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peecher

Oil and ZDDP

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i have followed the discussions on ford barn and msn flathead site on what oil is good for flatheads. most people seems to recommend and use a diesel motor oil with a ci4 or ci4+ rating. i also have read that the diesel oil has a high detergent additive content and high viscosity ratings. the entire issue is very confusing. one article i read said that stp 4 cylinder oil treatment(red bottle) has the required zddp content. this doesnt make sense either because the modern 4 cylinders have catlytic converters. In old cars weekly in august issue there was an article that indicated using the latest motor oil (sm rating) will do irreversible damage to your car. i feel kinda like chicken little when it was announced the sky was falling. david

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I am right in the middle of this, as I am about to fire up a rebuilt V12. I've gone ahead and bit the bullet and ordered some stuff called ZDDPlus that I am going to add to the 30-weight, non-API oil I use. Maybe diesel oil would work, maybe it won't, but I really don't want to take a chance.

And as folks have noted, just because X brand has worked for you in the past, does NOT mean it will work now -- the formulas have changed and they are not backwards-compatible. I have already started to pick up noise in my '66 Mustang's valve train, which I think may be due in part to the lack of zinc in current oils.

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GEE, HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF MILES DO U DRIVE ON THIS ANTIQUE CAR TOO BE SOOOOOO WORRIED. MAYBE I AM NAIVE, ARE U THE SAME FOLKS THAT WORRY ABOUT "LEAD "ADDITIVE FOR

ORIGINAL VALVE SEAT WEAR??

I HOPE THE END IS NOT NEAR ...BUT I HAVE NEVER OWNED A CAR THAT USED UNLEADED, I DRIVE THOUSANDS OF MILES IN MY 67 GM AND 40 V-12. NON OF THESE TERRIBLE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED..AM I LUCKY OR ARE WE OVERREACTING.

I READ FORD BARN TOO, NOW I SEE TWOTZ HAS A PAGE DEDICATED TO ZDPP......

USE 15-40 COMMERCIAL DIESEL TYPE OIL..SEEMS TO DO THE JOB...

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The point is the lack of ZDDP can ruin a rebuilt engine's camshaft within a *few hundred* miles. I intend to put at least those many miles on it. wink.gif

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Here is something that I wrote on this subject a while back:

While I am no longer in the Lincoln business I have read a few articles on this in Hot Rod Magazine for one and had some experience as with Air Emissions and Diesel engines in the last few years. OK, here goes, this is my personal opinion. The engines being manufactured today have closer tolerances due to all of the computer systems used for machining versus what was produced years ago. Hot Rod Magazine mentioned a while back that the oils now being used have less or different additives in them due to the tighter emissions laws for vehicles. Thus you have tighter clearances on the flat cam tappets or lifters and the cams versus what was produced years ago. Probably an earlier engine is going to or may chew the lobes on the cam due to oil design and looser tolerances. The oils today with the additives are less forgiving due to possibly being thinner or less lubricant due to the deletion of the additives. A flat lifter/cam is going to have a higher coefficient of static friction (engineering term) versus a roller lifter or tappet/cam. One question that I have is have the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) standards for oil changed in the last few years.

Hot Rod Magazine in two different articles has mentioned using the Shell Rotella oil for engines. This is the diesel engine oil. My thinking is that the reason for using the oil is that there are more lubricant additives in the oil versus regular gasoline engine/type oil. Diesel engines on road and off road have higher emission limits for NOX and other things versus gasoline engines and have had for years, thus they can still put things in the additives for oil. They have lowered the emission limits for new diesel engines on and off road and this may change over the next few years.

In the October 2006 issue of Hot Rod Magazine they have rebuilt a " Junk Yard Jewel " Pontiac 400 engine and use the Shell Rotella oil. There is an earlier article on the cams and oil but I have thrown out the article.

Anyway, Shell has the oil available at www.rotella.com in grades 15w-40 and 10w-30. That's my two cents worth of thought on this subject. Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,

Mims

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Remind me again, how much ZDDP was in motor oil when these engines were designed? how about valve spring pressure as compared to modern engines? the cam profiles are so gentle, and the spring pressures are so low, If you properly break in your cam with the correct break-in lube, then run today's oil and change it frequently just like we all do, you will not have failures due to the lack of ZDDP. If you want ZDDP for insurance, Hughes racing makes an oil additive that will bring the level of additives including ZDDP up to the pre-2006 (SG and earlier rated) levels, or you can add 1/2 qt of ATF and run one grade heavier oil.

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Guest imported_V12Bill

You do not need ZDDP as insurance, you NEED ZDDP in the oil of any engine that has a flatcam follower. Newer engines all have roller tappet followers and thus do not have the flat service to service scraping. Engine manufacturers requested the removal of Zinc so as to promote life of the catalytic converters from 80,000 miles to 120,000 miles.Unfortunately our engines need the zinc. We are not the least bit concerned about cat converters.

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I SECOND HIS QUESTION FROM LAST POST.........HOW MUCH ZDDP

WAS IN THE FORD OIL INTSALLED 10 1 MILLION V-8S WHEN BUILT??

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Evidently it's been an additive for over 70 years, so yes, our beloved V12s had it since new.

Regarding all the naysayers, as someone who's about ready to break-in an engine with a brand new camshaft, there are two possible "bad" outcomes that I'm faced with:

1) I use the ZDDP additive and it's not needed, at which point I'm out $8 and have to live with the taunting of some folks on this site.

2) I don't use the ZDDP additive and it *is* needed, at which point I'm out a rebuilt engine and all the current scoffers suddenly clam up.

So if you want to put *your* engine on the line, that's your business. I've already made up my mind. wink.gif

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If I was running a newly assembled engine, with a hot-rod steep profile cam, and 200+lb valve springs, I'd be concerned. After inital break-in, (with GM EOS, Hughes extreme pressure additive, ZDDP or equivalent) I would not be in the least bit concerned about cam wear from lowered ZDDP. Today's oil is 1000% better than the oils available in the 30s, keep it changed and add the ptfe or ZDDP additives if it makes you feel better. Cecil, if your 6 popper mustang is getting a little rattle, it's more likely from valve recession or sticky lifters than cam wear. Most sources I've read about the big flap over ZDDP are concerned about break-in and extreme situations, like hotrods with 10:1 compression and up, lumpy cams, huge valve spring pressures, pretty much all the things we don't have with our flatties. The cheapest way to get enough ZDDP is to add about 1/2 qt. of ATF at each change. It is one of the friction modifiers added to ATF in large amounts and ATF is not reformulated to get rid of it.

Who is going to cash in on this by designing roller tappets for a flathead?

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I hope you're right, Mike. I wouldn't be bothered at all if, in the end, this issue is somewhat overblown (but just to be safe in the meantime ...). Hell, before anyone worries about roller tappets how about an electronic ignition system for those of us too lazy to change points?

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being new here I see has its advantages,, I'm not going to get all worked up about it but like the man says $8 vs engine rebuild... As a new to linc 12 I myself have been wondering about such small things as lead additive.. Question is oil additive recommened zddp avaiable NAPA, Advance stores? I used suggest 30 - 40 weight on oil change as suggested to me on forum.. But it seems to me any extra protection is worth considering..given value and scarce parts

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