which only has the O-ring in a machined groove right at the end of the injector body. There are many different styles out there.

Coat the O-rings with a light bit of motor oil when inserting into manifold and fuel rail. It will make life much easier. Removing the old ones is usually a bit of a struggle so watch for the O-rings being pulled off when removing. Make sure you remove them if they stick in place. Unless the injectors are physically damaged, the old ones can be sent in to be cleaned and flowed so you have a spare set.

I just have to ask. These injectors with plastic tips may hold the O-ring but what keeps the plastic tip on? There is no seats in the intake...like you said, drilled straight through. The worst case is the tip and the O-ring end up lodged some where in the intake manifold. How severe a problem is that, i.e. what kind of damage can that do? Just fishing with what ifs.

[2seater]

As I mentioned earlier, it was a concern of mine as well, but I have used a couple of different sets with the plastic cap with no issues. I was assured by an injector rebuild place that it would not be a problem either. So far, so good. I would look at them closely for cracks in the caps before installation, but you almost have to crack them to remove them, so I believe they are pretty firmly fastened. I don't believe the plastic cap would do any real damage and likeley just pass straight through the cylinder. In any case, if the cap decides to leave, it will suck the O-ring into the intake and a vacuum leak will result. You will know about it if it fails.

[Guest whitey]

Thanks 2seater. As a follow up, I did receive a 6th injector that was a match. installed them 2 days ago and really don't see much change in the performance or idle but I'll give it more time. This whole affair has gotten me very interested in newer injector designs and will probably find a matched refurbished set some where...nothing seems to be coming up for th eReatta so far. Where did you get your Gen 3's?

[2seater]

I wish I had Gen 3's but I do not have any of that style. Maybe sometime in the future if I determine a different flow rate is needed. I believe there was a post about a part number for the Gen 3 on this forum some time back, but I do not remember much more about it. The 19# fuel injector is a very common size and is used in many Fords and Chevies for their standard performance type V8 engines, in the 200-225hp range, such as a lot of the 5.0 Mustangs. Probably just do a search for 19# Bosch Gen 3? There are also newer injectors that have a different electrical connector. You need the EV1 style to connect directly. There are electrical adapters readily available to convert from one style to another.

[Guest whitey]

I'm continuing this thread because a current issue may be related. I'm talking about a EO44 code that has occurred twice over the last 500 miles but only when driving at 60-70 mph and in general, it rarely happens. This lean code triggers the check engine soon light which clears when the car returns to slower speeds. Out of all the possible reasons listed in the FSM, what would most likely be related to higher speeds? FYI the oxygen sensor is relatively new, as are the fuel injectors (see above post), fuel pump , fuel filter, FP regulator and ECM. It's possible these injectors are running lean as they were never tested. Overall, gas mileage and idle could be better.

Edited January 15, 2013 by whitey (see edit history)

[2seater]

If it is indeed running lean, the ECM should be trying to adjust the fuel feed to compensate. Watch the O2 cross counts, fuel integrator and block learn, ED18, 19 and 20, while driving at the problem speed Cross counts indicate it is changing from rich to lean and back as the system self adjusts, and the higher the number, the better. In the teens or above would be good. The integrator and block learn should center around 128, but may deviate above and below as the system adjusts. If it is significantly high, like 150 on the block learn, it is trying to add fuel long term. I don't remember all the details, so how is the fuel pressure now? Should be in the mid-upper 30's while operating at idle, and 40+ with the vacuum disconnected from the regulator while running or when the key is on and the engine off.

[Guest whitey]

This was a good suggestion. Took the car on the highway and monitored the ED18,19 and 20. ED18 , at times, would show 0.00 for a very long time then show more normal readings but always seem to rest mostly at 0.00. When this (0.00) happens the ED19 and ED20 would max out at 155. Seems the oxygen sensor was malfuntioning so I looked at the ED07 oxygen sensor readings that also showed 0.00 for a long period corresponding with the ED18. I parked the car and disconnected the sensor and with the key on checked the voltage to the sensor. That read 0.45 so there was voltage on the circuit. Swapped out the sensor and noticed the ease of removal (was not tight) and the wire separated from the connector. The replacement oxygen sensor solved the problem. Probably air was being sucked in around the threads of the old sensor at higher speeds( this answers my question above) and/or the connector was not making a good connection. Like I said above, the sensor I removed was fairly new but the installer could have torqued it tighter. Thanks again 2seater.