Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 My Reatta had a severe brake line leak, resulting in rapid loss of fluid, and of course no brakes. Both the red & yellow lights were on. I had a mechanic replace the line, check for leaks, repair a rear caliper & flush the system. Still no braking power and both red & yellow lights illuminated. He's never worked on a Reatta before, but his research suggested a failed accumulator. I purchased, and just today installed the new accumulator as instructed here, but still no change. :-(At the present1. Both red & yellow lights illuminated.2. No known or seen leaks.3. Pump runs continuously when ken in ON position.4. No braking power.Where do I look next with what is known, am I looking at a new ABS Pump Assembly? Thanks in advance for any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest F14CRAZY Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Does the pump sound like its running dry? If it helps, from experience I've found that after replacing an accumulator there will be a bubble of sorts in the system but goes away quickly and bleeding it not required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Hmmm, unfortunately I am not sure what it should sound like when running wet/normally, as opposed to dry. So, are you thinking I need to let it run for a bit? And if so, about how long? Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 The pump runs when the pressure is low, the pressure switch turn OFF the relay that send power to the pump when the pressure reaches approx 2500psi. If the pump is running(1) the pressure is not up to the max(2) this could be because (a) the pump is bad ( the relay is stuck © the pressure switch is bad(3) As noted above, if there is no fluid getting to the pump, then it would not build pressure to turn off the pump.this can easilly be checked by disconnecting the hard line that runs from the pump to the booster (put the end in a bottle as if it is working, lots of fluid will come out)(4) while unlikely, you could have a bad check valve, allowing the fluid to return to the resavoir.Don't let the mechanic discard the old accumulator because it could be ok or at least usable. The accumulator is a part that tends to need replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest F14CRAZY Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 but Barney, to help knowledge...-would a bad relay keep the pump running, with no pressure, and have the red and yellow lights on? From my logic it would seem that if the relay was stuck on, and kept the pump running, the lights would eventually go out but the system would have too much pressure (and the pump would eventually burn out)-and if it were the pressure switch, wouldn't the pump not come on??You understand Teves better than I do Mr. Eaton, I'm just trying to keep my mind sharp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drake Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 When my pressure switch went out, the red brake light was on all of the time. The pump motor continued to run till it burned out. The pressure switch started to leak into the electrical connector. Shorted out the contacts, engaged the brake relay which in turn ran the pump motor continuosly. I unplug the pressure switch connector about twice a year now, and make sure the contacts don't show any sign of brake fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Phil, your not on AIM or else i'd talk to ya on there... On Steph's / My Reatta the pressure switch was essentially "bad" but the pump was running all the time.... so the pressure switch could be bad and the pump still be running..... Is the brake pedal hard or spongy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazytrain2 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 RoadMstr - Were your bakes working fine prior to the line leak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 The pedal is HARD. I purchased the Reatta over a year ago (just now getting to work on it) from a friend who stated the brakes WERE working, but were no longer because of the badly leaking line which caused all the fluid to leak out in near minutes. I appeared to be "pumped" out so could mean the pump was working? I did once fill it with fluid and it appeared to brake properly, but you could only drive it a short time before fluid was GONE. Otherwise, not sure what happened, or if lack of use caused an issue as well.That being said, I have only know the car to have brakes for a few moments, then NO brakes and the RED & YELLOW lights on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Well, a hard brake pedal, means no brake pressure, if you say the pump is running, then for some reason there is no pressure, are you sure there is not another leak in the brake booster assembly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 All that I can see is dry, and nothing is hitting the ground, so if there is a leak its very minor and I should get SOME pressure in the system I would think. Phil was saying previously that maybe there is a bubble/air in the line. I only let the pump run for under 15-20 sec I think. Should I let it run longer as a general rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Let the pump run up to 60 seconds.......It is not uncommon for a (old) unit to take 45 seconds to shut off.It is hard to have hard rules for pump run time and the number of pumps of the brake before the pedal gets hard because of all the variables within the brake system.A working pump could be worn and take longer to pump up the system. Even NEW accumulators may have been setting on the warehouse shelf for years and lost some of their charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 It is also possible the accumulator you purchased is bad. That would account for the pump running a long time to build pressure. Did you buy the accumulator new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I will let it run for at least a minute or so to see what happensAlso, the accumulator is new, just bought it from GMPARTS.COM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I actually think that mine took over a minute with the new accumulator, I would wait about 1.5 - 2 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I let the pump run no less than 5 minutes. NOTHING changed, and for good measure I tapped with a ratchet on various parts to see if something would magically fix itself as a result, but not change there either.I then loosened the single metal brake line that goes into the top of the pump just by the accumulator, and NOTHING, as in NO brake fluid coming out of the line with pump running or not. When I stepped on the brake pedal there was some fluid loss. Point in a certain direction? Quick, cheap and EASY I am hoping <grin> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Could there possibly be something cloging the ports on the bottom of the resovoir where the fluid cannot be flowing easily? It's been a while, but there is a black rubberish line behind the assembly, possibly this came loose form the plastic elbow it is supposed to be connected to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I agree with CL. Other members here have reported a clogged reservoir. It could be your problem as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 How does one UN-clog the reservoir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I had a similar experience with the Steakmobile. First a line burst. Then I noticed a hard pedal and both brake lights on. After repairing the line I could not get rear brakes or any assist. The pump ran continuously. My reservoir was clogged which I repaired but it did not fix the problem. I'm assuming it was the pump. I ended up converting it to a vac system. I would get a hold of a known good pump/motor/accummulator assembly and swap it out if I were you (if the other recommendations don't work). Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The resevoir has a filter in the bottom which is NOT replaceable. The only solution short of replacing the resevoir is.......... Remove the resevoir...you need to unplug the gravity feed line at the back of the pump. Have something ready to plug it if it actually flows fluid. * There is a screw or two on the side that holds the resevoir in place. Carefully pry it straight up... * there are two nipples on the bottom to allow fluid to go into the master cylinder and a return from the booster.* be prepared to catch the fluid.* with the resevoir off the car, you can dump the old fluid.* now you need to somehow backflush the filter.* depending the tools you have, you need to force rubbing alchaol into the flex line, through the filter to unclog it.* you can use water pressure, but then you need to completely dry the filter before installing it back on the car.* you should get cleaned to the point you can blow into the flex line. Ideas I have not tried.... compressed air...start at about 10psi and work your way up. I do not know how well the filter is anchored and there is the possibility you could unseat it out of the bottom....now you have a loose,dirty filter in the resevoir. If that happens, you could put a fuel filter in the flex line and not worry, the old filter won't go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The reservoir filter can be pushed up into the reservoir (where it won't block the flow) with a small screwdriver through the spout below it. First check to see if that's the problem by removing hose from reservoir end (so you don't take the chance of breaking the plastic elbow at the other end). This won't check for a clogged hose (which would be unlikely). I don't know the likelyhood of the filter falling back into it's old spot clogging things up again. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well, looks like I have my work cutout for me here, as I am quite the novice, but will give those things a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I was wondering if you tried letting the pump run for several minutes as recommended above to work out any bubbles. Make sure you try that first before you start disassembling. If that doesn't work you want to check the reservoir flow as described above. If the reservoir has good flow the manual says to look in the reservoir with the key on and look for turbulence. If there isn't any, then the pump is bad. It is easy to replace. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Not to be argumentative but I'm curious as to how the reservoir can have turbulence. Just looking at my system it appears to have two outlets on the bottom that go directly into the master cylinder and another outlet on the bottom with a hose that feeds the pump.The two outlets that connect directly to the master cylinder feed pistons that push fluid toward the calipers and then the fluid returns back to the master cylinder through the same openings. The other outlet has a hose connected to it that feeds a pump that pressurizes the system and then cuts off. Please explain how the fluid can have "turbulence" without a return line for fluid to flow back to the reservoir. I looked into my reservoir with the key on and the only thing I saw was the fluid level going down as the pump filled the accumulator and then the pump cut off. No turbulence.Maybe my pump is going bad. Has anyone else here observed turbulence in the reservoir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I've never seen it either because my pump was bad. The FSM on page 5E1-87, Chart 5E1-75 says to look for visable flow of fluid in the reservoir. No flow means bad pump. Flow means bad master cylinder. I don't know from experience what goes on inside that awful thing. Maybe what they mean by visable flow is the initial fluid level drop which wouldn't even happen if the accumulator was pressurized. A better way to check the pump would be to unhook the pressure line, hold it in a container and turn the key on. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I would try to get the blockage out as explained by others. Do not worry if you break something and render the unit unusable. I know that Jim Finn has some working ones. I caught up to him as he was in my favorite u-pick yard and had grabbed 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Was thinking, if his reservoir was clogged, and the pump had been running all this time, couldnt this mean that the impellers or the motor itself has burned out due to it running dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steakneggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never seen it either because my pump was bad. The FSM on page 5E1-87, Chart 5E1-75 says to look for visable flow of fluid in the reservoir. No flow means bad pump. Flow means bad master cylinder. I don't know from experience what goes on inside that awful thing. Maybe what they mean by visable flow is the initial fluid level drop which wouldn't even happen if the accumulator was pressurized. A better way to check the pump would be to unhook the pressure line, hold it in a container and turn the key on. Steak </div></div>I can agree that looking for "visible flow" is a good way to see if the reservoir is open and the pump is moving any fluid. Holding the pressure line in a container would tell you if the pump as getting any flow from the reservoir but to get an accurate evaluation of the pumps ability to build pressure you would need to check it with a pressure gauge setup as shown below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Doesn't look like a tool that could be reasonably obtained or much use gotten out of. At least it said that accumulator swaps don't require any bleeding. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yes, I let it run for OVER 5 minutes TWICE! Even put back on the old Accumulator and did it again, and no change.<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">UPDA</span>TE:</span>The battery was running low, so I put it on a charge. Just for grins I turned the key while on the charger, and the pump sounded twice as loud, and in about 45 seconds turned itself OFF, and the brakes are more spongy than hard for sure, but when you do step on the pedal, the pump will start each time. This all occurred with the OLD accumulator installed.The Red and Yellow lights STILL illuminated!!!!!So, where am I at now do we think?THX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Put the NEW accumulator back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazytrain2 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CL_Reatta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was thinking, if his reservoir was clogged, and the pump had been running all this time, couldnt this mean that the impellers or the motor itself has burned out due to it running dry. </div></div>An interesting read on ABS pump / motor rebuild http://www.jpurnell.com/RR/repairs/abs_pump.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I was wondering if you ever got around to checking for a clogged reservoir. It sounds like your pump is starved for fluid if it briefly reached a point where it would shut off. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 No I haven't check for any blockage etc yet, since for some reason things have started to work again.This morning when I went to check on the car I found that RED light went off after a couple of seconds and has remained off. The YELLOW light still remains on.Old Accumulator is still installed, as I want to see if it might actually still be good and save the new one for when it fails if possible, but will gladly use the new if it takes care of all the problems that remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Well now that it seems that everything is normal, to an extent, do the break test on reatta.net... will probably find you need an accumulator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RoadmstrNReatta Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Luckily I have a NEW one of those handy <grin> But that wouldn't cause the YELLOW anti-lock light to illuminate would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Whatever was causing the problem could happen again so I wouldn't drive it until you find out what it was and replace or repair it. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CL_Reatta Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yes it would, as the test states (I needed a accumulator when I first got mine, yellow light would sometimes stay on, and come on with brake usage... replace accumulator, all was good..... Do the brake test, it will point you in the right direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I thought I would run this gage idea past all of you.Making a test gage like the factory one is difficult because the ends are metric threads and not everyone has the ability to make them.How about taking a 12" piece of new brake line from the auto parts store (with the flair nuts already installed) Cut it and install a "T", to which you can install the gage. (Tractor supply has a selection of gages) You would remove the hard line that runs from the pump to the booster and form the new line as required. The ends would screw into the ports. I borrowed Ronnie's master cylinder shot... see circles. It might be safer if you purchased two short hard lines with fitting on each end and screw them into a "T" with the brake fitting holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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