powersteering

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

the power steering box on my 56 premiere leaks,at every seal.has anyone succesfully resealed? or should i get a rebuilt ?I know mkii ent. has them, any one else?this is not easy to take out,i know,i have 2 cars and took out both,but i have fenders off,getting ready for paint etc.as always your answers are appreciated,sometimes just don't get back on here for awile:).thank you.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

the power steering box on my 56 premiere leaks,at every seal.has anyone succesfully resealed? or should i get a rebuilt ?I know mkii ent. has them, any one else?this is not easy to take out,i know,i have 2 cars and took out both,but i have fenders off,getting ready for paint etc.as always your answers are appreciated,sometimes just don't get back on here for awile:).thank you.

I once asked a very experienced Ford certified mechanic a similar question after having failed twice in stopping a power steering box on a '79 T-bird from leaking by replacing the upper and lower seals. His response to my question of: "is it possible to rebuild one without it continuing to leak?" was a resounding no. So, it was to the salvage yard to find one that showed no signs of leaking as a new one from Ford was going to run several hundred dollars. Makes no sense that one should continue to leak after putting new seals into it and torquing everything by the book, they just do.

To answer your question, get a rebuilt with a warranty if possible.

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

thanks for response,thats what i was thinking,anyone build these besides mkii? seems captured audiences pay more;) thanks again

[NTX5467]

From my experiences, make sure that you're using the correct power steering fluid in the box. Back then, it might well have been ATF Type A or a particular hydraulic system sort of oil. In later power steering boxes, for which Chrysler and GM have their own spec Power Steering Fluid, if you put normal ATF in there, it'll start to ooze through the rubber hoses and probably start leaking. Older service manuals said it was OK to use ATF to "top off" a power steering system that was a little low, but if and when a leak starts, you'll soon end up with "red" fluid in the power steering system . . . and leaks. On my '67 Chrysler, which I bought used, it had "red" power steering fluid and the hoses were leaking. I got the "red" fluid out and put in the specified Chrysler fluid and the leaks and seeps stopped.

If the leaks are at seals which might be worn with time and wear and tear, new seals would probably fix the situation . . . provided there isn't a "wear groove" in the steering shaft it seals against. In that case, a new seal with more seal material might get down into the groove to stop the seep. The only lip seals will be on the input side of the gear and on the output side of the gear. Everything else will be flat gaskets and o-rings . . . with the o-rings possibly deteriorating with age and incorrect-spec fluid.

I've seen many dealership techs that want no part of power steering gears . . . other than to replace them as an assembly. Not sure why, but they'll shy away from anything other than lash adjustments, usually . . . although the factory service manuals detail how to completely disassemble and rebuild the gears. It might well take some "different" tools to get things put back together and re-adjusted correctly.

In getting a reman gear, I'd like to know just what they replaced internally. Even with a reman unit, you might need to do the final lash adjustments and such . . . but hopefully not always. Getting a "reman" gear that's just been resealed, with worn shafts and such internally would probably be not much better than what you've got now . . . but if they put new or refurbished items in there, it might be OK.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Basically good thoughts, especially the part concerning a worn area on the shaft where the seals should seat tightly. I'd suspect my own failures in rebuilding power steering boxes was exactly that issue, though visually and even from touch everything seemed alright. Problem is it doesn't take much an out of tolerance situation where the shaft and seals meet to have a leak. Solution would seem to be not only seal replacement but shaft as well. The question becomes just how easy is it for the do it yourself guy to get a new shaft? Apparently even dealer mechanics have a problem with that. I know for sure it doesn't come in Ford rebuild kits, which have only seals.

On older power steering boxes I imagine we're totally out of luck in finding new shafts for sure.

Jim

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

thanks ,my car called for type a,have no idea what has been in it ,but i went to napa,they said type a was not available.i have 2 boxes both leak,but i dont know if i can find seals so dont want to take apart.i have repair and parts manuals.any ideas?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Type FA is the closest currently available ATF replacement for Type A, and is readily available.

[Rusty_OToole]

Bearing shops sell thin metal sleeves for restoring worn shafts.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Type FA is the closest currently available ATF replacement for Type A, and is readily available.

Nope! Type FA is the same as Ford type F and contains friction modifiers specific to Ford Transmissions.

Type A was developed by GM, and probably Borg-Warner jointly, for use in early GM transmissions and those Borg transmissions used by other auto makers including Ford and everyone else at the time.

The progression of Type A has been through the last variations of Dexron including Dexron III and Mercon fluids. In other words if the manual on any vehicle specifies Type A for transmission and power steering fluid it is perfectly acceptable to use Dexron III or Mercon labeled fluid.

Under no circumstance should Ford type F be mixed with Type A, any variation of Dexron or Mercon labeled fluids whether in a transmission or power steering system. Type F contains friction modifiers that are totally incompatible with those fluids and creates a white foaming mess when combined with Type A and Dexron/Mercon fluids.

Note: If rebuilding any brand of transmission and replacing the clutch pack it is permissible to fill with Dexron or Mercon fluid regardless of the original called for fluid. Just make sure to remember the tranny is filled with a different fluid than originally specified. If changing fluid types be aware that the shifting characteristics may change from very smooth between the gears to very positive and/or visa-versa depending upon the make of the transmission.

Jim

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[Guest Silverghost]

I have had some luck with worn shafts that created leaks with the following methods.

If your shaft has a worn groove where the old oil seal was rubbing in the same spot to the point that a small area on that shaft is now undersized for the seal you can do several thngs.

Fill the groove with a quality epoxy such as Locktite Steel repair or JB weld Epoxy etc.

When cured smooth out the repair with wet-or-dry sand paper.

A good flux and low temp. solder will also fill this groove ! It's hard to solder steel~But with the correct flux and solder it can be done successfully.

The object here is to fill the groove & bring the worn area up to the standard shaft diameter.

You can also, depending on the type of oil seal, re-position the seal slightly in one direction or another to just miss, and avoid the worn shaft ring area.

The new seal will then be riding on a new un-worn shaft area . You may have to grind the edge of the seal slightly to thin it a bit do this re-positioning.

Or just don't tap the seal in the casting bore quite as much & deep as it was before.

Turning the shaft with a lathe and installing a shaft wear band collar, as stated above, is the BEST long-term fix!

I have done this with many harmonic balancers that leaked at the front engine oil seal.

Some quality complete gasket sets have these shaft wear repair collars in their kit!

It might also be possible to install a metric size seal that is slightly smaller in inside shaft bore dimension. diameter.

Your steering boxes fluid leaks should be easily fixable !

I have repaired several with the above methods.

Best of Luck !

Edited December 11, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Jim Edward, thanks for the info on the differences in fluids. I'm not saying your right or wrong but I'd like to research it further for confirmation. Reason I say that is that Packard's Ultramatic called for Type A, and by a large majority today's owners have found Type FA to perform the best, with smaller majorities saying Dexron/Mercon performs OK, and yet others having direct-drive clutch groaning with Dexron/Mercon which has corrected itself upon returning to Type FA. I know those are just observations and knowledge of the fluid additive packages would be more meaningful.

[Rusty_OToole]

The sleeve I refer to is very thin and is installed without machine work.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Jim Edward, thanks for the info on the differences in fluids. I'm not saying your right or wrong but I'd like to research it further for confirmation. Reason I say that is that Packard's Ultramatic called for Type A, and by a large majority today's owners have found Type FA to perform the best, with smaller majorities saying Dexron/Mercon performs OK, and yet others having direct-drive clutch groaning with Dexron/Mercon which has corrected itself upon returning to Type FA. I know those are just observations and knowledge of the fluid additive packages would be more meaningful.

As I said, changing the fluid type from the original in any transmission is going to alter the shifting characteristics. In some cases the shifts become smoother, while in other cases the shifts will become more pronounced. The variations in additives beginning in the 1950s was resultant of some auto maker perceptions that customers wanted a smooth shift, while another maker concluded the customer wanted to feel the shifts. It really doesn't matter what fluid is put into a transmission upon a complete rebuild, but it matters a lot if someone just thinks they have drained a transmission and puts a different fluid into it. Main reason is they didn't drain all the old fluid out without pulling the transmission and draining the torque converter as well. The resultant incompatibility of the mixed fluids will cause problems just as such a change might well degrade the clutch pack which will have absorbed a certain amount of the original fluid. Clutch pack discs may begin slipping in such circumstances with shifting becoming very erratic.

As for the progression of transmission fluids and discussion on the various types just about any refiner's web site has info, or many vintage car forum sites have info as well. This is a well discussed subject, maybe overly discussed!

Packard's Ultramatics are hard to compare from year to year given the transmission's rapid progression of changes in attempts to solve problems that plagued it. I'd say if you had owners of Packard's from 1949 through 1955-56 comparing performance you'd likely have as many opinions as transmission variants regardless of what fluid was placed in them.

Jim

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[Guest Silverghost]

Rusty:~~ I never saw a thin sleeve that could be installed wihout some machine work necessary.

Never knew they existed~~~ Interesting idea !

I will have to look into this next time i visit Bearings Inc.

This sleeve must be darn thin ?

I have seen shafts that have worn due to spinning inside defective bearings~

This sounds like a very fast inexpensive fix !

I assume you heat this sort of thin sleeve to expand it and slip it on the shaft ? Do you use Locktite 242 thread-locker or similar Locktite bearing retaining liquid to get a liquid proof prssure seal ?

How thick are the sleeves you are talking about ?

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

thanks guy's,i did put fa in;but mostly leaked out ,did seem as the pump might have leaked,.still on the fence but i think i'll take one apart and see if i can find o rings and seals.never hurts to gain a little knowledge.now how do i figure out what trans. fluid is there?i'll keep at it,thanks.

[Guest]

Bearing shops sell thin metal sleeves for restoring worn shafts.

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Thanks for mentioning that Rusty, and for all you guys out there with a worn in groove on the end of your crankshaft where the timing cover seal is located there is a thin metal sleeve for that too.

Don

[Rusty_OToole]

The sleeves I have seen were for worn front crankshaft seals. They slid over the end of the crankshaft and made a fresh surface for the seal to ride on. I don't think they would work for bearings.The metal was very thin. The sleeve worked with a stock crankshaft seal.

[Guest]

The sleeves I have seen were for worn front crankshaft seals. They slid over the end of the crankshaft and made a fresh surface for the seal to ride on. I don't think they would work for bearings.The metal was very thin. The sleeve worked with a stock crankshaft seal.

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Yes, I've got one in one of my Pontiac's---- works great.

Don

[Larry Schramm]

Dexron is now up to Dexron 6

[NTX5467]

Type A automatic transmission fluid was like "the original" automatic trans fluid spec. Until the first Dexron fluids came out in 1968, it was the basic default fluid for almost every automatic trans produced. IF you check many convenience stores, even supermarkets, you can generally find Type A atf there, but usually not the most recent atf variations. Some auto supplies (usually NOT the chains) still carry it, too, but not all of them. It IS still around, just not in the usually-suspected places.

Ford's Type F fluid came out about the same time as Dexron. Both were designed to provide smooooth shifts, just went about it differently. Ford, as was mentioned at the time, downsized their clutch plates' area and needed an initially-more agressive fluid spec to prevent undesired slippage. GM went the other way, with a little more clutch and an initially-slicker fluid so it would slip a little. It's widely suspected that the original B&M TrickShift atf was basically a Ford-spec fluid, as it gave a crisper shift in GM and Chrysler automatics. Be that as it may . . .

Ford's later Mercon V spec is usually combined with Dexron III in the aftermarket. Ford's OEM packaging, I believe, claims you can use their fluid in THEIR current power steering systems, too, but GM has their own power steering fluid instead. All depends upon the spec for the rubber in the seals and gaskets and what type of fluids they'll tolerate.

GM claims that their current Dexron VI (most probably a semi-syn blended fluid) is backward compatible all the way to the first Hydramatics and Dynaflows (superceding the earlier Type A spec), but Dex III variations are now called "Multi-Make", with the basic Dexron III orientation listed on the back of the bottle.

The reason that modern atf is so highly friction-modified is due to the modulation of the transmission torque converter clutch (off, partially on, full on) so that it has long life with long clutch life (converter clutch and regular clutch/band material). If they weren't highly friction-modified, lock-up shudder would result. PLUS, Chrysler has their own trans fluid specs which must be fully followed for good trans life! Not to forget about some of the import brands, too.

In the Allpar.com Chrysler service FAQs, it mentions that Chrysler's ATF+4 is a semi-syn blend fluid so that they wouldn't have any problems with seal compatibilities and a full syn fluid, which means their ATF+4 is a blended syn atf.

The "sleeves" are termed "MicroSleeve" brand sleeves. As mentioned, they are popular for fixing the crankshaft nose leaks from a groove worn in the crankshaft by the earlier seal and lots of miles. They might well have some for power steering gears and pumps. In some cases, reman power steering pump "gut kits" have gotten very inexpensive such that it's more cost-effective to use a reman pump rather than repair an existing pump . . . IF there's a reman pump available.

In some cases, aftermarket seal manufacturers know about this seal groove thing and provide replacement seals which have the lip seal repositioned in the main seal metal housing so that it contacts "fresh" metal rather than being in the same place as the original seal. This can have a better track record for re-seal situations. Seems like some companies have their front crankshaft and rear wheel bearing seals that way, but I'm not sure about power steering gears or pump shaft seals.

I can see where the JBWeld/expoxy repair might be a good one, IF you can get the repaired area completely round again, rather than being a little rippled. In other cases, it might be possible to get the worn area welded-up and then re-machined down to the original size. I've seen some truck-based machine shops that could do that for rear axle shaft bearing surfaces where the bearing had failed and eaten into the axle itself. When they got through, you could NOT tell it from a new shaft. Doing the same for a steering gearbox shaft might be a little more problematic, unless their lathes and such can handle something that small . . . but that might be something to look for.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited December 14, 2010 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

The newer transmission fluids have as much as 15% additives by volume. These additives include friction modifiers, anti-foaming, anti-oxidizers, etc..

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

well i went to the parts house,bearing store and hydraulic repair,no luck finding seals,or the o-rings. took my parts with me,the numbers were on the seals. my o-rings do not appear to have been round,more square edge,like a rubber band?.any way hyd. guy said his seals were only good for 10 # pressure.guess ordering rebuilt is only way? dont know if later boxes would have same seals but our parts people ain,t the best .part of the price you pay to live the country life.thanks again

[W_Higgins]

well i went to the parts house,bearing store and hydraulic repair,no luck finding seals,or the o-rings. took my parts with me,the numbers were on the seals. my o-rings do not appear to have been round,more square edge,like a rubber band?.any way hyd. guy said his seals were only good for 10 # pressure.guess ordering rebuilt is only way? dont know if later boxes would have same seals but our parts people ain,t the best .part of the price you pay to live the country life.thanks again

This shouldn't be rocket science. Sometimes o-rings take on a square look after having been squished in their respective cavities for so long. This happens in later Lincoln (crankshaft mounted) power steering pumps. Incidentially, there's an o-ring for that that's rather large that you can't get -- what you do is buy o-ring stock from MSC, or other such places, and make your own. Not sure how big of one you're running into. Just cut the stock to length and superglue the ends. This is an approved method for making o-rings, not just some crap I cooked up. You can tug on it and quite often it will break somewhere other than the glued joint.

I'm surprised that with seal numbers they couldn't even tell you if they were available anymore or not. Even with just and i.d. and o.d. they should be able to look them up. Try calling George Bachleda:

Olcar Bearing Co.

135 James Creek

Southern Pines, NC 28387

Phone: 910-693-3324

He's in the obsolete bearing and seal business. Believe it or not, as simple as they are, '52 Lincoln hub seals are no longer in production with no crossover and he got me a set.

As long as all your parts are good and not worn out, resealing your box is no big deal. Nobody has the market cornered on that.

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

you echo my sentiment exactly on numberd seals.shaft size also.but my o-ring lands are also square edge,i tried regular rings,couldn't get them in or to stay on the parts where only one side has a shoulder.going to try another bearing shop,and also your referecnce,thanks.just so noone thinks this is my first time at this sort of thing,i am a farmer,rancher,auto upholsterer,now retired for the 2nd time;)thanks all and please keep up the info,not only for me but all who need help,i'll try to do my part.

[W_Higgins]

you echo my sentiment exactly on numberd seals.shaft size also.but my o-ring lands are also square edge,i tried regular rings,couldn't get them in or to stay on the parts where only one side has a shoulder.going to try another bearing shop,and also your referecnce,thanks.just so noone thinks this is my first time at this sort of thing,i am a farmer,rancher,auto upholsterer,now retired for the 2nd time;)thanks all and please keep up the info,not only for me but all who need help,i'll try to do my part.

If you don't have an MSC catalog I'll check later and post a link, but they do have styles of o-ring cord that are other than round in their cross section.

[W_Higgins]

How about here on the left column?: Square Buna-N cord stock:

Browse the MSC Big Book

[Guest 38cadillacjack]

thanks walter ,maybe i'll get this yet. i did stop at napa yesterday,the man there found seals?he thinks.he also thinks he might be able to locate a kit.i have to go back in a few days to find out. the only guy that is helpful opens the store at 7 a.m .the other day it took 3 guys almost45 minutes to find a 6v bulb for one of my other cars,and they even had books and computer!thanks to all for help,this car is being "restored" not frame off but almost.new chrome, paint,new interior,new dash knobs,window switch knobs,i have made the molds and cast some already.it won't be fantastic show car but a very nice driver.was hoping for a spring showing,but maybe summer.