What is the correct water jacket cover look for a 1930 eight

[34PackardRoadsta]

Dear All,

In several posts here and elsewhere there have been comments that the water jacket on 1930s era (and other) should be painted. Also, several engines that I have seen personally had painted water jackets.

My 1930 7th series standard eight (320) has a chromed water jacket (see photo). I am fairly certain that it has been taken off, and two of the bolts were replaced (new style bolt head). It was driven by the widow of the original owner until the mid-50s, then owned by a hobbyist for 10 or so years, and then it went to a private museum, where it sat for 30 years. The subsequent owners did nothing to the car.

My question is: did Packard ship any engines with chrome water jackets? Did someone sell an aftermarket chrome water jacket? Is there any reason, besides having something shiny, that you would spend money to chrome a water jacket cover?

Thanks,

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

That cover is one of first parts to be damaged by Rust. Mainly from the inside. So chrome was and still is a good way to prevent that, if it's chromed well on the inside, which is difficult because of the baffel-plate soldered inside the full length of cover. Now days there are good heat/water-resistant Epoxy coatings and paints that can be used, cheaper and easier, to get inside of baffel plate. Cleaning the steel behind baffel is the most difficult part of the process no matter what you use to coat and protect it. They usually need to be unsoldered, cleaned throughly and then soldered back together, which is not too difficult.

So chrome is a good thing but as you say, the outside needs to be painted green to Look original.

BTW- If you find that the baffel-plate has been removed from or rusted away, inside of cover, It Needs to be Replaced, or back cylinders will Overheat.

[Guest simplyconnected]

I might suggest, instead of chrome (for rust prevention), bring it to a plating company and let them copper plate this piece. Copper easily covers steel, even in hard-to-get places; chrome does not. You can easily solder onto copper, too. That's how they fill rust holes, then they copper plate over the whole thing again, and polish it. After a Scotch-Brite scuff, you can paint over the outside.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Thanks for the quick replies! Rick, do you know if Packard ever shipped cars with plated water jacket covers?

Simplyconnected, I wonder if you might not get galvanic corrosion if you just use copper. Although pure coolant (distilled water and ethylene glycol) will not be a great conductor, once some metal dissolves it seems the coolant would be good conductor. If there is any metal-metal contact (say with a bolt that contact both the copper coated jacket and the block) you might get galvanic corrosion. This would be quite rapid if any stray current exists; for example a poorly grounded battery charger that has a small fault that allows leaking of AC current.

Is this possible? It is something we constant have to watch for on boats.

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

No, I'm pretty sure it was not a factory or dealer option anywhere and I don't think any of the coach-builders did it either. And I doubt that was an aftermarket item during the '30s. Mainly Owners just thought it was a good idea after seeing all the rust inside their engine at overhaul time. And of course 'It Added Bling'.

I think you are probably correct about the copper corrosion, since copper is much more conductive than chrome, but it would probably protect it for a long time, depending on how much it's driven.

Two-part Epoxy is probably the best way, since no one will see it inside engine. The type used in Gas-tanks would be a good one to use.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Rick,

Would red Glyptal work? Or should I use the DP-90 epoxy primer? And how should I prepare the chromed surface for painting? Should it be acid etched, or just roughed up with sand paper?

Thanks,

Tom

[Owen_Dyneto]

It's very possible that water jacket side plates were chromed by Packard for exhibition and car show vehicles but were always painted to my knowledge for standard production vehicles. Of course reproduction plates are available in stainless steel, but another course for reconditioning an old plate where the plate itself is sound but the interior baffling is shot is to form new baffles from brass sheet. If you've got a 34 Eight or Super Eight, don't forget the little extra internal baffle that directs the coolant thru the cooler before it continues down the jacket.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 34PackardRoadsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick,

Would red Glyptal work? Or should I use the DP-90 epoxy primer? And how should I prepare the chromed surface for painting? Should it be acid etched, or just roughed up with sand paper?</div></div>

It depends on how rusty the inside of cover and baffel are, as what I would do, but if it has only small rust spots then epoxy-primer will probably be enough. If it's Very rusty then Gas-tank sealer would be better, since it adhears to smooth and rusty parts well, as long as it's not loose rust.

I used primer on the ones in my 626 & 1502 and tank sealer, I had leftover, in the 645. I've not taken them off since then so don't know how they held-up and have not tried anything else. What ever you use, you certainly don't want it flaking off and getting in radiator, so you may want to do a hot water test experiment with it first.

Yes, roughing the chrome surface with sandpaper or scotch-brite pad should be sufficent for good adhesion of epoxy. As long as it's Not Shiny anymore should be 'Good to Go'.

You can use automotive glazing-putty, on outside, to fill in any small scratches and dents.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...What ever you use, you cartainly don't want it flaking off and getting in radiator, so you may want to do a hot water test experiment with it first...</div></div> Glyptol is a dielectric paint. I wouldn't use it inside my cooling system, in case it comes off. As far as galvanic reaction, you need a current path. By the way, where's the galvanic reaction in copper radiators?

The rate at which corrosion takes place is determined by:

• The distance separating the metals on the galvanic series chart (copper and nickle are close, so equal reaction)

• The temperature and concentration of the electrolyte. The higher the temperature, the faster it happens. Any stray electrical currents in the electrolyte will increase the corrosion also.

• The relative size of the metal pieces. A large cross section piece will not be

affected as much as a smaller one. The surrounding edge has a gasket, and if it makes you feel better, put a fiber washer under the bolt heads. I don't believe you will have galvanic reaction on that cover, but you do need to stop rust, be able to solder the baffles in the back, and be able to paint. Chrome is not a friendly metal for your needs, and in my opinion, chrome is a horrible plate for rust proofing. You may get good rust prevention if you plate copper, nickel, and then chrome (but you can't solder to it). I'd do the copper, with paint on the outside only.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Dear All,

I have followed, for the most part, the advice given here for preparing and repairing my water jacket. It is clear it was chromed, as a copper layer was clearly evident under the nickle/chrome.

My only deviations were after sanding the outside, I also etched the inside with muriatic acid and then treated with Metal Ready from POR 15. I then used etching primer on the entire jacket, doing my best to get it inside the baffle (a very quick drying etching primer, mind you)*. I also used body filler to fix a couple of nicks on the exterior of the jacket. Then I applied DPFL epoxy primer to the interior, and Hirsch Packard Green to the exterior. I have posted pictures to show y'all the progress.

I greatly appreciate the help with this large step for me, although a very small step for mankind.

I now have another question. I think I have successfully restored the interior and exterior surfaces of my water jacket. I am now, however, in a quandary. Can I use a modern synthetic instead of the original Eider Down for the jacket insulation. I am concerned, since I hope to finish this in January.

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Tom

*blog entry on this spastic technique coming soon.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Since the very long mounting surfaces are usually not very flat and are uneven, caused by stretching of the metal at holes and warping, it's best to have a thicker softer gasket like cork (original type). If you use something like silicone-sealer it's very obvious that it's not the original type gasket, but it will seal. I don't like to use sealers like that since they can be squeezed inside, where they can come loose and get in radiator. I spray the gaskets with Permatex-Coppercoat, for a better seal, with less pressure.

I thought Eider-Down was Duck feathers (used in pillows), and that cork was only type used there???

If you are not talking about the gasket, but some kind of insulation, I don't what it is, since I've never seen any in the water jacket of any of my cars ???

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Oh, I get it! LOL

There I go, being Too Serious, Again.

For Shame! For Shame!

[34PackardRoadsta]

But, your advice on the gasket was dead on! And that would have been the next question

Cheers,

Tom

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Sounds and looks like you did a great job of covering that ol' Bling-bling Chrome.

[Earl B.]

Rick, don't you have some veeery old geese that Tom can get the correct type of down from for the insulation??? ...B

[tbirdman]

Tom,

You know all of those 44 bolts that hold the water jacket should be painted Packard green and not plain or chrome plated.

[tbirdman]

Tom,

Not sure if I would had done what you did to the inside of the water jacket baffle. It's hard to see in there and you can't be 100% sure everything your pored in there has a good attachment. I would be afraid that some stuff would come loose. I believe you can buy repo water jackets for a 30. I did that for my 32 even though the jacket was in good shape, I didn't want to mess with anything coming loose and clogging the radiator. My .02.

Did you every get the steering wheel off?

[Dave Mitchell]

Don't forget the copper washers on the bolts, and seal the threads of the bolts too. No synthetics for a Packard, remember the wool that they used came from sheep who never got dirty and the leather from cattle in Texas where they had no fences to scar them up, so it has to be the Eider.

[34PackardRoadsta]

Ken,

I will do a boil test before I put it together. The DPLF primer is remarkably tough stuff, so hopefully it won't come off. I am more worried about corrosion 15 years down the line than that stuff peeling. I also only have 40 bolt heads to paint . My jacket is apparently a medium

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the washers. I forgot that bit. Now about those sheep...

Tom

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Mitchell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't forget the copper washers on the bolts, and seal the threads of the bolts too. No synthetics for a Packard, remember the wool that they used came from sheep who never got dirty and the leather from cattle in Texas where they had no fences to scar them up, so it has to be the Eider. </div></div>

Just a note if you are doing concours correct, I don't think the copper washers are correct. I did use thread sealant on mine.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Copper washers under the retainers are certainly correct for 1933 and 1934 and later 320 and 385 ci engines, it's called a annular ring gasket. If in doubt of correctness for your particular engine, just check the parts book, if they were to be used they'd be listed; part number used is 110575 for 33-36 which is very old number indicating that the useage when back a few years.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Copper washers under the retainers are certainly correct for 1933 and 1934 and later 320 and 385 ci engines, it's called a annular ring gasket. If in doubt of correctness for your particular engine, just check the parts book, if they were to be used they'd be listed; part number used is 110575 for 33-36 which is very old number indicating that the useage when back a few years. </div></div>

30-32 models don't call out the copper washer. Must had been an addition done in 33. At least that is what the parts book says.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Glad you got your answer, amazing how many questions can be answered with authority by just looking it up in the parts book.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad you got your answer, amazing how many questions can be answered with authority by just looking it up in the parts book. </div></div>

Actually I used that book quite a bit when I was doing my restoration of the engine compartment. However sometime I wonder if anyone when judging these cars except a 32 Packard owner like me who has taken the time to accurately restore(to the best of my ability) the minute differences like copper washers on a valve cover bolt for a 32 Packard. I guess the the satisfaction is in knowing you did it as close as you can to original.

Question is if someone spots incorrect copper washers, is it 40* points off

[Tom M]

Strike these comments.

[Restorer32]

Copper washers are not specified for the '32 900 water jacket either.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I am leaving mine as bling. Same with the with spark plug wire holder. </div></div>

You can do what you want, Tom, but in my book bling is a negative word. In my opinion, if you want it to look good, leave the bling off. If you want it to look like a dropped Chevy Caprice owner did it, do the bling.

[Tom M]

My bad for choice of words... I know it is not correct but it can be reversed as Tom is doing. The chroming I had done over 10 years ago when I inherited the car. I was young then and not as wise as I am today (I hope) . Maybe when I start getting Old Bessie back together I will change all that extra chroming back to what it should be but for now my main concern is getting some paint on her.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Bling makes my Heart Sing!

Long Live tha Bling! LOL

[Tom M]

Sorry Guys for that. It was not meant to start any thing. Was just trying to liven my spirits up. Since I have been Packardless (?sp) for over 2 years now

[Earl B.]

Tom, you are such a babe in the woods.. only 2 years... we won't even get into how long I've been working on mine...B