Bob Downunder Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I have restored this North East Distributor and drive unit. This drive unit differs from the usual units I have seen, in that it has a cover plate over the advance mechanism where the coil is normally mounted. This unit also has additional lugs where I assume the coil for this unit is mounted. Does anybody know what this coil looks like or have a picture that they can post to give me an idea of what I am looking for. Thanks Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Do you know what year it is from? This is from a mid-20's engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Downunder Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 I don't know what year it is from. I bought it at a swap meet in country Victoria. I am wondering if it is off a Graham Brothers truck. The identification plate on it says it's a Type 10386 distributor for use on 10004 or 10004A ignition units. Any information re, what type of coil would have been used with this unit, would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I'm pretty sure this is what you are looking for. Old Vintage Coil Dodge Brothers 20's Northeast? 12 Volts Lot of 2 | eBayAs for coil specs, I have been told that primary resistance should be 5 ohms, secondary is 3,500 ohms. This equates to 350 turns/12,000 turns of wire but I don't know the wire diameter off hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I do not think your distributor ass'y is Dodge Brothers, nor Graham truck. Note the mounting flange. It is backwards for the Dodge & Graham. Northeast supplied several makes of auto's with ignition systems. An "Echlin" coil will work with this unit if it is to be used. The part # is IC-12, for a 12 volt set up. You did a nice job restoring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Downunder Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Thanks for your responses chaps. Mike I can fit one of those coils you posted by just removing the auto advance cover plate and I will probably go that way.Pete, it has crossed my mind that this unit may not have been fitted to Dodge vechicles but I have fitted it to a Dodge 4 engine block using the 4 bolt mounting flange (see new photo). Other manufacturers probably used the same type of mounting so that they could use Northeast equipment. I still think that the 2 bolt mounting flange (see earlier photo) was for some other type of coil. Thanks for the compliment on the restoration of the unit. The auto advance mechanism was severly worn and I had to make several bits to restore it. Also replaced the horizontal and vertical shafts, distributor cap and drive flange. On the plus side, it kept me out of the pantry cupboard! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Bob, I completely missed the side photo in your first posting, showing the correct mounting flange for Dodge on the back side of distributor unit. As it is very similar to my '25 Northeast unit, Yours has a grease cup for shaft lubing, as all '25's I believe used a Zerk type grease fitting. Don't know much about the older cars. Keep in mind, if you plan to use this unit on a car you have for touring or even going around the block, I would suggest a modern type coil instead of the original since they are hard to find good ones and repro's,(if there are any), would be very expensive. Buying and using an unknown original coil for these units is a crap-shoot, since they can only be tested in a car at cruising speed, heated up and running. The Ohmmeter test is not a reliable test for auto coils. I'm sure someone will chime in to mention a coil bench testing machine, but I don't have one, nor know of any around here. NOTE; This is taken from my '25 Dodge Brothers book, stating the Northeast coil has 360 primary windings, secondary has 10,850 turns, producing 12,000 Volts at the plugs. There is more info about the advance weights, etc... but you may already have this info. Let me know. Best regards, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Pete Do you have a picture of an original coil ? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Yes, I have some original coils here. I'll have to disassemble a distributor unit later today and will post the photo's of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I'm back, with the photo's of a '25 or earlier Dodge ignition coil. I was quite surprised when I "cracked" open this old, dirty, rusty distributor unit to find a coil that looks to be a replacement from the 1940's or ?? This is from a Northeast #10004 type, Model "O", 12 volt distributor unit, Serial # 2852840. I've not seen this exact type coil with it's red and black plastic insulated wires, coil being encased with the lacquered cardboard end caps. The original 1925 style had an open frame, sometimes with exposed windings using the old style cloth wiring from coil to top terminals. The coil has a laminated outer frame and attaches to coil housing at base with a 5/16" hex nut and lock washer. (bottom of unit). A 5/16" nut fastens the top terminal assembly, through top cover to the coil top stud. Someone had previously attached a newer condenser on this unit as seen in the photo. Again, a Zerk fitting is in place instead of an older(?) type grease cup to lube the shaft bushings. Hope this brings some light onto the subject Bob and Ron! Best regards, Pete. Edited August 29, 2012 by Pete K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I think Bob Long and then Romars rebuilds these 4 cyl coils, pretty sure, I inquired to have my 6 cyl coils done and was told they only did the 4s. I dont know what sort of luck they have had with them though so it would be worth looking into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I'd like to find a modern coil that will fit inside the original casting. There has to be something out there that would do it but some sort of fabrication would probably be needed to get the secondary output to the side terminal. I know someone does rewind the original coils; I think I've seen them listed for around $200 from one of our favorite suppliers (Meyers or Romar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I'd like to find a modern coil that will fit inside the original casting. There has to be something out there that would do it but some sort of fabrication would probably be needed to get the secondary output to the side terminal. I know someone does rewind the original coils; I think I've seen them listed for around $200 from one of our favorite suppliers (Meyers or Romar).I would bet money you are correct, there is a more modern coil that would fit inside there. Its just gonna take asking around ( alot ) If you find it please let us know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I hear exactly what you say Mike. To all here on this post, my '25 came to me with the original coil by-passed and a newer type 12 V. coil installed on the firewall. I've come across a seemingly good orig. coil that will be tested out "for sure" when I get the car running. I've left the re-vamp modern coil in place, un-wired, "just in case". I'll never spend $200. on a rewound, new coil for the '25, It's just the principle with me, since I used to get impossible-to-find coils rewound for other type antique machines at a whopping cost of $12. and that's about the cost of a modern replacement automobile coil today that will work on the Dodge car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 What where the differences between the coils you had re-wound at 12 dollars and your D.B coil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Exactly Pete. If there was no alternative that would be a different kettle of fish. My original coil worked for a short time and then gave up.. The wires going from the top terminals had crumbling insulation and were very fragile. I tried to splice in new wires but to no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Thanks Pete for posting the picture of your coil Its just that I have a Northeast coil that is 12 volt and I was wondering what it fitted It is not the same shape as your one. I dont even know if its OK ore not I just baught it when I first got my Senior 6 thinking that it was the one to fit Then I found that my car is 6 volts so its still stashed away Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) The size of the coils Jason, were 1/4 smaller with finer gauge primary & secondary windings. The winding machine the man was using to do my other coils would be able to do an auto coil like the Dodge coil without much ado. This scenario with my rewinding man, in the Boston area quite a while ago, maybe 25 years ago, was an electric co. that was set up to do just that, rewinding coils, armatures, etc... One really needs a winding machine, or a lot of spare time to wind the 10,000 plus turns of primary wire on an auto ign. coil. The device was quite small, a table top sort of thing that had a counter set up to wind wire on a core, fed from a spool of the proper gauge wire. When it got to the end, he snipped it off and soldered it to the terminal it went to--Not brain surgery atall. For 200 bucks, I think one could procure a complete Dodge distributor unit on E-bay and possibly get a good coil in it. Edited September 1, 2012 by Pete K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Downunder Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Hi. I have decided to take your advice Pete, and use an Echlin IC-12, but am unsure whether it is used with a ballast resistor or not. I was going to use this unit in lieu of a magneto that is fitted to my 25 Dodge Tourer, hoping it will give better performance and fuel efficiency. Another advantage of the distributor is that it can be more easily and accurately timed. I haven't got any info on the auto advance other than when it starts to advance and when it is fully advanced. Do you know of any other alternative coils, equivalent to the Echlin IC - 12, and whether they would need ballast resistors or not, as the Echlin IC -12 is not readily available in Australia? Thanks for your help. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Bob, I think most any 12 volt coil will work OK on the '25 Dodge engine. If you can see what the coil is rated for, You'll need 12,000 Volts at the plugs. As you know, the Dodge, then, didn't use a ballast resistor in their circuit. Some modern coils have a built in resistor, others don't. Most all coils (or the box they come in) have a sticker on them with their part number, voltage rating, etc... and a notice stating the coil does not or does have an internal resistor. The previous owner of my Dodge (RIP), by-passed the old Dodge coil and installed the Echlin IC-12, a neat install I guess, but he must have panicked at the parts store when he and the "young"(?) counter man saw the sticker on the coil stating it needed a ballast resistor, SO...he bought and installed one in series with the positive wire from the coil to the distributor. The Dodge WAS driven for many miles with this set-up as I can attest, but I feel there is no reason to have the ballast resistor in this car. Having been brought up on many early cars in my life, I don't recall ever seeing a ballast resistor until I had a '34 Ford once that had one from the factory. I still have two Model A Fords, NO resistors in their circuits. I am speculative on the ballast resistor's intended use. Some say they deliver a hotter spark. or maybe it's the dawn of factory car radios that called for them. We can start with Ohms Law; I=V/R.( I, being the Amps, V, the Volts and R, the resistance.) A resistor is exactly that, A device to resist voltage and transform it to heat. Edited September 1, 2012 by Pete K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Meyers has a exact replica coil available. They are very well built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Do you know the cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Myers Early DodgeHere is the link to Meyers ignition parts page.. Price is listed and a core is not needed as these coils are complete new. Edited August 30, 2012 by platt-deutsch (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 A ballast resistor is used as a means of voltage control to the ignition coil to aid cold starting. As you know, cranking an engine on the starter takes a lot out of the battery; a ballast resistor effectively doubles the voltage supply to the coil while cranking the engine. Once the engine fires, the voltage to the coil is reduced and here the ballust resistor's other function is to reduce wear on the ignition components. With a 12 volt system, the ballasted voltage being used with the engine running is actually only 6 volts. Some cars have the ballast resistor in the wiring loom and others use a coil with it built in. You would fit a 6 volt ballast coil to a 12 volt system if you wanted to upgrade (my Dad did this a lot on old cars he owned) but if you have a 6 volt system like mine, I don't know if it would be possible or desirable. Most mechanics would convert the system to 12 volts - the changeover to 6 volts with the 2 unit set up being seen as a retrograde step.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 The 25 DB and before and a few after use a straight 12 volt coil. The Starter/ Gen does not load the battery anything like a later model with a Bendix Drive Starter. There are no ballast resister system on these vehicles..Not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Downunder Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 Since my last post I have spoken to an auto electrician and done some research on the Net and found that if a modern coil is used that doesn't have a built in resistor it maybe advantageous on a points system to fit a ballast resistor as it reduces the voltage on a 12 volt ignition system to say 9 volts. Then the heat buildup in the coil is less and also reduces arking at the points. Consequently you may achieve a longer life out of your ignition components. The reproduction coils are on a changeover basis and too expensive. Cheers Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Quite right; no ballast resistor fitted - none needed. No point in complication for the sake of it. Keep it original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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