Spitfire8 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Just noticed the 165-degree Sylphon thermostat in the Packard isn't opening the radiator shutters, even after a prolonged warm-up. Coolant level is full. Shutters move freely by hand when disconnected from thermostat.I've never worked on one of these thermostats, so before I remove the unit: Can it be opened? Cleaned? Repaired? Adjusted? Or, once non-functioning, must it be replaced?Any thermo-wisdom appreciated! Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 They are easy to remove, but difficult/impossible to repair. They are available from several of the larger Packard vendors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Shop around. I've seen differences in prices by as much as $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Jim Otto 865-966-9494 can repair thse. About a one week turnaround for about $200. The repo one I had bought, the flange was much larger than the original one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are easy to remove, but difficult/impossible to repair. They are available from several of the larger Packard vendors. </div></div>Tom,Just curious why you say impossible. I had mine done by Jim Otto 865-966-9494 with a one week turnaround last year. The repo did not fit mine 32 because the flange was too large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim Otto 865-966-9494 can repair thse. About a one week turnaround for about $200. The repo one I had bought, the flange was much larger than the original one. </div></div>Dang no wonder why I had a piece of wood holding mine open. How do you all afford this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Get rid of the kids, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You might also consider Steve Babinsky at Automotive Restorations, 1050 Rte 22 West, Lebanon New Jersey 08833, tel 908-236-6400. Not only does he repair them, but he also had a run made of one of those not readily available. Tough man to get on the phone sometimes, try 6-7 PM weekdays in not successful during the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 No Kids here. We are Dinks and Uncle Sam likes us.Back on subject. What year Packard we talking about here?Would this be the same type like for my '31? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I believe we're talking about a 1936 model here. I don't know if it's the same as a '31. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Tom,My parts book shows the 31 is the same as a 32 standard/deluxe eight. I think in 33 they changed them slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim Otto 865-966-9494 can repair thse. About a one week turnaround for about $200. The repo one I had bought, the flange was much larger than the original one. </div></div>Dang no wonder why I had a piece of wood holding mine open. How do you all afford this? </div></div>Because if that piece of wood slips, your in bigger trouble You can also adjust the nuts on the themosta rod which will allow the shutters to stay open all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire8 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Yes, it's a '36. Does anyone have a cut-away drawing they can post or link to, showing the innards of these units?As noted, I have not yet removed the thermostat, and am curious as to what the mechanicals are like; which I'm assuming are housed inside some sort of protective "can" or shell. What part or portion is usually responsible for failure-to-operate?Maybe after outing it, curiosity will necessitate I do a c-section and attempt to repair it myself......or, perhaps good sense will prevail, and I'll let someone else repair it, or I'll just buy a replacement! Cheers, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are easy to remove, but difficult/impossible to repair. They are available from several of the larger Packard vendors. </div></div>Tom,Just curious why you say impossible. I had mine done by Jim Otto 865-966-9494 with a one week turnaround last year. The repo did not fit mine 32 because the flange was too large. </div></div>Not impossible if it is whole, but difficult and when I got a quote for my 34 it was more money than a replacement ($250 versus $95). Mine had developed a leak that allowed coolant to enter. It was the third thermostat for the car in my memory.And, when I say repair, I am coming from the perspective of trying to repair it in your garage . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are easy to remove, but difficult/impossible to repair. They are available from several of the larger Packard vendors. </div></div>Tom,Just curious why you say impossible. I had mine done by Jim Otto 865-966-9494 with a one week turnaround last year. The repo did not fit mine 32 because the flange was too large. </div></div>Not impossible if it is whole, but difficult and when I got a quote for my 34 it was more money than a replacement ($250 versus $95). Mine had developed a leak that allowed coolant to enter. It was the third thermostat for the car in my memory.And, when I say repair, I am coming from the perspective of trying to repair it in your garage . </div></div>My quoted cost for a replacement were not even close to $95. You must know someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Allard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, it's a '36. Does anyone have a cut-away drawing they can post or link to, showing the innards of these units?As noted, I have not yet removed the thermostat, and am curious as to what the mechanicals are like; which I'm assuming are housed inside some sort of protective "can" or shell. What part or portion is usually responsible for failure-to-operate?Maybe after outing it, curiosity will necessitate I do a c-section and attempt to repair it myself......or, perhaps good sense will prevail, and I'll let someone else repair it, or I'll just buy a replacement! Cheers, Bill. </div></div>Bill,I don't think you can repair it yourself if it's similiar mine. On mine there's a bladder filled with some type of gas. At the center of the bladder there's a rod that connects to your shutter linkage. As the gas heats up, it expands outwards driving the rod out. S the gas cools down the bladder and rod retracts. This action opens/closes your shutter. If you have a good one, you can heat one up in a pan of water to see this action. I assume the failure mechanism is a failure of the bladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1928Packard526 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Bill —Lincolns of the late 20's and early 30's along with others I am sure, used the sylphon/shutter approach to controlling engine temperature. "Friartuck" on the Lincoln thread claims they are repairable rather easily. I haven't attempted it myself, but here is one of his posts on the subject:<span style="font-style: italic">These are fairly easy to repair. Perform an air leak-down test using 5-10 pounds of air. If necessary, solder the repair which is usually a crack in the bellows section. When disassembled, use bright light against the suspected section to see the leak area. After soldering together, fill the unit half way (and I mean only half way) with Methyl Alcohol using the "soldered over" fill area in the rear of the unit. You can also replace the soldered fill hole with a machine screw and nylon washer with sealant. Using the machine screw method also makes it easier to perform the leak-down test. Methyl Alcohol is used in some brands of Dry Gas products, so read the labels carefully. I found mine at a local Rite Aid drug store. Do not use Ethyl or Isopropel alcohol. Test the unit in a pot of boiling water before reinstalling.Cost of Solder: $2.50Cost of Dry Gas: $2.99Repairing it yourself: Priceless!</span>You might also contact the man directly as he is quite knowledgeable on many restoration techniques.Pete P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are easy to remove, but difficult/impossible to repair. They are available from several of the larger Packard vendors. </div></div>Tom,Just curious why you say impossible. I had mine done by Jim Otto 865-966-9494 with a one week turnaround last year. The repo did not fit mine 32 because the flange was too large. </div></div>Not impossible if it is whole, but difficult and when I got a quote for my 34 it was more money than a replacement ($250 versus $95). Mine had developed a leak that allowed coolant to enter. It was the third thermostat for the car in my memory.And, when I say repair, I am coming from the perspective of trying to repair it in your garage . </div></div>My quoted cost for a replacement were not even close to $95. You must know someone? This would have been back in 2002, so prices may have risen for replacement parts. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 It has risen, indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 IIRC, the 31 units are quite different than the 34-42 units, don't quite recall when the later unit first came into use, perhaps 33? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPHIL Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Just noticed erratic behavior of my 29 Packard thermostat. Only opens very quickly at 180, rather than gradually . Need some advice as to how to access the thermostat..seems to be hidden within the upper radiator shell.Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 The thermostat linkage is on the front of the radiator. To access you need to remove the shell. You can probably do this without removing the radiator, particularly if you are small and highly dexterous. Before you do that, you might try just squirting a little penetrating oil at the top and bottom of each fin and working them back and forth a bit. It is possible that some rust/dirt/gunga has collected at the swivel points.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPHIL Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Thanks Tom..I will give that a try and report.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPHIL Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 By way of the small plastic spout on the can, I was able to spray wd 40 between the upper shutter attachments and the shell. Seems to have solved the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Trunk Rack Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 REPAIR OR REPLACE SYLPHONThese units fail eventually after a certain number of operatintg cycles. Simple case of metal fatigue. Sure you can fix a crack or pin-hole. But once it starts to get cracks and pin-holes, when will it crack again ?Our Packards gave reliable service when they were in use as transportation. That is, IF properly maintained.Like any well-engineered mechanical device, you need to replace "service" parts - meaning, parts that by their nature WILL fail after a certain period of use.My "collector car" is used at least once every week, often - more often! So far, I have had to replace the Sylphon unit at least three times in the last fifty years - annoying, but acceptable.As a side note, I really dont see the point in the Sylphon system. The auto industry had a version of the modern "pellet" type thermostat as far back as World War One. Why they went to the very-expensive-to-produce "shutter/Sylphon" system beats me. Here's the problem. The hotter you get your motor, the faster you get your moter, the better it is for your motor in several respects. The "pellet" type blocks off the flow of water that would otherwise have to heat the entire radiator, causing the motor to run better quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire8 Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 I finally removed the thermostat. Research indicated this particular style is not being rebuilt, even by those in the business. Replacement with a new unit at a couple-hundred $$$ minimum is the only option.So, I decided to saw the old unit open, to see what made it tick. HOWEVER, just before touching saw-to-metal, I thought: "Are you ABSOLUTELY sure it's not working correctly?"Answer being "no," I placed the thermostat and a candy thermometer into a pail of water and heated the water to 165° with a torch. Guess what? The thermostat shaft extended smoothly!Apparently in the cold weather, even though the temp gauge was up, enough cool air was still passing around the shutters such that the coolant didn't get quite hot enough to open the thermostat. (The shutters work easily by hand with the thermostat disconnected).The chance for a real operational-test will come when the weather warms. And yes, there are a couple important messages in all this.....! Thanks to all who responded. Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 You must have one cool running engine. Even at 50 C weather my shutters open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tcrabtree Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Yes, it's a '36. Does anyone have a cut-away drawing they can post or link to, showing the innards of these units?As noted, I have not yet removed the thermostat, and am curious as to what the mechanicals are like; which I'm assuming are housed inside some sort of protective "can" or shell. What part or portion is usually responsible for failure-to-operate?Maybe after outing it, curiosity will necessitate I do a c-section and attempt to repair it myself......or, perhaps good sense will prevail, and I'll let someone else repair it, or I'll just buy a replacement! Cheers, Bill.I can take a picture of mine that has been out of my radiator for about a year now because I keep thinking I can find someone to repair it. You can see what the inside looks like too since it is out of the can. Let me give you the brief bit of knowledge I do have about it and then you tell me how you got all of these replies because I am obviously using this forum incorrectly because I didn't get any responses when I asked the same question and I have plenty more questions to ask about 1939 Packard 6 coupes. Mine was not easy to get out because the corrosion and the fact that I did not want to tear the radiator up which made it harder because at the time I had no idea what it looked like. The man at the radiator shop, where I had the radiator supposedly cleaned, would not try to get it out after the second screwhead popped off when he attempted to get it out. I got it out after breaking the other heads off and then got a chisel and hammer and tapped around the outside edge of the cover. I didn't damage it any more than somebody who knew what they were doing asit turned out. OK, remember at this point (getting the cover off) I still had no idea what the thing was supposed to look like so I didn't realize that about 2/3rds of the (Sylphon) flange was stuck to the back of the cover because of the corrision and limited knowledge. I cleaned it all up, the inside part and the cup. The inside looks like the ringed portion of any other thermostat. At the bottom of the inside portion which would be against or very close to the bottom inside portion of the cup is a small hole that had a 3/8 to 1/2 inch square piece owhat appeared to be paper gasket material over it. At this point I still didn't know if water was supposed to circulate on the inside of the cup. The inside coiled piece has and still does have about 10 holes on the outside of the coils in the same area and on the same side like it had rubbed on the inside of the cup. The cup has several splits on the sides and as I said the cup flange is in several pieces. As bad as this sounds it should be an easy fix for a brass repair person. It would not be nearly as hard as repairing a brass radiator but I can't find any body that repairs them. I just about fainted when I saw all of these responses to your email. Mine is original with Sylphon and several patent numbers stamped on the bottom of the cup. If I cant find anyone that will repair it at a resonable price then I am going to get the JB Weld to it. The pieces of the flange or lip that aren't connected should not be a problem because it was sandwitched between the outside cap where the opener linkage is mounted and the extrusion on the raidiator and could be JB Welded in place. As far as it not being original if you have seen pictures of the replacements then you know that they barely resemble the original. The only picture I have seen is the one Bill Hirsch has. While looking for a replacement for mine I ran across an industrial HVAC supply site and they had various sized sylphon thermostats used in pipes for HVAC applications but they would never answer my inquiries about measurements. Bill Hirsch has gone up from the 180.00 price listed in thewinter 2009 Packards international magazineto 275.00 on his web site. I was in the process of ordering one when I saw the % he had raised the price and changed my mind as I did with all the nice people who wanted anywhere from 5 to 6 hundred dollars (with Shipping to clean my gas tank and repair the pinholes in the top of it. I stumbled across a galvanizing plant outside of mobile who took care of both problems for me for 100.00 and it is galvanized on the inside and outside. I realize that parts and services are much more expensive for old cars but don't jack them out of site just because it is a Packard. I really do need help because it has been sitting in the garage since two days after I bought it over 2 years ago and it was running when I bought it. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Originally Posted By: tbirdmanJim Otto 865-966-9494 can repair thse. About a one week turnaround for about $200. The repo one I had bought, the flange was much larger than the original one. Dang no wonder why I had a piece of wood holding mine open. How do you all afford this?Granted it's a lot of money for a thermostat but if you only have to replace it every 75 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Granted it's a lot of money for a thermostat but if you only have to replace it every 75 years....Also for future reference, I'm building a database on our club website for suppliers, services etc.$200 is cheap when you can't find a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWS1003 Posted May 6, 2010 Share Posted May 6, 2010 Does someone by chance have a picture and/or diagram with measurements of the link from the thermostat to the shutters - for my 33 Su8. My Sylphon does actually work, but the shutters linkage on top are damaged, stuck, and a prior owner apparently just disconnected and discarded the link. I have the lever that is attached to the thermostat and radiator - I need the link rod that goes from the lever to the shutter mechanism. I can probably measure and figure it out and fabricate one, but why go to all that work if someone has one I can copy?Thanks for all the input and insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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