Club or Business Coupe?

[jcmiller]

Is the car in the attached picture a business coupe or club coupe?

The body code is LA-402-A1660 which I think means club coupe. Is that correct?

Finally, the engine code starts with P13. My reference manual shows 1942 cars starting with P14 and 1941 cars starting with P10,P11, and P12. I can't find anything about P13. Does anyone know what the P13 means?

Thanks,

Jeff

[keiser31]

Rear seat? Club coupe. 1942.

[jcmiller]

Thanks. I can't really see inside very well in the picture but it sounds like you can tell the difference.

Is the P13 a 1942 engine?

[Guest Richie09]

Hi, Jeff, the P 13 engine code is interesting as '42 does only show a P 14 model. I'd like to run the car serial number to decode everything at manufacture. Do you have that available? Does look like a '42 and, yes business coupe would not have a back seat, let me run the serial to see what it was though. Richie

[keiser31]

Thanks. I can't really see inside very well in the picture but it sounds like you can tell the difference.

Is the P13 a 1942 engine?

I believe that the P-13 is a 1942 engine. The business coupe has a more gradual slope to the top/trunk transition. Here is a crude sketch of the difference......clearly the car in question has the crisp transition.

[Guest Richie09]

Jeff, just went on POC (Plymouth Owners Club) and did search of p13 and the senior moderator has said that there was no engine number p13 used and those that did start with p13xxxxx were early models, like from the '30s. Advised to look at it closer to be sure of the number because yours is clearly one of the models that was made after they started using the p numbers on engines that did indicate the car model number too. Richie

[jcmiller]

Thanks all. Here is the full engine code as reported to me: P131181-6.

[Guest Richie09]

Thanks all. Here is the full engine code as reported to me: P131181-6.

I ment the body or car serial number, do you have that? And do ask your source to look closer at the engine serial, just to be sure what you have undder the hood. Richie

[jcmiller]

Since I don't own it yet and some folks don't like publishing their serial numbers, I don't feel comfortable posting it here yet. I will say it is in the 3297001-3306756 series.

Can you tell more than where it was built from the specific serial number?

I'm going to look at it in a couple hours.

[Rusty_OToole]

I checked some lists of serial numbers and there is no P13. They just skipped the 13. So did Chrysler and Dodge.

There is an S13 DeSoto, for 1949.

[Guest Richie09]

I'm looking at the ply33.com site and in there the various years are listed. Your serial group is the Special Deluxe, P14C made in Los Angeles. Sorry, but vin-decoder I usually go to is for trucks only, so cannot get specific even if I knew the serial of your car. I was hoping that would also specify the engine serial number codes and production numbers.

Something else on that site: "starting in the mid '30s the engine number was stamped on the left frame rail somewhere around the rear wheel kick-up". I imagine that would be a very hard place to find a stamped in number (due to rust and whatnot) but could be a way to conferm what engine should be in it.

We sould need your source to re-conferm the P13(ect.) to move forward.

[jcmiller]

I wonder if 13 was skipped out of superstition? I've heard that some buildings don't have a 13th floor for that reason.

I looked at the car. The owner took the engine code off of the head rather than the block. I had a hard time reading the code on the block but it looked like D3P 35 205.

Do the lists of serial number ranges reflect ranges that were reserved for certain models/locations or do they reflect actual production? In other words, was the last P14C built in LA numbered 3306756?

I want to make an offer on it later today but have to clear with my spouse first. On my way out to look at it she said I had to sell the current project first.

[keiser31]

I wonder if 13 was skipped out of superstition? I've heard that some buildings don't have a 13th floor for that reason.

I looked at the car. The owner took the engine code off of the head rather than the block. I had a hard time reading the code on the block but it looked like D3P 35 205.

Do the lists of serial number ranges reflect ranges that were reserved for certain models/locations or do they reflect actual production? In other words, was the last P14C built in LA numbered 3306756?

I want to make an offer on it later today but have to clear with my spouse first. On my way out to look at it she said I had to sell the current project first.

Yes, the numbers reflect location built and yes, the last P14C from L.A. was 3306756.

[Guest Richie09]

Jeff, two things, I have the feeling that not looking the righ place to get the engine serial number. I hope I am right about that because numbers matching '42 would be a good thing: drivers side, front top of block just under the head is a raised, flat area of the block with number stamped into it, not cast into it so you will probably need a wire brush to clean it up and get the junk off this area to read it. It should start with P14, there may be stars between the P14 and the serial number itself. I have three blocks and rust of two of them made it very hard to read and was wondering what I was looking at.

I have read where it takes the spouse about a week to get over "adding another project". Its a hard call, but '42 was a limited production run and finding one with correct numbers matching may very well be good investment.

Good luck today. Richie

[jcmiller]

Thanks Richie. I'm pretty sure I looked in the correct spot. Same place as on a 1948 block, correct? But there was some surface rust and I had a heck of a time reading it. I made an offer and they are considering it. If they counter, maybe I'll add a contingency that it has to be the right engine and I'll revisit with some steel wool. I should have taken a better picture of the engine but all I have is what is attached here.

Regarding value, is there a chart on the web somewhere that shows approximate values for the different grades of this car? I'm kind of flying blind at this point.

[Guest Richie09]

http://www.townwagon.com/pgpws/pgengines/230fh.htm

Jeff, this link shows two pictures, scroll down near the bottom. I know, its of a 1960 Dodge, but this is where mother MoPar put the serial number going back at least to 1939, probably earlier too. Richie

Edited March 27, 2011 by Richie09 (see edit history)

[jcmiller]

They accepted my offer so I'll have this car soon, apparently with a Dodge engine unless I really misread that code. Thanks again for the help.

[Guest elmo39]

ok i,ll put my foot in it ,are you sure it,s not a 36 engine.which is a P1

[bigaadams]

could even be a back fitted P18..just looked like a 3

[ply33]

could even be a back fitted P18..just looked like a 3

That seems very likely to me.

Good looking car and there aren't that many 42s around.

[jcmiller]

I used some steel wool on the block and it still looks like the engine code starts with DP3. The owner had a book showing old engine and model codes and the only engine code I can find that starts with D3 is 1936 Dodge, built in Detroit for export. I've read that some of the 1942s were thrown together with random parts. I wonder if that happened with this one?

Do the attached pictures help?

(The P13 code discussed above was taken from the head - not the block.)

Edited April 3, 2011 by jcmiller (see edit history)

[keiser31]

The only photo that would really help is a close up photo of the number on the flat pad behind the oil filler tube just below the cylinder head and above the freeze plug.

[jcmiller]

Well it took three weeks, but I finally got a good closeup. The code starts with DSP. A book I have shows a code of DS for the 1934 "special." Do you think that is what this is from?

The only photo that would really help is a close up photo of the number on the flat pad behind the oil filler tube just below the cylinder head and above the freeze plug.

[Rusty_OToole]

That does not look like a factory number. It appears hand stamped.

In Chrysler Corporation code, D=Dodge, S=DeSoto, P=Plymouth. Also, C=Chrysler T=Truck and Ind=Industrial.

A normal engine number would have the letter for the make of car followed by a 1 or 2 digit number indicating the year or model followed by a sequential number.

First serial number for a 1942 Dodge would be: D22-1001

For a 41 Dodge, D19-1001.

It is not a 1934 block, they only had water jackets 1/2 way down the cylinders. Yours looks like a typical engine from the late 30s to the end of production in the early 70s.

So, it is not the original engine that came with the car but a replacement.

How long is the head? A Dodge or Plymouth should be 23" DeSoto or Chrysler 25 1/4"

Edited April 29, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[jcmiller]

Thanks Rusty. I also posted this over at the P15-D24 board and there are some interesting posts on this, which generally agree with what you wrote. I had no idea that hand-stamping was so widespread. I think the bottom line is that it can't be tied to a particular year or model and that it is almost certainly not the original motor. I'll measure the head next time I have access to it to at least narrow it down to D/P or C/D.

[Rusty_OToole]

The factory did supply new replacement engines with blank pads. The mechanic was supposed to stamp in the old number to match the car's registration but there was nothing to stop the buyer from using his mother in law's initials and birthday if he felt like it.

[bigaadams]

I did a bit of looking on the internet...using the initial of DSP and adding state of Oregon in the search, it appears that the DSP is the initials used by the Departmento fo State Police...for the state of Oregon

further it was a practice in those days that if an engine was replaced the title was to reflect reflect this change...replacement engines could easily have been state assignd #'s with the DSP prefix showing it is documented change..

Anyway..for what it is worth and based that a second person in the Portland area has a DSP engine in another car..this more than not could be verified by an Oregon resident through the local DMV..surely someone there has some recollection to the old title requirements when they used the engine number as the identification # on the titles..