LINC400

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msmazcol</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys sure aren't showing any remorse for either side. Shame on you. One piece of fire fighting equipment is out of service. Pick your one favorite car from your collection and imagine it's gone in an instant. Even if that might be a beater by someone else's standards it was still your favorite. What's up? </div></div> I agree. My antique car was totaled 2 years ago, and I didn't find it very humorous. Arguing with the insurance company was not fun either.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rocketraider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Linc, you'd do better to cut it off at 1965 since the muscle era didn't really get off the ground till 1966 or so. You will rarely see a 1964 or 65 442 even at big all-Olds shows. A 1960 cutoff date eliminates some of the most interesting and adventurous cars Oldsmobile ever made- including the very technologically advanced for its time Jetfire, the first production turbocharged American car. Then again you rarely if ever see a Jetfire or 61-63 F85/Cutlass even at the OCA Nationals. </div></div> It isn't my show, and they aren't my rules, but I do agree with them. How would you like to show up with your Hupmobile only to be told, park with the spectators, there is no room for your car because the GTO club showed up and took over half the field. Besides if the Jetfire and F85 don't even show up at Olds nationals, I doubt that there is a pile of them waiting to get into the orphan show here. There is no problem with post 1960 cars that are not Olds, Pontiac and Plymouth. How many post 1960 other orphans are there? A few AMC's, DeSotos, Deloreans, and Studebakers. Certainly not enough to threaten taking over the field like with Olds, Pontiac, and Plymouth. None of those were low production divisions in 1960's and 1970's.

While I agree that Oldsmobile is an orphan, I still like the way it is handled around here. Nothing newer than 1960 for Olds, Plymouth and eventually Pontiac. Every cruise night I go to has tons of 442's, Cutlasses, GTO's, Barracudas, Roadrunners, etc. I have nothing against those cars, but when I go to an orphan show, I want to see the cars that you don't see at cruise nights. Nash, Hudson, Packard, Kaiser. They enacted that rule becuase they had a limited amount of space and didn't want 20 Cutlasses while they had to turn away the one Kaiser, Pierce Arrow, and Hupmobile that showed up because there was no room for them. As someone said in another thread, soon the orphan shows won't look much different than the regular car shows they way everything keeps getting dropped.

My car was purchased on Ebay because many trips to many car shows and sales did not have anything I wanted. Also, I have bought parts on Ebay because most swap meets have tons of Chevy and Ford parts, but zero Lincoln parts. I have also never been to Hershey since it is not conveniently loacated. However, I do not see Ebay replacing events like Hershey. In the winter I can be on Ebay all I want. In the summer, I want to go out and enjoy the weather, see actual cars, not pictures online, and socialize with other car guys. That is something Ebay cannot do.

OK so it is not antique yet, but I have a 1994 Buick Regal 2 door with console. The plastic wood and clear plastic with shift letters on the console are cracked and falling apart. There was one in the junkyard with the shift knob ripped off. So I was able to easily remove the plastic parts I needed. However, the shift knob on my car is in perfect shape and is leather wrapped. I cannot slide the parts over the leather wrapped knob. Can this knob be removed without destroying the leather wrap?

For orphan car shows around here, the company or division has to be out of business for 10 years, and the car has to be 25 years old or older. For Olds and Plymouth, cars newer than 1960 cannot be shown. They did this to keep out the muscle cars. Otherwise the field would be overrun with them, and there would be no room for more worthy orphans such as Kaiser, Pierce Arrow and Packard. I assume the same will apply for Pontiac.

I can believe dealers not discounting the Challenger. Selling them for $5000 over sticker in CA is a little harder to believe. My mom wanted to buy a Camaro in 2006 when she bought her Monte Carlo SS. I have no idea why it took so long to get both the Challenger and the Camaro to market. Especially the Challenger. Chrysler seemed to get from concept to showroom a lot faster with other cars that shared less with current platforms. As I said, both of those would have sold a lot better a 2-3 years ago. Now she has been laid off and won't be buying either. She isn't the only one not buying a car in this economy. It would be nice to see convertible versions of both in a year or two. So far, I haven't even seen a concept or sketch on that.

Not once or twice, but about 5 times I have been typing a long post sometimes with facts all researched and typed out, only to hit submit, and be told the topic is locked. So it would be nice to know BEFORE typing all this stuff out that the topic was locked. And again, locking the topic only prevents those that might have something useful to say from being able to contribute. It does not stop those that caused it to be locked from doing the same in other posts. Easier said by us than done by those actually doing the moderating, which we do appreciate. But having it happen yet again today aggravated me enough to make this post about locked topics. The same thing happened when the site went down for maintenence. Read some posts, typed a long reply, hit submit, and was told the site was down. I don't recall seeing anything about that, but I guess I must have missed it. I don't read everything, only the topics of interest to me.

If the Camaro and Challenger were put on sale 2 or 3 years ago, I bet they would have sold quite well, and dealers would even have been trying to charge over sticker price for them. Right now nothing is selling, foreign or domestic. So yes, they will have to keep investing billions to have cars and trucks ready for when the economy picks back up. I'm sure foreign car companies haven't stopped investing in new product designs.

Actually I like the fact that they are not little econoboxes. No offense to anyone that does, but I have no desire to own a small car. The new Camaro and Challenger are basically the same size as their 1969-70 counterparts. Except then they were considered compacts. A Camaro the size of a Mini would not be very intimidating as a muscle car. The new GTO didn't go anywhere. It was smaller. I have seen and sat in both Camaro and Challenger, and my only objection is the lousy rear visibility of both. Something that never gets mentioned in any reviews.

I agree, you do a good job, and I would not want to do it either Wayne. As far as differences of opinion, I see no reason why they can't be discussed civilly. Someone can post "What do you think of the new X and Y?" Some will say X, some will say Y, some will like both, some will like neither. I don't see any problem with that. But if someone comes on and says "You are a jerk for liking X". Then they should be sent a warning, maybe their post deleted, and kicked off if they cannot behave responsibly. Locking the topic isn't fair to those that wanted to contribute something useful. And it won't stop the same people from spouting off again the next time a similar or even not so similar topic comes up. The Big 2 (3) bailout situation has come up several times. No political discussion should be allowed here. However, since it is a government bailout, it is really not possible to discuss it without any politics being mentioned. But it should be kept to a minimum. It should not be a soapbox for someone to shove their political views down everyone else's throat. The bailout situation is a valid topic. Nothing like this has happened before. And people should be allowed to discuss it. On other forums, it gets discussed without topics being locked. So I don't see why people cannot discuss it civilly and responsibly here.

I think that it is really pathetic that a group of people old enough to know better, cannot conduct themselves responsibly enough to have civil discussions on this forum. Several times I have spent time composing a reply without name calling, politics, or other problems, only to find that the post will not be accepted because a topic is locked. If a topic is going to be locked, then it should be announced. As well as when the site goes down for maintenence. Several times I have spent time on replies only to have them deleted when the site goes down. I also think that there is nothing wrong with discussing differences of opinion, as long as it is done civilly.

I like the new Camaro better. It harks back to the old Camaro, yet is not an exact replica. It has a newer, fresher look than the Challenger, which is more of a replica yet much chunkier than the original Challenger. I agree, the Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang are the best things to come out of Detroit or anywhere in years.

It is not a custom bodied service vehicle. The only thing not stock about it is the tailgate. That does not make it a custom bodied vehicle. A service car, is a plain unadorned hearse used for picking up bodies from airports, hospitals, etc. These were used to save wear and tear on the expensive elaborate hearse used for funeral services. The Chevy wagon is definitely not one of those either.

You really can't compare the new and old Camaro and Challenger. As far as styling, the old ones are the originals, and look better. But the new ones are the best thing the auto industry has produced in years. Finally cars that are exciting to look at and make you want to own one. Not just another boring 4 door mid size box or egg. However, the old ones cannot be driven every day. Sure, maybe if you are retired, and live in Florida, you can have an old Camaro or Challenger (or any old car) as your only car. However, I don't think you would want to take a fully restored 1969 Camaro and drive it around every day for a 40 mile round trip commute in 6 months of snow and salt or even summer construction and potholes in Chicago. Your mint Camaro would be in need of a restoration in less than 6 months.

Very interesting Chevy wagon. However, my friend was a past chapter president of the professional Car Society, and I don't see how this would fit in their club. They are for the stock preservation of Limousines, hearses, car-based ambulances, and flower cars. While it may have been purchased by the miltary for use as a flower car, it is not a flower car. A flower car is somewhat similar to a El Camino, only on a commercial Cadillac, Packard, or other chassis usually with a stainless steel fower bed. As far as the bottom of the line price leaders, they are interesting to see at a show if they are stock and not upgraded or hot rodded. But as far as owning one, I want the top of the line deluxe model with all the goodies, not the car that came with nothing. No a/c, radio, and accessories are not fun on a long car trip.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My math tells me you were 4 in 1962, the last of the good years in America. 1963 was the beginning of the downfall, with the assasination of our president and the invasion of the British music. The world now knew we were vulnerable in every way. </div></div> Lets see if this one doesn't get pulled... 1962, when median annual household income in the U.S. was over $15,000 less than it is now (adjusted for inflation). This is a downfall? </div></div> I believe in 1962 most households were a one income household where the wife did not work. So $15,000 additional for 2 incomes doesn't seem like a big improvement. Also I was not around in 1962, but can see the difference between now and then. I collect antiques from the 1930's-1950's. My furniture is all solid wood, made in America. How much wood is in today's furniture? Not much, it is mostly particle board and wood-look paper. How is that an improvement? Women used to shop for groceries in high heels and day dresses. Now they trudge through Walmart in sweats and flip flops. My 1976 Lincoln came in 29 colors with almost as many interior colors. New cars generally come in 6 colors with 2 interior colors. Stores used to have different items. So if you were looking for something, and didn't like what they had in one store, you could find a different one in another store. Now all the stores carry the same item with no choices. Antiques were everyday items that are now prized because of their quality and uniqueness. Now we have ready made "collectibles" that will be worthless years from now because everybody saved their MIB stuff thinking they would make a fortune later. Plenty more differences and I was not even around to see them at the time. And yes we have computers, dvd players, and I-pods now. But they do not make up for what we lost.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is just ridiculous to state that GM would still be making 1976 Fleetwood 75's with 500 cid engines without government intervention. They downsized in 1977 without any input from the government.</div></div> C.A.F.E. standards were first enacted in 1975. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if the Cavalier sold well with only minor updates, what is the problem? </div></div> The same problem Cadillac had with Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/etc. before GM "cloned" them. <span style="text-decoration: underline">The competition</span> (specifically Civic/Corolla/Sentra/etc.) were being thoroughly redesigned and updated every 3-6 years <span style="text-decoration: underline">despite</span> the fact that they also were selling well, selling better in fact by the 1990s in both Cavalier's and Cadillac's cases. You put together a couple-3 decades of doing business like that as compared to your competitors,... what else could you expect? </div></div> And GM had a whole new line up of cars less than 2 years later because it takes absolutely no time to do this. But Ford and Chrysler were exempt until 1979. Yes of course. Toyota is king of the world and can do no wrong. And of course from the 1940's through the 1970's, none of the Big 3 ever changed their cars. The problem with GM was when they offered all nearly identical boxes in the 1980's from Pontiac 6000 to Cadillac DeVille, trying to meet CAFE requirements and make cars like the imports. When they were allowed to build what they wanted, and had their own style instead of trying to clone imports, they did not have problems, and people switching to imports.

I find nothing at swap meets. There just aren't any Lincoln parts there. A few have been found in junkyards, a few on Ebay, and a few through the overpriced few places that specialize in Lincoln parts. Otherwise there aren't any and I have to do without. Fortunately most mechanical parts can be found at auto parts stores.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, with CAFE, everything shrunk until there was no difference between the size, price, and look of a late 1980's to present Buick and Toyota.</div></div> And size is the only measure of difference? (In price and "look" Toyota is much more of a Chevy competitor than a Buick.) <span style="font-weight: bold">I seriously doubt that 10 mpg land yachts are the future of any car company.</span> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People that bought those 1975 Buicks had to drastically reduce the size, passenger room, cargo space, and power of their cars as time went by, or switch to an SUV. If there was no demand for those vehicles, they would not sell.</div></div> They're not. It isn't 2004 any more. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So then what is your point about the foreign cars constantly updating?</div></div> Making a new grille every few years and making a better/more efficient drivetrain whenever possible are different things. Which happened to the Cavalier? Which happened to the Corolla? Which one is providing the incentive to buyers? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I think that American cars not updating often enough is a problem, however, GM has a lot more models to get around to updating than Toyota does.</div></div> Which had a MUCH larger development and engineering staff than Toyota during the intervening period. GM is still the bigger company, BTW. In the 2009 <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span> Auto issue Toyota Motors has 27 models listed (cars & trucks), with 3 Lexus models being uprated clones of Toyota models. All of GM has 37 models listed, virtually every one of which is a clone in several "brands" (counted individually regardless in the total of 37). So which one do you think was really trying during the past few decades? ======================= The proof is in the pudding. Some companies were poorly managed, and are paying for it now. </div></div> It is just ridiculous to state that GM would still be making 1976 Fleetwood 75's with 500 cid engines without government intervention. They downsized in 1977 without any input from the government. However, Americans generally like large vehicles. They might trade in their large car or SUV for a Prius when gas is over $4 a gallon. However, as soon as gas is back to $2 a gallon, they discover they don't like their small car, and large car and truck sales go back up again. It has happened countless times since the 1970's. When the 90's Buick Roadmaster came out, Buick dealers could not believe the amount of 70's and early 80's Buick and Olds that came in on trade. People held on to those cars because they liked them, and wanted a worthy replacement. Not a bland mid-size Japanese clone. As far as change, yes I would like to see vehicles updated. However, there are people that do not like change. The 1980-92 rwd Cadillac stayed in production so long because some did not like the new fwd dinky Cadillac. So if the Cavalier sold well with only minor updates, what is the problem? I would rather see the current Town Car stay the same for the next 10 years rather than see it replaced with a mid-size v-6 boring Lexus clone. In fact the main complaint that Lincoln lovers have with the current Town Car is not that it hasn't been changed, it is because it does not look like a Lincoln. It looks almost the same as the Marquis. I think the biggest mistake the Big 3 have made is making Nissan and Lexus clones, and dropping all the familiar, well-liked names and replacing them with letters and numbers. They just disregarded all their loyal buyers by doing this in the hopes of getting foreign car lovers to buy cars. This will never happen. Also, Toyota and all other foreign manufacturers did not offer larger cars, trucks, and SUV's in the 1970's. Yet now they all do. Why? Because they wanted a part of that lucrative market. Yet now everyone forgets that foreign companies make these and not just Priuses and hybrids.

I think the government is responsible for the current problems in the auto industry. The buyer of a 1975 Buick LeSabre would never look at a Toyota or Honda unless they wanted something completely unlike what they normally bought. However, with CAFE, everything shrunk until there was no difference between the size, price, and look of a late 1980's to present Buick and Toyota. People that bought those 1975 Buicks had to drastically reduce the size, passenger room, cargo space, and power of their cars as time went by, or switch to an SUV. If there was no demand for those vehicles, they would not sell. Also, Dave@Moon, you repeatedly state that the foreign companies regularly update their cars, but then say that the buyer of a 2004 Chrysler would not be looking for another car in 2007 because new cars are kept an average of 17 years. So then what is your point about the foreign cars constantly updating? Personally I think that American cars not updating often enough is a problem, however, GM has a lot more models to get around to updating than Toyota does. Also, I can afford to buy a new car. But I am not going to pay a huge amount of money for a car that is simply unexciting. Gas would have to be $20 a gallon before I bought a Prius. The only cars of interest that I have seen in the last 10 years are the Camaro and Challenger. But I think I'd still be better off using that money towards paying off my mortgage early. While the 2 cars are the best I have seen in years, they are still not exciting enough to get me to buy them.

That would require effort, money, and someone actually knowing what they are doing. Much easier to kill them off and save money.

I can't say that I am surprized. The only surprize is that I thought Buick and GMC truck would be gone first. Much better to drop all the divisions rather than actually giving them interesting product to sell. Who knows what might happen if they did that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barry Wolk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh goody, another on-line car contest! They really shouldn't call it that. It should be called an on-line "Popularity Contest" since, typically the cars have nothing to do with anything. As evidence I present the winner of the NYT contest. Any time you set up a contest where the winner is determined by the number of votes, it's not a true contest, it's simply a matter of how many friends you can convince to vote for you, and against other cars. I wish, just once, someone would set up an on-line car show where knowledgeable judges actually picked the winners, not the public. This type of thing is no better than American Idol. Clearly these contests have more to do with boosting readership than furthering the cause of collectable cars. Just my $ .02. </div></div> I can't believe that thing won. I mean it has no blower, no 22" wheels, no DVD players in the trunk. That is what it takes to win all of the best of show/ people's choice awards I've seen.

That is great, but what about the 23rd guy that no one knew about that needs one? Or the guy that will need one in a year or two? How long were the other 21 guys waiting for someone to come up with this part? Where do they go to get other parts they might need? Bottom line is it is much easier to get parts for a Ford Model T than a 1906 REO. The same as it will be much easier to get parts for a future Challenger or Mustang than a Taurus or Lincoln. Yes, in the distant future someone may or may not come up with parts. I say it is much more likely that parts will be hard to find for Lincolns and Tauruses than that there will be tons of computer geeks or rodders making parts for every need. 33 years after it was built I am still waiting for someone to come up with the computer sensor and armrest I need and have no idea how to go about making. (By the way, can this guy make a mold for an armrest for a Lincoln?) How many other people on this forum are looking for parts they can't find. How is it going to be no problem to add computer parts to the list on top of that?