LINC400

They only command $20,000 or anything remotely near that if they are a special edition with very low miles. In other words, a less than 20,000 mile Collectors Series, Diamond Jubilee, or to a lesser degree, some of the designer editions. These would be fully loaded, flawless cars. Fully loaded does not mean power windows, locks, and a/c. Those are standard. Fully loaded means it includes things like moonroof, digital radio with CB, and built in garage door opener along with about 35 other optional items ,plus all of the accessories that came with the special editions such as tool kits, umbrellas, special hood ornaments, and leather bound owners manuals. Regular low mileage Mark V's in good shape, but with no special features can be bought much cheaper in a variety of colors and trim levels. These are the cars you see on Ebay all the time. For example a yellow one with no moonroof, base interior, and average options isn't going to stir up much interest regardless of low miles. A Collectors Series in immaculate condition with all of its special accessories special ordered in silver or diamond blue with proof that it came that way, is another story.

There were a bunch of Wildcats running around Chicago. All had the padded top, Wildcat emblems, and fender skirts. Don't know what dealership did them, but it had to be more than one judging by the amount that were on the road.

It would have been covered if I had called to increase the value, however, there was no time to do that since it happened less than 24 hours after the car was repaired. I don't call to increase my insurance based on possible estimates raising the value before it is repaired. If the deadbeat that hit me had insurance, I could have gone after the money from him, but he didn't. Anyway, 1948 Lincoln kept going on about how he had thousands of dollars in receipts for his Buick. My point was, you will get whatever value they decide on for the car. It does not matter if you have ten times that much in receipts. The one thing I did learn from this is to get the highest possible agreed value, not just a reasonable value as if the car was being sold, which was what I did with my other one.

I really don't understand why some people have such issues with the word antique. It means a car is a certain age, nothing more, nothing less. For AACA and most states it is 25 years. Some might vary by 5 years either way, but basically 25 years old is an antique. Antique does not mean a car is good or bad, rare or valuable, has high quality materials or cheap plastic, is well built and reliable or a nightmare to repair and keep running, has fantastic technological innovations or is primitively simple, is prewar or what you grew up with. You do not like to have to like all cars that are antiques even. So I really don't see the point in arguing that some cars are "more antique" than others. Is a 95 year old person "more senior citizen" than a 65 year old? Should 65 year olds be redefined as vintage or classic people because they are not as old as a 95 year old senior citizen? And I don't see the point in reinventing new definitions for the word to exclude cars you don't like. I don't like 1985 Cadillac DeVilles. I think they are a pale comparison to any pre 1985 DeVille, and an example of what sent GM on a downward spiral. However, this year they are an antique. So I am not going to argue that they are not worthy of the term antique because I don't like them, and I remember when they were new and didn't like them then either. This year, they hit the number 25, and so they are antiques. Regardless of my or anyone else's opinion of them. Antique is a term that indicates age, pure and simple.

In many of the Chicago suburbs in inclement weather, if there are no fatalities, serious injuries, and the cars can be driven away from the accident scene, the police won't even come out to the scene of the accident. If you call the police, they tell you to come in to the station to fill out a report. Some refuse to even come out on sunny 80 degree days. Yet I passed 5 cops sitting doing nothing with radar guns sticking out the window on the way to work this morning. One even looked like he was asleep.

It depends on what car A and car B are. I'd rather be in a 1976 Fleetwood than a new econobox with bags, crumple zones, etc. in an accident. However, I'd rather be in a new econobox than a 1976 Chevette or 1930's Ford.

Initially it was a good idea, and saved a lot of money. Share bodies and some unseen components to save money. It worked for many decades, but then they got carried away. Look at a 1976 Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Cutlass and Regal. Basically the same body, but with enough different sheetmetal that each was immediately recognizeable. And they all had engines from their own division. Trim levels were better as you went up the hierarchy as well. The same with a '76 Deville, Electra, and Olds 98. Compare that to the 1980's when a different grill, tailights, and dashboard was basically all that seperated the divisions. Same engines, same body, not much difference in interiors and appointments. Bean counters had decided that if a little sharing was good, lots was better. But this was a mistake. The public would accept some sharing, but too much and it becomes a joke, such as 1957 Packards, Lincoln Versailles, or Cadillac Cimarron. The public wants to feel that when they are spending the extra money for a Buick or Oldsmobile, they were getting something more in return. They did not feel like they were with Chevy engines in everything, and the only difference being horizontal and verticle grill bars and square or rectangular taillights. They felt like they were getting taken. This lost GM a lot of loyal customers. It is too bad that it took them so long to realize this error. Somehow Ford always managed to pull off Ford and Mercury with not much difference between the cars. But they put more effort into making the Lincolns different.

My car was rear ended by an idiot with no insurance, 100% his fault. I have Hagerty, and they paid the full agreed value amount, but would not give a dime extra for the $1200 in repairs it had less than 24 hours prior. In fact, it was being driven home from the repair place when it was hit. I also put in $50 worth of premium less than 5 minutes before it was hit. The idiot that hit me was on welfare living in a section 8 apartment with his grandmother. I called lawyers, and they said you will never get any additional money from them. Bleeding a turnip. I kept the car, but had to pay $600 salvage value.

I can tell you that you will not get back your $2K in receipts. I had my Mark V in for $1200 in repairs less than 24 hours before it was totaled, and I could not collect for it. And that was with an agreed value policy.

It is just a general observation. I have seen countless posts on the forum where someone posts a link to a 1960's Continental with comments about how ridiculous the price is. It is usually under $10,000. It might be overpriced, but I would not consider that worth a post about it. The 1976 Mark IV Cartier I found was ridiculous at $76,000 or the Diamond Jubilee and Collectors Series sold as a pair for $124,000. But I hardly think $10,000 for a $7,000 car is worth mentioning. I suggested a couple of times having reproductions made of the 1970's Mark armrests. I asked if anyone would be interested in buying them if I had them made. A few people said they would be if they were in the $50 price range, most others said they would just live with the cracks (they all crack). Used ones at Lincoln Land go for $200-$300 apiece, so really, $50 they are willing to pay?? Someone PM'ed me and said Corvette owners will pay whatever it takes to get repro parts made, but Lincoln owners don't want to spend the money. I might just dismiss that except I can get more repro parts for a 1956 Packard, 1976 Cadillac or 1973 Buick like my friend's. Hardly anything is available for a 1976 Lincoln. I have been around the Cadillac club many times. The members all think their cars are worth more than they usually are. And they will have bid wars if a special car comes up. Anytime a Lincoln is for sale, the comment is "these aren't worth that".

No fins, not enough chrome, no two-tone paint jobs. These are the things that everybody thinks of with cars from the 1950's. While that is the reason their owners and some others like them, they are lacking the flash and glitz people want when buying a car from the 1950's. No production convertible. Convertibles are always desireable, and when prices go high, the coupes follow as a more affordable alternative. But there is no convertible to draw attention in the first place with a Mark II. Due to their $10,000 purchase price, not many people owned or knew anyone that owned one. So there is no nostalgia effect. People buy what they remember or wanted from their childhood or high school years. Most people don't even know what a Mark II is. Even on this post, I don't think one person mentioned that it is not a Lincoln, it is a Continental. Judging by what I have seen locally, the Cadillac Club members are much more willing to part with cash to get a rare Cadillac or excellent example of a particular one. Lincoln Club members seem to just always want deals and dirt cheap prices. So if the Lincoln Club won't pay premium prices for rare or excellent examples, who else is going to? Plus these cars were hot collectibles in the late 1970's early '80's. So many were saved. But then that fizzled. And there are more left than there is current demand for them.

I agree. I generally read up on cars I am interested in. I also like to own something to my own taste, preferably something that is off the beaten path whether it is a car, antiques, or just music that is not what is always heard for a particular decade. You find a lot of things that are just as good or interesting if not better than the popular stuff. For example, there is nothing wrong with a 1957 Chevy, but a 1957 Imperial, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury, Nash, etc. are all a lot more interesting, and you don't see 30 of them at every show or cruise night. Most people are too lazy to look into anything for themselves. They see a car on TV or in a movie, and that is all they know. They think these are the only cars that exsist, or that are of interest. Reading a car book or even researching something on the internet is too much effort. So as a result, they only know whatever is currently popular. And they miss out on a whole lot of interesting stuff.

California might be different. However, in Illinois all antique cars are exempt from emissions provided they have antique plates and are insured as an antique. I have no problems getting any mechanical parts for my car. The only difficulty getting parts is some interior trim pieces. At the cruise nights here we see very few prewar cars, and even the number of 1950's cars is dwindling some. My guess is that the younger people showing up at these events have no personal connection to these cars, and do not collect them. Or maybe they can't afford them. The older people simply don't take their cars out anymore. We have several older members in our club that will attend events, and have several antique cars, yet I have never seen them because they never leave the garage or storage facility.

I disagree with that. The fact that there are so many 1970's cars still around despite the prejudice against them shows that they were not poorly assembled, low quality vehicles ready for the junkyard. What lost customers for the Big 3 was the mid to late 1980's, not the 1970's. My friends and neighbors mostly had full size and personal luxury American cars in the 1970's. They continued buying those types of cars until the mid '80's, when they were no longer available. I remember when the new full size GM's came out in 1985-6. No one liked them. They were too small, unattractive, and didn't look much different from a Chevy Celebrity whether you bought an Olds 88 or Fleetwood. Many refused to trade in their car for the new dinky boxes. The few that did buy them were not happy with them. That is when they switched to Japanese imports, when they were the same size as an Accord or Camry, priced the same, were poorly designed and assembled. The Town Car which was not well received with its 1980 downsize, suddenly experienced a surge in sales in the late 1980's. The Cadillac Brougham and Chevy Caprice, which were supposed to have been discontinued, annoyingly kept selling. The Pontiac Bonneville was even brought back as the Parisienne. The first half of the 1980's are now antiques. But I see very few 1980's cars at car shows and cruise nights. The few that are there are usually modified Mustangs, Camaros, or Firebirds.

I don't think most of the cars used by gangsters would have been purchased.

Isn't that what is done with antique boats?

Yes, I was there in the 1970's. While my interest now is in luxury cars, at the time we owned Fords. We never put any aftermarket parts on our cars and they ran just fine. Neither did any of the neighbors with Pontiacs, Chevys, and Buicks. If you had such lousy experiences with '70's inexpensive Chrysler products, why did you keep buying them? And really, you're going to tell me that a Triumph is more reliable than a 1970's Impala? The Sinatra Imperial is no comparison. Any car with new technology (or new for them) is going to have some problems. On the other hand every high school kid was always at the auto parts store looking for stuff to bolt onto their used Mustangs, Camaros, and Firebirds to increase performance or fix them cheaply. Cragar wheels came about because the guy didn't like the look of stock Mustang hubcaps when the cars were new in 1965. I have seen very few luxury or full size cars with aftermarket stuff installed. The few I have seen were someone's bad idea of customizing that you would not need any originality guide to know to avoid. As for seat covers, that aisle full of plaid bench seat covers was much more likely to end up on 1965 or 1955 Chevys with years of wear and tear, than a new 1975 Impala. And my local K Mart and auto parts stores still carry plenty of them. Except instead of plaid, they have flames, cartoon charaters, or skulls. 52 is not yet retirement age. People frequently start thinking about childhood or young adult memories when they are retiring. That is when my dad bought his first collector car, several years after he retired. Currently clubs and cruise nights I belong to and go to have mostly1960's cars. You don't see many prewar cars there anymore. The prewar trophy usually goes to the only one that shows up, or maybe from a selection of 2 or 3 cars. Our club has already been discussing what to do about it being unfair that a 1960's car has to have a flawless restoration or be immaculately original to win a trophy, while all you have to do is show up with something prewar to get one. As I have already stated, 1970's are now starting to surpass 1960's suicide door Lincolns in the Lincoln club. We are also seeing a lot more 1970's cars at our club and at cruise nights. I would say that in 10-15 years, the 1970's will have the highest amount of cars at these events. If you think there are no aftermarket or reproduction parts for 1980's Camaros and Mustangs, you haven't looked very hard. I don't think there will be a huge demand for 1985 Celicas, but there still isn't for 1957 Packards either.

The reason Mustangs/Camaros/'Cudas need originality guides is because everyone bolted on all kinds of aftermarket crap either for performance or to keep them running cheaply. Nobody is bolting on all kinds of aftermarket crap on Town Cars, Fleetwoods, and Fairmonts. Plus since the majority are kept stock, there are plenty of examples to refer to if you do need to remove some aftermarket part. So I really don't see any reason to make originality guides for these cars. In the early 1960's most manufacturers produced 3-4 different models tops. By the late 1970's, most manufacturers were offering 7 or more different models. So obviously collector interest will be split among the different models, unlike with 1957 Chevys where you had 2 models, full size and Corvette. Falcon, Corvair, and other such clubs were formed because those cars were unlike the regular full size models which got all the attention. But with so many different models in the 1970's, there is really no reason for a seperate club for every model when many models share mechanicals and other aspects, and there are already plenty of existing clubs where those models will be accepted. Most people start buying up their childhood toys, cars, etc. when they hit their 50's and 60's looking to relive their youth. That is when prices skyrocket. People that grew up with 1970's cars have not hit that age yet. Currently in the Lincoln club, the majority of cars in the club are 1960's and 1970's cars. If they haven't already, 1970's cars will soon take over as the most popular decade in the club. A Mark series Lincoln with less than 20,000 miles can command $20,000. Plenty of much more rare 1950's and 1960's cars will not approach that price. 1957 Chevys were collectible early while most other 1950's cars were ignored. That does not mean 1950's Mercurys, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs, and Hudsons were bad, and Chevys were superior to them all. 1960's Lincolns enjoyed a run of being in demand in the late 1970's early 1980's. That eventually fizzled, and they have never regained the popularity they had at that time. The reasons given why 1970's cars will never be collectible, bad gas mileage, bad handling, cheap materials, poor quality, do not apply only to 1970's cars, and it does not apply to all 1970's cars either. They are usually just given by people that simply don't like those cars or by those that have heard the stereotypes, yet have never bothered to actually have any experience with the cars.

I owned a 1978 Continental Mark V for 6 years, a 1979 Mark V for 11 years, and a 1976 Mark IV for 2 years. The Mark V's were used as daily drivers. In all that time I never had any problems getting parts to keep them on the road. The drivetrain is the same in the Town Car. The only difficulty is in getting interior trim parts. 1970's cars are finally first starting to get some respect. But I do not see them taking off in price anytime soon. They were well built and high production, so a lot still exist. Plus they still have a stigma of bad gas mileage and being too big, even though they are really not any worse on gas or bigger than 1960's or some 1950's cars. And if you are driving it as a collector vehicle, gas mileage really isn't an issue. They are a great bargain to get into the old car hobby. Depending on what you buy, Town Car, Fleetwood, New Yorker for example, there isn't much a new car can offer as far as equipment that these cars don't, except for computer stuff. But that means no computer repairs.

#3 is a 1969 Ford Galaxie 500, not a Montego

I think that might be part of the problem. Years ago if you had a Hudson, Studebaker, Packard, Graham, etc. there was no internet or websites. If you wanted info on parts, repairs, general info on your car, the club was your best source of help and info. Now I can find all the info I want on my car on the internet. I can get parts from Ebay or any number of places that have websites or an online ad. There are websites that list everything from production statistics and value guides to general info. And any number of forums that where people can tell me how to repair, get parts, or provide more info all for free. So why pay to join a club? That is why it is important to get people to show up for events. So they can interact with others, show their car off, and have a good time. Things you can't do with internet sites or a newsletter. I also agree that younger generations do not share the interest in cars to the same degree. Cars are simply a way to get to the mall or a party, and a place to plug in your cell phone and I-pod to them.

When I first joined my current club, one of the first events was the Grand Invitational hosted by my region. I had nothing to do with that. But the old members argued massively about it and were burned out by the time it was over. No one wanted to do anything, and no one got along. Our newsletter became a half a page Xerox copy mailed out at erratic intervals with a few sentences describing the one event that occured, a list of future events that we used to do every year with begging for someone to take them over, and a final plea for someone to take over the newsletter. The rare events that did occur resulted in everyone commenting on how great the club used to be. I was new but planned and hosted a few events, and wrote some columns for the newsletter. We got other new members, and they started planning and doing things, and took over the newsletter. We got more members, and they got help from non-club members to set up the email newsletter, and plan even more elaborate events. We now have about a 20 page email newsletter in full color, far more professional than it ever looked. We have one event every month, and frequently 2 or 3 in summer months. Our membership is among the highest it has ever been. And we have to find ways to spend money, because we are a non-profit organization, and can't be making profits. So obviously anyone that has not been on the BCA BOD for the last 30 years cannot possibly have any ideas or experience that might help. Better to just insult them and then wonder why people are not joining.

And your ideas are??? And an attitude like this is supposed to have people rushing to join???

The BCA is not the only car club to address the issues of declining membership or email newsletters. So it is not necessary for someone to belong to the BCA or BOD to come up with ideas or discuss these issues. In fact, if I did not belong to another club, I would not be able to relate the experience of switching from paper to email newsletter because the BCA does not have an email newsletter. Outside opinions can be very helpful. That is why companies hire consultants and focus groups. BOD members asking amongst themselves why people don't want to join because they think it is the best thing and such a great value, is nowhere near as effective as asking people with Buicks or an interest in them why they don't want to join or what might entice them to join. Telling them it is a great value means nothing. People join a club for different reasons. If it does not provide what they are looking for, great newletters, exciting events, help with repairs or finding parts, or just an excuse to get out of the house and away from the wife or whatever is important to them, it is not a great value. Even if it does provide all of the above, and everything they want, it is still not a great value if they cannot stand the people. the only way for an individual to decide if the club is right for them is to join. If people are complaining about the high cost, then a reduced price trial membership seems like a good idea to get people to try the club. An email newletter is a way to reduce costs. Asking how to protect it from being emailed all over is a legitimate question. Insisting or coming up with theories on how a password protected one is going to be hacked into and emailed all over the world is not. People are indeed lazy. It would take me less time to scan and email to 50 different people a copy of the current Bugle, than it takes me to walk from my desk to the copier and back. So considering people are lazy, I highly doubt that anyone is going to come with elaborate schemes for hacking into an email version to distribute it all over for no profit, or to save a $50 membership fee. I did not expect any of the ideas to be instantly implemented. I would expect they would be discussed and decided if they were something worth trying. I did not like seeing good ideas shot down because of wild theories or because people simply don't want anything changed. That is not going to help the club.

NTX, my point is that you can scan and make copies or email the current Bugle all over the place right now if you want. Yes I have a copier that can do that at work. You were stating that it would require multiple high tech machines to be able to do this, and each one would cost thousands of dollars. It would take one machine, ten 10 years old, that cost less than $1000 ten years ago. Or I can use my $99 printer at home, it would take a little longer, but it is a cheap piece of crap. These supposed Bugle pirates would certainly have better equipment than that. What security measures do you have in place for the Bugle now? None. What is to prevent me from just handing a copy of it to anyone I want? Nothing. So is the current Bugle being emailed all over the world? So why is it that an email version protected with a password, is not good enough? You must have Fort Knox-like protection for it? Exactly what is in there that is so valuable that everyone will be stealing copies and emailing it all over the world? Articles on some Buick models, some members stories about their Buicks, parts vendors, classified ads, instructions on repairs, info on upcoming events? Very nice, I'm not insulting the Bugle, but all this information can be had online for free, or from the library for free already. So why would anyone need to be arranging elaborate schemes to hack into and send Bugles all over the place? What is the motivation? I highly doubt that there is a huge black market for Bugles. You keep coming up with paragraph after paragraph why none of the ideas presented by anyone here will work. Actually, I do not see how some of them even relate, such as clearance sales, overstock, bounced checks, and legal liabilities for road ralleys. What do those have to do with email Bugles or reduced price trial memberships? Some of the ideas presented here might work, some might not. But I do not see any ideas from you in any of your posts on how to increase membership or reduce costs. And again, I really don't see anyone asking "How would we go about this if we were to try it?". If you have better ideas, let's hear them.