'65 Riv Starting Problem

[Bluzharp]

I've had a few occasions,mostly after running for an extended time, that I get absolutely NOTHING when turning the key to the "Start" position. No click out of the solenoid, no movement from the starter. Battery is fully charged, dash lights dim, jumping doesn't help. I can "jump" the solenoid and it will start right up. The shop I've taken it to says they can't find a rebuilt starter with the same bolt pattern as mine, so they're putting brushes in mine. I'm inclined to think the problem is more likely in connections or the solenoid.

Anyone else experienced this? Have others been able to find re-built starters through the "chain" parts stores? NAPA lists rebuilts for the 401, but my mechanic insists they don't bolt up the same as mine. This mechanic has a good reputation working on Collector cars, so I'm a little suprised to hear about the "bolt-up" problem, and not being able to find a local replacement starter in Oklahoma City, with parts stores on every other corner.

Any and all comments appreciated!!

Thanks,

Art

[sa-noia]

I have a 1964 Riviera with the 425 CI Wildcat 465. That's been in a state of restoration now for the last decade. I do have a comment on your problem starter however. I had a similiar problem with my 1971 Jag XKE V12. It would do that same thing. Turn the key "No response". I found that if you taped the starter (I used a metal Jack handle) lightly several times. It would work properly and start with the Key. A person who rebuilds starters said that the brushes are bad and if they stop on the armature just right(or wrong?) that the starter will not turn. Tapping moves it just enough to get it to work. If your rebuilding the starter with "New Brushes" Id get the solenoid too. I still carry the Jack handle just in case, I still need to rebuild it. Best of Luck, Stephen

[Guest Gee_Rydes]

If your lights dim when the key is turned, your connection is probably OK. If they did not dim, I would suspect current is not getting where it needs to due to a faulty connection.

Sounds like the starter motor is drawing more amperage than your battery can handle at that moment. Probably a fault of the starter.

I don't think these starters are that hard to find and I would suspect the shop would rather charge you more labor and less parts than the other way around. There is usually twice (or more) the profit built into labor than parts.

[petelempert]

This might end up being totally unrelated, but at least worth considering. On my 63 I had a similar bugaboo. My lights were sort of dull when I hit the key(which I credit to an aging, but not dead battery), but the starter did nothing. It was maddeningly sporadic. After checking out all typical potential ignition culprits, it turned out to be the switch in the floor shifter. I took out the switch and cleaned out a ton of junk...crumbs, fuzz, grease...you name it. That solved it. Again, it might be your starter...but this is an easy, inexpensive check. Best. PRL

[Guest Vetter]

I put a new starter in my 65 last month, although for a different problem (hard starting and eating batteries). If you're going through NAPA you need the one for the 425. Their book is mislabeled or something. Oh and yeah the 401/400 starter NAPA lists mounts on the passenger side not the drivers side, which you need.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Vetter (see edit history)

[RivNut]

I had a similar "no start when hot" problem with my '63. I know that this is going to sound weird, but to isolate the problem to the starter, I found that by running cold water over the housing, it would contract and let the armature spin again. Once I identified it as a starter problem, Hunt's Automotive Electric in Kansas City, MO rebuilt it to what they considered "high torque" status. Different coils in the case with different windings. What ever it was they did, was a final solution.

You could wait for a while for the ambient temperature to go down and see if the start problem continues. I only had the problem in the high heat of mid summer.

Ed

[startergenrebuilder]

Art,

I would be glad to help you with your problem. I specialize in antique auto electric rebuilding.

If you are just getting the brushes replaced, I highly doubt your money is being spent wisely. If your brushes are wore out then I would guess there is more wear on other components of the starter that would need attention. I can load test your starter just like it would be on the vehicle. One problem overlooked a lot in older starters or generators for that matter is OIL SATURATION. Oil/Grease works its way into all windings, wires and brushes over time. When you are dealing with electric motors, this is very important. Oil/Grease equals poor contact and high resistance. The units typically need to be torn completely down and properly cleaned, baked and re-insulated. At this time all components can be tested and evaluated. We can even go with a high torque set of field coils to help with this sort of problem. Solenoids, drive, brushes and bushings are replaced without question. Then when you get it back, you are guaranteed a trouble free starter. It does cost a little more, but it is a good long term solution. Feel free to call me with any questions toll-free @ 1-866-228-0218. Hopefully this helps!

Jason Smith

Advanced Electrical Rebuilders

16574 S. Bauer Rd.

Grand Ledge, MI 48837

[tim63riv]

If the starter is indeed bad, there are other options to explore. Russ Martin in Grass Valley, California. Has an ebay presences as "buick rodder" and handles a modern gear reduction mini starter for the 401-425 Nailheads. I've personally rebuilt the older Delco starters and have installed the more modern field coils to get more cranking power and that modification works well. Rebuilding starters and alternators is a dying art, modern economic realities make it more cost effective to just replace those units rather than pay a technician $100 + per hour to overhaul the starter.

Jason is confused about oil saturation!!! Buick's don't leak oil like those Bow Tie and Blue Oval engines do!! LOL!!

Tim

[RivNut]

You can also check with Tom Telesco in CT. He is the manufacturer, not a distributor, of a mini starter for the nailhead. He also makes a set of roller rockers for the nailhead. He was one of the ROA members on the Tech question session we had at the ROA meet in PA this past June. As Tom states, "If I don't have it, you don't need it." Extremely reputable and is one of the tech gurus that contributes to 'Da Nailhead' forum at www.v8buick.com

[Bluzharp]

Thanks to all for all the helpful advice and comments!

Turns out, everyone was at least partially right. Wound up having my starter completely torn down, cleaned, re-wound,re-bushed, etc. As Jason suggested, the coils were pretty nasty. Tapping the starter and/or dousing with cold water also helped. Cable connections to the solenoid(which was also replaced) were dirty and barely snug. All these conditions, combined with heat, both ambient and coming off the exhaust manifold just above the starter, combined to make starting a hit or miss proposition. Probably lucky it started at all, but HEAT definitely was the over the edge factor. All seems good now.

And yes, NAPA part # is screwed up. They carry a rebuilt starter, but you'd have to find it by "accident"

Thanks again for all the helpful responses!!

Art

ROA#12350