Avanti R2, 1963, refresh

[unimogjohn]

It is Sunday, June 6th. Very interesting. Greg sent me some emails between him and the retired Ford senior dyno engineer. With his permission I thought I would post them as they are of interest to me and am sure to many of you that are following this blog. Here is the first one, which includes the mechanical background for Greg, and a summary of what happened to the engine.

From Greg to the Engineer:

>>> Our mutual friend Dave encouraged me to communicate with

>>> you about today's motor oils.

>>>

>>> I should probably give you somewhat of an introduction. My life

>>> took a turn in the early sixties when I was in jr. high and

>>> discovered cars. When the other boys were thinking hot

>>> roadsters or Corvettes, I was taken with the early cars and then

>>> saw my first Avanti while walking to school and I've been pretty

>>> constant in those choices.

>>>

>>> Got my first car at 13, a Model A Ford for a dollar. Still

>>> unfinished, but still have it. I knew my future would lie in the past,

>>> and I've spent my life in restoration. Mostly early cars, but about

>>> twenty years ago I cross trained into the first airplanes. My day job

>>> is predominately restoration or duplication of Wright Brothers engines.

>>>

>>> Gathered several Avantis and they wound up in storage in the mid

>>> eighties. Decided I missed driving one and pulled one out for

>>> freshening up.

>>>

>>> This led to an engine overhaul. Even though it had two hundred

>>> thousand miles on it, it wasn't in bad shape inside. However I

>>> thought it was time for a rebuild and all the while I was thinking

>>> that I wasn't doing it a favor. New cam bearings that missed the

>>> drilling operation, rod and main bearings made in Mexico, new

>>> harmonic balancer with the timing mark off by 10*, new timing gear

>>> with more backlash than the old one, etc, etc, etc.

>>>

>>> Anyway, since my day job got me access to a local dyno shop, I

>>> thought it would be neat to break it in and try a pull or two with

>>> the supercharger hooked up so I could see some numbers.

>>>

>>> Things didn't work out very well.

>>>

>>> This wasn't my first Studebaker engine overhaul, and I've never hurt

>>> one of them. Until now. I may have made some poor choices in my

>>> approach, but with all my questions the motor oil problem is always

>>> present.

>>>

>>> I wiped out a very rare camshaft as well as circulating all the

>>> grit .

>>>

>>> The crankshaft came back today from being reground and I'm starting the

>>> reassembly.

>>>

>>> I would appreciate your opinion on the many questions I have.

>>>

>>> Seems like they keep changing the rules without warning and this

>>> old dog doesn't like new tricks. But I can try to learn.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Best regards,

>>>

>>> Greg

>>>

Greg,

>> I'll try to help if I can. I tested engines in Ford, Roush, and McLaren

>> dyno labs for over 30 years and I've seen a lot of strange things

>> happen.

>> Flat tappet motors can be rough on cams. At low engine speeds the loads

>> on valvetrains are at their highest (idle especially) so breaking in a new

>> motor can be a challenge. We also saw many failures related to dyno

>> issues, not the motor itself. For example, most dyno running requires

>> using an oil cooler. I've seen debris collect in the cooler and be

>> transfered to the next engine. Always use a new (not just washed) oil

>> cooler for a new engine. Very cheap insurance. Anyway, give me a call

>> and we'll talk.

[unimogjohn]

Still Sunday; here is another exchange of information re the motor, its history, how it was rebuilt. Also there is a discussion about assembly lube.

Greg's message to the engineer:

The engine I rebuilt is a Studebaker 289 R2 (Paxton supercharged) series for my '63 Avanti. I'm putting it together for street transportation, not for racing of any kind. Would like to step into it once in a while, but not often.

Studebaker used high button shoe technology, although the Granatelli brothers (Studebaker's high performance division) did warm them up a bit. Solid lifters, timing gears, etc. It's a 3 9/16 bore x 3 5/8 stroke that is overbored .030. Compression is 9:1. The optional Paxton s/c has the factory option overdrive pulley for a little more boost. Five pounds is standard, so this might give you eight?

Anyway, it is a two hundred thousand mile motor that had cylinder taper but everything else fine. Fresh bearings, new hypereutectic pistons. It was running with the factory optional 288* 56* overlap .400 lift cam with its dual valve springs.

It was running well. I'd taken it out of twenty-five year storage, valve job , gaskets and changed the oil but I didn't gag it knowing it was worn). so I took the cam out, cleaned it, glanced at it and put it back in new cam bearings. I didn't measure the lobes. I also replaced the tappets with new ones.

So the rebuild went on the dyno for break in and then a pull or two. It was started and it ran for about twenty minutes @ 1800/2000 rpm with varying loads.

Cooled overnight, retorqued and then pulled again. No power and struggled for rpm over 4500. Never went over 5100 although the factory red line for stock cam is 6000 and this cam and springs 7000. I knew then that it had broken. (I added this sentence for clarification)

Now it is coming back togther. This time I've turned the crank .010/.010 and another set of bearings are in it.

I appreciate your opinion on the choices I made and you'll probably verify my belief in the 50/50/90 Rule. So I'll ask my questions one at a time.

Today's question: Was it a mistake to use new lifters on a used camshaft? I thought it was thoughtful of me to treat the engine with so many miles to a new set. I know it's been done before. When I approached Delta cam (who does a lot of work for me at my day job) said that some of the "out-sourced" tappets are of a wrong alloy.

And don't forget that I told you I had changed oil and driven the car several thousand miles a few years ago and that I didn't measure the lobes during overhaul. Before we get into modern oils, I'll just say that the 30 wt Pennzoil I used was probably the new formula. I may have begun the destruction of the cam at that time.

Yesterday I hastily measured the valve spring rate on one of the spring assemblies. Subject to closer scrutiny, but the readings I got were 98# valve closed and about 200# with the springs depressed .400 lift. I don't think that is excessive pressure.

I'm interested in learning more about the cam/lifter loading, especially as you say it is higher at idle.

This is the engineer's response:

Greg,

> Without seeing the parts my opinion is you should use new lifters with a

> new cam or used lifters with a used cam. Always coat the cam and lifters

> during assembly, with cam break-in oil or STP. Your breakin speeds sound

> good. Your double valve springs are very hard on a cam. If you don't need

> that much spring, lighten the spring rates. (High spring rates cause cam

> wear.) Did you have any valve seat recession? Were valve tip heights

> within spec? As for oil, you definately need a high zinc oil or oil

> additive. GF-4 formula won't do for the high valvetrain loads you have.

> Use a 30W GF-3 formula (getting hard to find) or use some STP to boost

> your additives.

> Cam loads are high at idle because the cam has to deal with high spring

> loads which decrease as engine rpm goes up. The inertia of the valves and

> springs causes load to go down, which is exactly why a high rpm engine

> (yours is high for a flat tappet motor) uses heavy or multiple valve

> springs, to try to offset the high speed valve/spring inertia. Hope this

> gets our discussion going.

[unimogjohn]

Still Sunday, and this is the final exchange for the day. Learned a lot, and most informative.

Greg's message to the engineer:

Since I will be using another cam, I understand not to mix new/used components. And since the dual springs were part of that cam package, I'll be reverting back to single springs for this road engine.

When I did the valve job, the seats looked very good, just needed touching up.I don't have specs at hand on valve tip height, but doubt they are far from spec.

Upon engine assembly I had used over the counter "assembly lube". The stuff seemed pretty runny. The asssembled engine sat for a couple months before running, so the lube may have left the cam and lifters. In the old days I would mix 50/50 30 wt and STP for assy lube.

Before we go any farther, and don't laugh, tell me about STP. Subject to ridicule, I've been partial to it because it was a Studebaker product.

I understand the new STP Red has some zddp, but read where it isn't enough to hurt a converter.

Thanks, Greg

From the engineer: You are welcome to share this info.

Let's talk about STP and zddp.

First of all, you don't have a convertor to worry about, so zddp is your friend. The zinc in the formula will aid in wear protection. STP is high (thick) viscosity oil with high additive content (zddp). [i'm speaking of the old formula, I haven't seen data on what they did to change it]

For most street engines it is totally unnecessary. Your blend with 30W should be good for assembly. This is basically what assembly lube is (high zinc additive). Your engine needs extra protection. If you go to one valve spring you will provide a good safety margin for your engine. It may cost you some high rpm operation, but it's what I would do.

I tested oil for years and am amazed at how many wife's tales there are about what is best. I'll try to stick to the facts. Modern oils are very good for today's vehicles. As a long time believer in 3000 mile oil changes, my testing proved to me 5000 miles or 1 year is no risk for a daily driver.

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, June 11th. Ah, the lazy days of summer. Things are slowing down in VA, just getting too hot. Even Greg is slowing down a bit. Here are his last two reports from this week.

Wednesday - Trying to get moving on this camshaft fiasco. Called my old buddy this evening. He'd removed the stock cam from his Avanti back in seventy something to replace it with some full race thing. Did he by chance still have the stock cam? Sure did, still on the shelf in the basement.

Drove to his place, we went to the basement, he pulled it down from the shelf and handed it to me. It wasn't from a Studebaker. Oh well. Had a nice visit with an old friend.

Thursday - Not much progress on things. Made some phone calls about the cam issue, as of yet no plan other than I'd sent out the original worn cam lifters to be reground, and they did make it to their Utah destination. The guy is an experienced (old?) cam grinder and I may have him try a special grind devised for supercharged engines.

[unimogjohn]

Just got this from Greg. It is his oil report and discussions with the Ford Senior dyno engineer, now retired. It is interesting stuff.

> John (not me, it is the engineer) Hello again,

>

I once attended a seminar hosted by the late Harold Sharon. He was chief engineer for Pratt and Whitney. One of the subjects that he covered was motor oil for early cars (real early, like pre First War early).

I recall that he had bought a new motorcycle and being the curious type, did some lubrication testing on his own. Evidently the manufacturer called for a light multi weight oil. He drove it a while and then opened it up for a visual. Things were scuffing. I remember him saying that a multi viscosity oil (like 10 / 30) is merely 10 weight oil with plasticizers to thicken it.

Even in the Studebaker, a modern car with oil seals, I have always preferred single weight. (I realize that for summer/winter use there should be different viscosities).

What do you think?

Thanks for taking the time for me. You actually have quite an audience .

GREG

>

>

Greg,

Sorry for the slow reply, I got kinda busy this week too. I usually dismiss oil infomation if I don't know the whole situation. In regard to the guy with the motorcycle that scuffed an engine I would want to know: was the engine properly broken in? did he follow oil change intervals? What additive package was is the oil? (Base stock of oil is important, but the additive package in the oil is equally important.) Last time I offered some thoughts on oil change intervals. There is an issue with low mileage driving. There is an extreme pressure additive in oil that is activated by oil temperature. It usually lasts for a year after it is activated, even if the engine is never started again. Fresh oil looks nice and clean but may be weak on EP additive. Yes, a base stock oil has viscosity enhancers in it to make it multigrade. There is no right answer for everybody. In my '65 Mustang I use multigrade oil because even in winter I start it once in a while, and it takes too long for single grade to flow in our climate.

I 'm enjoying your questions. It's causing me to dig out old oil testing data.

John

>

[Bill Stoneberg]

John,

I have been following this thread with interest.

I am wondering about ou Unimog though, what can you tell s about that ?

[unimogjohn]

Bill, the Unimog is a model 404. Used by most of the NATO European armies in the 60s through the 80s. Over 60,000 were made. They were all powered by a 90 HP gas engine. They have 6 forward and 2 reverse speeds. Has shift on the fly, 2 wheel, 4 wheel, and 4 wheel with lockers. They are rated at 1 and 1/2 tons. They come in many variants; cargo carrier, troop carrier, command box, radio box, ambulance, fuel/repair, and a few were even converted to gun platforms. Top speed is about 55, but really she runs best at 45 or so. MPG is about 12.

You can get a nice restored driver in the US for about $10 to 12K; a fixer is about $5K. Parts are very easy to get from US sources and are not that expensive.

Our DMV classifies the truck as a pick-up, one ton. It is easily licensed for the road. Insurance is about $200 a year.

We have had ours for about ten years, imported it from Belgium directly from the army, and we use it on the farm to haul hay, feed, supplies, etc; and to get is off the mountain when the snow hits 3 feet or so. It is about the only vehicle moving.

Here is a couple of pics.

[unimogjohn]

It is Sunday, June 13th. Greg and John the engineer continue to have a discussion of HD and non HD oils in the prewar cars. Good information that I have not heard before. Here is their latest conversation.

From Greg to John the engineer: Hey John, I hope that you aren't too busy to enjoy the Mustang, and that my stupid questions don't bore you.

As for Mr. Sharon's motorcycle engine, knowing of his qualifications and his understanding and respect for machinery, I'd think he'd been on

top of things.

I came away from his seminar thinking that the lower number of the multi-weight might not have the ability to lubricate well enough in some cases.

Concerning the low mileage driving issue:

I have a newly restored Stoddard-Dayton car. A fifty horsepower ohv four cylinder. I recently changed the oil for the first time. Drained the twelve quarts of ND 30. That's what I put back in it. It is a roller tappet system and I don't think zddp an issue. When asked why I didn't go with HD, I just answered that I didn't really know why, other than a bad previous experience with another car. I did'nt know that it had spent it's entire service life on ND and I used HD. Trailed smoke and empty oil cans until I retired it.

I've been told that HD cleans and suspends contaminants for the oil filter. The oil filter in my Stoddard is a sheet of steel in the oil pan with some holes punched in it with an ice pick. Knowing this car will remain a low mileage piece, cold weather operation not likely, and with annual oil changes.....am I to be scolded for using ND?

I've detoured from the Studebaker because of the early cars I own, all of them have roller tappets except one. My '10 Overland as I recall doesn't have rollers. It uses (get this) square tappets in square bores. No rotating them. As if roller tappets were something new, even the novice engine builders the Wrights used roller tappets starting in Dec 1902.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm enjoying my education.

GREG.

From John the engineer to Greg:

Great questions. Let's get into them.

The detergent in oil (phosphorus, as in zddP) will clean and suspend dirt and combustion by-products. ZDDP is a compound that has both zinc (anti-wear) and phosphorus. It is a package deal. If you use ND oil (non-detergent) you get base stock oil with no additive, no zinc. For any new or newly rebuilt engine you should be using HD (detergent) oil. For an older engine that has run for years on ND oil, the switch to detergent oil (HD) can break loose the accumulated sludge and plug the pick-up screen. Don't switch unless the engine is rebuilt. Do switch with a new (rebuilt) engine. It will add years of life.

A little disclaimer here. I don't have much experience with engines from the 1900 - 1920 time period. Clearances were big, bearings were copper lead or babbit with the ability to imbed metal particles. Modern aluminum bearings are hard and do not imbed, so metal particles can destroy the oil film on bearing surfaces. Modern journals are machined to closer tolerances than older engines. Don't bet the farm on my advice for a pre WWI engine. I've had cars with no oil filter, or a partial system like on my 57 Chevy. Change your oil once a year or every 5000 miles and you should be good.

John

[Guest Road mister]

On the subject of oil changes I have to post some photos of a salvage motor I bought that had some serious sludge. This motor actually ran and was worth saving.

[bhclark]

See! There's proof you don't need to change the oil! Just add as necessary.

We ran many Toyota 20R engines that way in the 80s.....car bodies would rust away before the engines ever gave out.

[unimogjohn]

Wow, now that is a sludge engine, it is a marvel to see how it was able to run.

It is Monday, June 14th. Hit 92 degrees with high humidity yesterday, but Greg was at it. We are still shearing llamas.

This is Greg's Sunday report:

We interrupt the conversation about oil for this special report.

I did a little work on the car. Today I sanded and painted the radiator support. The attached pics are very poor. It actually looks a little better in real life (a dark hangar).

The engine repair is on hold until the cam and lifters are here. The lifters are out for regrinding, supposedly this week. I also want the same firm to regrind the cam and give me explicit instructions , his choice of assembly lube and oil to break them in. This might take a while. The cam grind hasn't yet been decided upon.

This shoots all my plans to the double hockey sticks. Hoped to have most of a car by Fall.

In the meantime, to detour to other issues, I'll have to order parts, etc. I called Phantom Auto Works about the ordered upholstery panels. They have been delayed by their supplier. The quarter windows can't be secured until the quarter panels are in, so that's another holdup.

Maybe there's a Popsicle in the freezer.

Edited June 15, 2010 by unimogjohn (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

More on that slippery issue between the retired Ford dyno engineer and Greg.

From Greg to the engineer:

John,

OK, so what if I dope up the ND oil in the Stoddard with some STP? How do we find out the chemical composition of the new vs old formula? This to see which has the most zddp. Is there any detergent in STP? My engine certainly isn't broken in yet. Would the addition of STP hamper ring seating?

OK, we're off to lunch. Too bad you're not coming along. What

kind of oil do you like on your salad?

GREG.

Reply from John, the engineer:

Greg,

If I were having pasta salad, I suppose Shell oil would be appropriate.

STP old vs. new, I don't know what they did. I'll see if I can find out. The old was basically an oil base stock with heavy additives. It has viscosity improvers to thicken it up, zddp for wear protection and detergents, and rust inhibitors. Here I need to drift off and get into detail.

The change in oil formulas from GF3 to GF4 was to cut the additive package just about in half, at the same time improving the base stock oil considerably. The thinking was that the phosporus in the zddp compound would "plate out" on the front face of the catalyst and delay light off time of the catalyst, thus increasing emissions on the EPA test cycle. I did tons of testing on this and could never confirm it really happens, but the decision was made and here we are.

The plus side is, the improved base stock oil in GF4 formula is very good oil. Now I leave hard data and will guess a little. Did the STP guys reduce zddp for the same reason? I don't know. Stay tuned. In the meantime, there is an oil formula on the market that did not reduce additives, in fact has twice the additive package of the old GF3 formula. It is the oil used in diesel engines.

The high pressures in a diesel engine need wear protection, so they get a big dose of zddp. Remember that '65 Mustang I drive? I mix 4 qts. of 10W30 GF4 oil and 1 qt. of 15W40 diesel engine oil for all the wear protection I need. Give you any ideas?

John

>

[bhclark]

I read today where GF-5 will be required come this October. Further reductions in zinc, sulphur and phosphorus.

Joe Gibbs Driven - Training Center

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday PM, Greg is working late as usual. He has been busy cleaning and scraping. Getting ready for the engine install. He still has lots to work on so he not missing that engine being ready right now. I know that he has the brakes, suspension, and lots of little things to do.

Greg sent along a pic of the redone cross-member and I included another pic of what it looked like a few weeks ago. Quite a difference.

Here is Greg's Monday report:

Spent the evening degunking and painting that removable crossmember. Real glamorous.

Screwdriver

Puttyknife

Wire brush

Paint remover

Garden hose

Air hose with nozzle

Shop rags

Rattle can primer and black

No progress on other issues.

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, June 16th. Greg continues to press ahead on his Avanti. Here is his report from last evening.

Me? Well, I attached the car trailer to the Trailblazer and pulled it out of the pasture. Went over everything and made sure tires had correct pressure and everything was in good shape. Had to replace a couple of running light bulbs. Getting ready to take the 23 to Louisville at the end of the month.

Greg's report: "Looking for something to accomplish, so I spied the new trunk release cable in its box.

Remembering the advice given, hooked a wire to the free end of the old one before it is withdrawn from it's snake like path through deepest darkest Avanti. Did that, got the old one out and the wire through. Hooked the new cable on the wire and fought it through.

When trying to secure the handle end in its place I found that it wouldn't fit. The boss on the mounting flange was too big to fit into the hole in the body. Crap. Take the cable back out and back to the shop for alteration. The boss is a nut that retains the cable to the mounting bracket. Not much material available to remove from the outside diameter. Took what I could safely remove. Reassembled, cable reinstalled, still won't go in the hole. Back to the shop, file some flats on the sides , back to the hangar, still won't go. More trips, more filing. I also noticed that the stem on the repro was much longer than the old one. Cut it down and filed a flat for the handle setscrew. I finally got the cable to fit and seat.

I have the trunk latch soaking in paint remover to lift the carpet glue. Next I'll throw that handle in to get it stripped for fresh white paint.

Moral of the story: The new cable was quite expensive, from the major supplier. Didn't fit, doesn't have a key to keep the handle from rotating, will be prone to rusting solid like the old one should the car live outside like a lot of them did.

If you need one, try T-Bow. I know his is stainless and much cheaper. Don't know how it fits, likely better than this one. Or......get the original one out, soak it in penetrant, clean it up and put it back. Saves a lot of time and swearing."

[unimogjohn]

More on the oil question, in particular zddp and diesel rated oil.

To John, the engineer, from Greg:

OK, since you opened the diesel oil, I've been requested to ask:

1. Why not use straight diesel oil?

2. I understand they are going to devalue the diesel soon. Does that alter your approach to your Mustang oil changes?

Response from John to Greg:

1. Why not straight diesel oil? I'm too cheap, it costs more, and I like the 10W30 weight better.

2. I don't know what the plans are for diesel oil; I'll find out. It would make sense to reduce some of the additives since diesel exhaust aftertreatment is a hot topic these days. They don't use catalysts but thermal reactors, and I'm not sure what the issues are. I'll get a hold of a friend in Texas to help with that one.

I have not reviewed the ZDDP info yet but ZDDP additive packages are a legitimate way to get good engine protection (costly because they have a captive market), but may be the only way to go in the future.

[unimogjohn]

It is Thursday, June 17th. Our Avanti is all washed, cleaned and ready for the Father's Day car show in Warrenton, VA. It is a pleasure now to just turn the key and immediately feel and hear the rumble of the 289 with just a little whine of the supercharger in the background. This is what it is all about.

But, Greg is continuing while waiting for engine parts. Here is his report.

"Finished the cleaning and lubrication of the trunk latch mechanism before returning it to its place in the car, then primed and painted the release handle.

Pictured is the handle, you even see the paint drying."

[unimogjohn]

Friday, June 18th. In my project I have mentioned Shadow, our black lab, and the llamas as helpers. An artist down the way decided she wanted to paint Alice and all of our critters in one scene. I think she has titled it "Saint Alice of the farm" or something like that. The artist is very good, and we have a couple of small things in the house. I have included a pic of one of the paintings. I found out last night that she has a blog and has posted pictures of her progress on the painting. Pretty interesting. Here is her website if you are interested, and then click on the blog heading. The pics are on the first page, and then click on older posts at the bottom to see the llama and the complete picture. You can see how she sketches it out before she starts the painting process. Maybe she will do the Avanti and Alice? Linda Lawler- Artist

And here is Greg's report.

"Trying not to step on any toes here.

I'd ordered some parts earlier this week. First shipment arrived today. Or should I say some if it. I requested bulbs for the instrument panel. Avanti meters are lit in red (aircraft influence), the bulbs are painted red. When you paint them yourself, during the MISERABLE installation process, you scratch them and they don't glow red any more. So I ordered them already coated. Some arrived unbroken. I did have enough to service the dash instruments, so this evening I lay under the dash. Note: No photograph. If I couldn't see what I was doing, why should you.

Also from the same supplier I ordered the long door window runs to replace the old ones. Didn't come. Evidently they are out. Called and was asked to call back Monday to talk to the parts department. Might be out of stock which would require fixturing to prepare more . Sometime. And by the way , the "other place" has them, but rumors are they don't fit. It sure was a joy to restore these cars forty years ago when factory parts were available. Now it is a nightmare.

Also, I've gathered some used camshafts (two R2 and one Golden Hawk), and a set of used R2 springs with dampers and retainers. The camshaft decision will be forthcoming. Then it will be up to that cam grinder, even if it is to just "touch up" the stock cam for me. He's probably packing for that cruise to Alaska right now.

These delays are very frustrating. On a big project like this, it's hard enough to keep up the enthusiasm, even when things go well."

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday, June 20th. We took the Avanti out to a neighborhood farm party last night. Lots of great food, good company, and a great blue/grass band. Fun time on the farm. But I digress, here is Greg's report. He sent a pic of the Avanti work and I am including a pic of his IH.

"No Tango lessons tonight so Friday night spent cleaning the fuel tank of the '14 IHC. Might take the old Cornbinder out this weekend.

As for the Avanti, the rubber gaskets for the vent window came in today. With that project on hold until I can find new window runs, I whittled away the time trimming the flash from the new vent seals using the old ones as patterns.

I also spoke with Delta Cams about renewing my R2 camshaft. They assured me a one day turnaround time.

If I replace the R3 dual valve springs with R2 singles, some adjustment will have to be made. The heads have been counterbored to accept the duals and I'll have to machine some kind of spacers to maintain the placement of the smaller singles.

I guess we'll get into that later."

[unimogjohn]

Still Saturday, but PM. All ready for the car show tomorrow. Greg called in the early afternoon and need some measurements on the metal panel which seals the steering column to the firewall. So I took a couple of pic of mine and sent them off. A while later Greg sent me a some pics of what he had made. It is different from mine as he has a four speed transmission while mine is the automatic. He does great work, and it looks even better than factory. Here are the pics, mine and Gregs.

[30 Hupp]

That's a really nice IHC Greg has! I assume it is "all original"?

( Also, really nice job on the steering column panel!)

Have fun at the car show tomorrow, John!

[unimogjohn]

30 Hubb, yes, she is all original, including the grease on most of the mechanicals. Greg wants to keep her as fresh from the barn as she can be. He is having problems with crud in the gas tank and is working to clear that without disturbing the tank and plumbing.

And, here is what he said about the making of the steering panel for the Avanti.

"Coordinated efforts on the part of Phil and John via phone and email resulted in enough information to fabricate a missing garnish moulding for the steering column.

The moulding was probably the first part to come down the conveyor belt and the car was built around it. Steering column goes through it. Probably missing because the last guy to have the steering column out FORGOT TO PUT IT BACK until after the steering was in the car.

With no spare to be found, I made a replacement out of 20 gauge steel.

Primed and ready for paint."

[unimogjohn]

It is Sunday, PM. Had a great time at the car show. More than 230 cars registered; and lot of folks came to see them all. We had lot of people take a look at the Avanti and come talk to us. The most words I heard was "Look! It is a Studebaker!!!!!! And it is an AVANTI! It is surprising how many people know of the car. Needless to say we were the only Avanti there. There was a 1941 Studebaker there too, but it was powered by a Chev 350. Here are a few pictures of the show. The blue Caddy Convertible won the best of show. And we are a farm community, so Alice had to stop to pet a very hot little pig.

Had an issue coming home. The amp meter went to discharge most of the way home, came back to charge for a minute or so, then went back to discharge. I think I can hear a noise in the newly rebuilt alternator that was not there before. Will have Alice listen tomorrow as it could be just my imagination. Will probably order a regulator from Dave Tbow anyway just in case it is the old regulator.

When we got home had a message that a neighbor's blue Corvette had spun a wheel bearing. I just happened to have the car trailer hooked up so went down and got him, and took them both home. My good deed for the day.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, heading over to see Greg, he said he had a spare regulator and alternator. So will replace the regulator first to see if that is the problem. If it still does not charge then will pull the alternator and take it back to the re-builder. Oh, and I noticed that one of the mounting ears on the alternator is cracked. Does not seem to be an issue with mounting right now.

Also filled up the gas tank last night, it was reading a bit less than 1/4. Put 12 gallons in it. So the gauge reads about 1/4 lower than it actually is. So when it reads empty, I still have about 5 gallons in it. A good safety margin. At least it works. But it is too bad that when you buy something, from a major Studebaker part house, that is suppose to function like the original and be calibrated correctly out of the box, one is a bit disappointed in the vendor.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday still, but PM, June 21st. Ran to Greg's house this AM and picked up the regulators and alternator. Came back home and replaced my regulator with his known good one. No change in the charging, still in the negative. So removed the alternator.

Got to Bill's (the re-builder) about 1:30, he was there, working away. He stopped what he was doing and took the time to put the alternator in the testing fixture, once he got it hooked up and attached the wires to his electrical meters he knew without spinning it that something was wrong. So he tore it apart in about a minute, the strator and its windings looked fine (they were new in the previous rebuild a few months ago) and then tested the rotor itself (the big red hunk of metal in the pic), it had a ground short, the wiring inside it was bad, and to make matters worse the ear on the front broke off, must have had a stress crack so when I removed it, it just fell off, so it is no good. Bill said it is only good now for parts.

Will now go on Bob Johnstone's web site on Avanti and see what I can do for a quick replacement, looks to be a 70s Toyota or Honda alternator. At least the regulator is fine. Here are a couple of pics of the alternator. Will let you know what I decided to do in regards to an alternator.

[unimogjohn]

Well, Greg said I could use his spare until I found something, but I hate to borrow stuff. So until I can fine one I have ordered a 35 amp unit from a 1976 Honda Civic. Suppose to be an exact fit and use the same connections and regulator. $45 to my door. Pics when I get it.

[unimogjohn]

It is Tuesday, June 22nd. Did I say it was hot yesterday, 94 degrees. Going to be more today and lots of humidity. Heading out early to water the animals and put the regulator back in the Avanti. Gives me the chance to clean up that portion of the engine bay.

Here is Greg's report for Monday. Must have been a battle.

"Longest evening!! Accomplishment: two defroster hoses."

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday AM, June 23rd. Got a call last night from our hay farmer down the road, said that he had about 30 bales of hay down in the field, and that had no chance to load them before the storm hit. If I could come in the Unimog before the storm I could have them at half price. So the race was on. 3 PM and storm clouds looming, and 95.4 degrees outside. The things we will do for hay. We rumbled to the field, and Alice drove in first gear (walking low) and I pitched them in. In 30 minutes we were done. Got home, covered up the hay, and jumped into the pool, then the storm came. Close, but we made it.

Here is Greg's report from last night.

"On the Avanti saga: Got a lot going on in an attempt to get things off dead center:

I got the cam sent to be renewed,

Spent a few minutes this evening cleaning the spring dampers and retainers (see pic).

Ordered a new set of springs.

Ordered seals and gaskets for the heater and steering column.

The out of stock vertical window runs are supposedly being formed.

Made contact with the guy who made some carpet sets for us forty years ago Retired but still doing a few favors. Sounds the same over the phone). Asked him about the warranty. The last set was in storage and I need him to fix me up with the two pieces that attach to the inside of the firewall above the toeboards. Said he'll get right on it as soon as my sample arrives his place by UPS.

So, not much to show for the last few days."

[jbbuick22]

John,

With 4 horses, been there done that with hay!!!

Do you want a model Avanti (Crawford museum), in blue?????

Also do still need that speedo cable for the 23??

JB

Buick 22-6-55

[unimogjohn]

John, on the 23, I picked up an inner cable (someone made it), but not the sleeve. I thought the one I had would word, but it would not attach to the back of the speedo itself. Why do things have to be so hard? So am still in need of the cable and sleeve. Thanks for asking. You ready to let loose of your spare?

[unimogjohn]

It is Wednesday, June 24th. I debated if I should continue the oil discussion, but I found this to be interesting, and I could actually understand it. So decided to add it. It is between Greg, Bob and another engineer.

Right now I am running 10-40 weight, conventional detergent oil with a bottle of ZDDP in the Avanti right now. Will probably continue to do so. I know I am burning some oil at start-up probably due to old and leaking valve seals. As long as the engine continues to be healthy I am not going to open her up and start replacing parts.

But here is Greg's note to me. Just a note that I do use Mobile 1 in my 2002 Chev Trailblazer's six cylinder. It has 165,000 on it now and continues to run great, with the exception that it has piston skirt slap, so it sounds like a diesel at start-up. It uses no oil between changes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: FW: Slippery subject.

(To: greg from Bob, the retired Ford Engineer)

Thought you might be interested in the following from an engine guy I know in Minnesota. Tim is a mechanical engineer and speaks with good authority on the subject.

Mobil 1 15W-50

The modern, mainstream Mobil 1 to use.

1200 ppm Phos

1300 ppm Zinc

Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil is the old Mobil 1 20W-50 auto oil

recommended for early Lotus 9XX engines... same stuff, re-labeled for

motorcycles. Motorcycles have not yet been saddled with the reduced ZDDP

mandates. Good stuff, high ZDDP, fully balanced additive package.

1600 ppm Phos

1700 ppm Zinc

Mobil 1 Racing Oil 0W-50

Use as a ZDDP booster for track days. Mix a quart or two of Racing Oil in

with the Mobil 1 street oil of your choice (above). The street additive

package in the remaining quarts of either street oil above will be

sufficient for a normal change interval. If you choose to run straight

Racing Oil, then change the oil frequently... like 3 months / 500 miles.

1750 ppm Phos

1850 ppm Zinc

Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1 Hi-Perf Oil 20W-50

Welcome! Former Kendall Refinery located in Bradford, Pa.

(Brad Penn) - Hi-ZDDP performance motor oil, highly regarded by the

big-block, big-cam, flat tappet hot-rod, drag race crowd. Mail order or

specialty speed shops.

1400 ppm Phos

1500 ppm Zinc

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil (mineral oil)

No more ZDDP than the Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic street oil.

1200 ppm Phos

1300 ppm Zinc

Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil

It's NSL only because it's ZDDP level exceeds API limits.

NSL lacks the street additives needed for extended serice intervals, so

"NSL should be changed every 3 months/ 500 miles" (quote from Valvoline

website). Slightly more ZDDP than Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic street oil,

but less ZDDP than Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (ie, the old Mobil

1 20W-50 street oil).

1300 ppm Phos

1400 ppm Zinc

Redline Red Line Synthetic Oil and Amsoil get high marks, but I don't

have the ZDDP content data handy. Amsoil's XL-7500 is API certified (ZDDP

level within API limits), but the rest of it's oils are not certified since

they contain high ZDDP levels in excess of the API's upper limits. Green

people tend to zing Amsoil, but high performance/ motorsports guys like it.

API SM specifically excludes the high viscosity grades from the reduced ZDDP

requirement. xxW-50 and above can have ZDDP levels that are deemed safe

for flat tappet cams. However, it's "allowed" but not mandated, so there's

no guarantee that all brands of hi-vis oils have high ZDDP. You have to do

your homework.

1200p / 1300z ... Desireable minimum for flat tappet/ big cam engines

1000p / 1100z ... Modern reduced-ZDDP version of "high" ZDDP...

......................... Porsche. Viper. HT/TS applications. Low for us.

~800p / 900z ..... Generic modern, low-vis, "emissions" API SM oils

~600 ppm .......... API SM minimum ZDDP

*~*~*~*

ZDDPlus additive for motor oils.

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More

Redline ZDDP additive for motor oils ("break in" additive)

Red Line Synthetic Oil - Motor Oil for Racing - Engine Oil Break-In Additive

17000 ppm Phos

20500 ppm Zinc

36202 ppm Sulphur

Redline's ZDDP additive -- increases of phos/ zinc content per quart

resulting from using one bottle (16oz.) per the following amounts of oil:

........................ Phos / Zinc

15 quarts ... 610 ppm / 736 ppm

12 quarts ... 763 ppm / 920 ppm

10 quarts ... 915 ppm / 1104 ppm

8 quarts ... 1145 ppm / 1380 ppm

7 quarts ... 1307 ppm / 1577 ppm

6 quarts ... 1525 ppm / 1840 ppm

5 quarts ... 1830 ppm / 2208 ppm

4 quarts ... 2288 ppm / 2760 ppm

1 quart ..... 9160 ppm/ 11040ppm

........................ Phos / Zinc

That's an increase over and above what was already in the oil. Use wisely

since there's such a thing as too much ZDDP. Also, ZDDP is most effective

when used in balance with other additives, such as molybdenum and sulphur.

Wildly adding ZDDP without a complimentry dose of other additives isn't

going to produce the result you're hoping for.

I like the idea of using Mobil 1 Racing Oil 0W-50 as a ZDDP additive for

Mobil 1 15W-50 street oil. It's fully compatible, and the elevated ZDDP

levels in the racing oil is part of a fully balanced additive package.

As usual with any advice, YMMV.

Best regards,

Bob

[unimogjohn]

Still Wednesday, PM; hot again 101 degrees. This hot weather is way too early for Virginia. Usually not like this until August.

Just got a surprise. The FedEx truck rolled in and dropped off the new 35 amp alternator. It is a rebuilt unit by LUCAS. It was initially made by DENSO. I am sure that there is going to be some minor fit issues. I know I have to get a metric bolt for the hold down unless I want to drill and tap for standard. So I think I will head into town tomorrow and get a metric one unless I can find one in my junk jar of bolts. There are two shielded bolts marked with B, I assume the battery connection. Of course you only use one, maybe there are two because of different applications. Otherwise, I hope the installation will go smoothly.

I will be on the lookout for a Prestolite unit to keep the engine bay all original, but this will get and keep the Avanti back up and running.

Here are a couple of pics of the new unit.

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, June 25th. Haying today, put up 136 bales, another 100 bales and we will be done and set for the winter. These small bales are used in the grip of winter when the animals cannot get to the big round bales, so they are our emergency stash. We also have a couple of old llamas that have trouble competing for the big bales so we feed them separately from the rest of the herd.

But I was able to do some fitment with the new alternator. I thought I might have to change out the pulley on the alternator, but it looks to be sized correctly, so will try it as it is. But, the two underside mounting ears on the unit are thicker than the Prestolite unit. These two ears hold the alternator to the engine alternator bracket. As a result, the long 3/8 x 4 inch bolt is not long enough to get a nut on it; I need another half inch. Looked through all my coffee and cookie cans and could find nothing, so it is off to Home Depot tomorrow. I am sure that I am going to have to cut down something to make it fit. May have to make a quick trip to Greg's place and seek his assistance to cut one to size.

On the plus side, I did find a metric bolt for the adjustment ear, so I am good to go. On the Avanti I also have a ground bolt to the alternator. This Denso alternator does not have one, but I was lucky. The four long bolts that hold the two cases and the strator together were threaded all the way through. So I found another smaller metric bolt to fit that hole to ground the case. At least right now I think that it will work if I do not get too crazy and try to tighten the bolt down too hard.

So it was a semi-productive day. Hope to have the alternator in tomorrow.

[unimogjohn]

It is Saturday, June 26th. I need a plan B! I got the longer bolt at Home Depot, and figured I was home free. Well, went to install it only to find out that the rear ear is too thick and is hitting a bolt that holds the supercharger mount. So if thing is going to work I have to have the ear ground down to half it size, and that may be just barely giving me enough clearance to have the alternator mount slide back far enough to get the belt to line up and ride correctly. To make matters worse, I went to put in that metric hold down adjustment bolt in through the bracket and it slipped out of my hand to parts unknown. I will jack up the car tomorrow and see if I can find it. But I am done for the day. I am beat.

Greg offered the use of his spare alternator, maybe plan B is just to take him up on his kind offer.

[unimogjohn]

It is Sunday, June 27th. I posted my need for alternator plight on the Studebaker Turning Wheels forum. I got a reply that the alternator was available new from Spider Marine in southern Florida. So I went to their web site and found the alternator and ordered it. It was on sale too, so $143 including shipping I have a new Prestolite alternator coming.

Hopefully, it will be here when we return from Louisville, KY. We are taking the 23 McLaughlin Buick to the 75th AACA Anniversary show.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, June 28th. Here is Greg's weekend engine report. Finally getting new engine parts from various vendors.

"Pleased to announce a little forward motion. The new R2 valve springs arrived. Spent time today lapping in the valves and seats (again) and assembled the valves, valve springs, dampers , springs, spring retainers, and keepers.

Both heads now ready for reassembly."

[unimogjohn]

It is still Monday, PM. No Alternator! Got a call from the dealer in FL, and they do not have, nor can they get the alternator that they advertise. So, on the hunt again. Found out that Wilson Auto Electric of Canada has them in their catalog. Called the US distributer and of course they said they do not have them, but there are two in Canada. Problem is that I have to be a distributor to order. Have a note into my friends in Canada (who own an auto repair shop) to see if they can get me one of them. Stay tuned.

[unimogjohn]

It is Thursday, July 1st. We made it yesterday to Louisville, KY in 14 hours of drive time. Showing the 23 McLaughlin Buick at our first big AACA meet.

I have friends trying to find me the Avanti alternator in Canada, we will see what they come up with. Suppose to be a few up there, we will see. The chase is still on.

Here is Greg's report from yesterday, and pics too.

Tonight I tried to find something useful to do to the Avanti other than:

Waiting for the carpet.

Waiting for the vent window runs.

Waiting for the camshaft.

Waiting for the lifters.

Waiting for the assembly lube.

Waiting on the gaskets.

So in the meantime I did some detail work.

Cleaned and prepped the hood latches.

Completed the installation and adjustment of the trunk latch.

And.....drumroll please......while rooting through a box of stuff.... found the long lost steering column garnish moulding. I'm pleased that the one I Memorexed is so close. The real one is to be cleaned, primed, painted and installed.

[unimogjohn]

It is Friday, July 2nd. We are having a great time in Louisville. We actually saw an Avanti. All original red interior and with a dark shade of Studebaker gray with a bit of sparkle added to it.

But, here is Greg's report from yesterday.

So here comes the mailman in his little truck. Pulls up to the shop door, hops out with a package. Hurries in, shoves the package at me and says "More Studebaker parts."

I look at the package, look at him and say " With all the things I'm waiting for, all I get is this tiny little box?" "where's the rest of my stuff?" He just grins and says......"It's in the mail." He drove off before I could throw something at him.

The latest:

Window runs arrived. Beginning the disassembly and hopefully reassembly. The job wasn't fun in '72, doubt it will be a day at the beach this time.

The reground lifters may hit town tomorrow.

Camshaft is ground, Parkerized, in the box and ....."It's in the mail."

I've removed the hood cable assembly , gave it a cosmetic makeover. So it's ready to go back in when the carpet is in.

Knocked the rivets from one vent window assembly and started some buffing of stainless.

Happy Furst of July.

[unimogjohn]

It is Monday, July 5th. Made it back from KY late last night. But Greg has been continuing on his quest to complete the Avanti before the fall. Here is his report.

From Greg:

Time today preparing to rebuild the door vent window assemblies. Not a fun job.

The window runs were supplied predrilled. It looks like the guy at the factory had a hard time too. Maybe his were predrilled as they came down the line. You'll see that the holes in the stainless sheath were moved around even before today's work. A lot of time was spent fitting the upper end of the run into the cast frame. Once everything is up tight, a hole must be marked and drilled for a 6-32 screw to secure it.

The sheath has two extra holes, one at the top, one at the bottom. They hold the sheath to the run. The sheath had been buffed before installation. Also, since the supplied runs weren't factory NOS items (reproduction), they weren't the same dimensionally. Since they were more narrow, the sheath was a sloppy fit. I used a carpenter's clamp to squeeze the stainless channel for a better fit. The factory used 1/8 x 1/4" steel rivets. So did I.

Another hard part is getting inside the narrow run to buck the rivets. A lot of time was spent making a setup that I could use in our hydraulic press.

Enclosed photos the result of a day's work, two rivets set.

Why not persevere and get two more done? There's strawberry shortcake waiting on me.