1965rivgs

Bingo....checked the `63 Buick Service Bulletins and there it was, plain as day. Bulletin #62-53 is titled "425 cubic inch engine- 4600-4700" and states "an optional engine has been released for the 1963 4600 and 4700 Series Buicks" The bulletin is dated Dec 5, 1962. Tom Mooney

Hi Tim, Based on the quotes which I supplied from the SAE paper it is apparent Buick intended early on to offer the 425. The paper was presented in early Jan `63 so it must have been prepared earlier, perhaps much earlier. The EVENT date is Jan `63 but the paper may have been prepared much earlier. In regard to the actual availability of the 425 one could research wholesale order forms which are usually dated. However, I dont know how often the forms were printed. I`ll check the service bulletins but I dont recall any references to 425 availability. Best thing to do is start documenting actual cars....Tim, I elect you!! This weekend I`m wrestling with problems with the little woman`s ESV...these things are all junks....I hate `em!! Tom Mooney

The most likely explanation is that a trim weight vinyl was on the seat covers in the standard interior and an expanded vinyl was used in the custom trim. This is, without a doubt, the case for the `65 models but I would not make that statement for the `64`s without cutting up a few original seat covers. Trim weight vinyl is very thin and best used on door and side panels. Expanded vinyl is bonded to a very thin layer of foam, almost like the vinyl and foam are "whipped" together to a certain degree. Expanded vinyl has a much thicker, luxurious feel to it and holds a stitch much better. The expanded vinyl used in the `65 Custom trim is of a VERY high quality. It is not uncommon to see these interiors with excess of 100K and still looking GREAT! The pleats in the standard trim interiors are usually coming apart at 60K, even in a very well kept car. The quality in most premade seat covers and typical re-upholstery jobs does not compare to the original materials. They are only original once!!! Tom Mooney

Tim, Ed, Darwin and Jim, In regard to Buick`s decision to offer both the 401 and the 425 motors in the `63... " A comparison of the average cubic feet per ton mile data of several groups of cars indicated our present Buick 401 cubic inch engine would satisfy our performance objectives.......To satisfy the buyer who is highly performance oriented, we have increased the engine bore size by one eighth inch to produce an optional 425 cubic inch engine." The above quotes are taken from a paper submitted by Buick to the Society of Automotive Engineers at Cobo Hall in Detroit on January 14, 1963. So, it would seem the decision to offer both the 401 and 425 was an engineering decision, not marketing. However, Buick clearly marketed the Riviera to appeal to the lady of the household and, as we all know, size really does matter....so in `64 the 425 became standard equipment. Tom Mooney

Vinny, The number that you described on the inside fender is a Buick part number. The fender is a replacement fender. At some point your car was probably involved in an accident and the fender was replaced. Tom Mooney

Dave, I have only found the BS coded trans in the Gran Sport models. I have checked a handful of Super Wildcat only equipped cars and the trans codes are what I would have expected had the cars been Super Kitty equipped or not. Most have a 3:07 posi. Having said that, it must be noted I have never run across a Super Wildcat equipped car with a 3:42 rear gear that wasn`t a Gran Sport. Common sense would dictate that an original buyer, if wanting the Super Wildcat motor and the 3:42 diff, would have simply ordered a Gran Sport. We may never find such an example and, perhaps, Buick never built one. Chances are,decisions associated with such an unusual circumstance would be dictated by who or what was available on the assembly line at that moment....I can see it now...Moe says "Can you believe this idiot ordered the Super Kitty and the 3:42 posi but didn`t order this wreck as a GS? This is b.s.". Curly replies... " Got the trans, Moe, where do I put it?" Wooo, woo, wooo,...woo, woo, woo... Tom Mooney

Hi All, 5G is the `64-`65 Fisher Body code for rear seat belts. There exists a `64 Service Bulletin which lists 5Z but thru research I have determined this code does not apply to the Riviera model. It may be a code for full size, compact or both. This is a perfect example of a point which I have made repeatedly but some are very resistant to. Observation of the CARS should determine what we decide is "correct" and not the period literature. The lit forms a basic guideline, the CARS fill in the details. Dave....5K works for the `65 model. A factory vinyl top is indicated on the Fisher Body plate by a "2" after the paint code. So, if the car in question was built with a factory top the paint code would read "K2". Ed...the code for the rear window fefroster is "L2". I also would take issue with your assumption there were early `64 cars with `63 Fisher plate coding based on the date of the service bulletin you referenced. It is more likely, IN MY OPINION, that the bulletin was issued long after the changes in the Fisher plate coding were instituted on the assembly line. Again, documenting an early `64 with `63 coding would be proof of the pudding.....but I think your assumption is a stretch. Hope I`1m wrong, that would prove to be quite a neat little idiosyncrasy. Darwin...obviously the 5G code does not apply to the `66 and later cars as rear seat belts became standard equipment. Just a bit of trivia...if one ordered a `65 Riv with CUSTOM interior and ordered the factory installed rear seat belts which buckle would the rear belts have? Chrome or painted???? Tom Mooney

Hi Pete, The solenoid wires should be purple. If it`s not the nuetral safety switch look for a two wire plug in the area under the master cylinder. The purple wire should be your ignition sw controlled voltage to the starter solenoid. This connection seems to fail frequently. Good place to test for voltage beyond the neutral safety switch without disassembling the console. Good luck, Tom Mooney

For `64 and `65 the 425 dual quad cam was the same as the single 4 barrel 425 cam. For `66 Buick detuned the single 4 barrel 425 cam but continued to use the `64-`65 dual quad cam in the ultra-rare `66 Super Wildcat option. Tom Mooney

Hi Rock, Chicago area. All the GS stuff is gone but there is much more left on this car than I`d like to see go to the crusher.But go it must....and soon! Easier for you to post what you need rather than my describing what is left! Thanks for the response, Tom Mooney

Still parting `66 Riv. Going to the crusher within 1 week, so if you need something let me know soon! Thanks, Tom Mooney

TTT....this beast will be headed for the crusher soon. Cant believe so few members need something for their `66 Riv ??? Tom Mooney

Hi Bill, Make sure the battery is properly secured and not allowing the positive post to short against sheetmetal when cornering. Tom Mooney

Hi Bob, Your symptoms could be caused by a bad connection anywhere in the starting system. The fact you have good headlights contradicts this somewhat, but cranking the starter takes many more amps than the headlights so a compromised connection may be enough to light the headlights but not good enough to pull the solenoid in to engage the starter motor. Chances are your connections at the battery are good because you have switched batteries. I would check the ground connection at the power steering pump first. Also, check the connections at the junction block on the driver`s fender well. In the same area you will find a two wire connecter, one wire is yellow, the other purple. Be sure this purple wire makes good contact in the connecter as this is your voltage signal from ignition switch to starter solenoid. The connection on the positive starter stud often becomes loose because the cable and the nut get hot from excessive cranking. These heating/cooling cycles tend to loosen the nut/connection and encourage corrosion. Just a few items to look for...you may, indeed, end up replacing the starter but checking for good connections always comes first; it`s much less expensive! Good luck! Tom Mooney ROA #56

Hi BJM...posi is already sold Mike...I wish!! Thanks for the interest gents, Tom Mooney

Parting `66 Riviera GS, 425 V8, some nice die cast chrome, black custom interior, chrome road wheels which are good cores, nice hood, was a running, driving car before dismantling so all mechanical components are OK. Located in Chicago area. Tom Mooney

Parting a `66 Riv GS. Most of the drivetrain is gone (except for a rebuildable 425) but otherwise a nearly complete car. Some nice black custom interior pieces, some very nice die cast, A full set of original `66 chrome wheels which need plating, nice hood, etc... The Boyz and I will be completely dismantling the car so no part is too small. Tom Mooney

Hi All, Took a quick look at the Fisher Body plate data I have gathered on the `63-`65 cars and it appears in `63 and `64 Fisher used a seperate body numbering sequence for the Riviera models. The calender body build dates seems to correspond very closely with body number as it relates to total production for the year. However, this changed for `65... In `65 and later the body numbers were interlaced with other models as it is typical to find a Fisher Body plate number which is well over the total Riviera production number. As an example, I checked one of my `65`s this A.M. The build date is 4th week in June and the body number is 168,000. Fisher Body info changes, sometimes dramatically, from year to year. Any assumptions need to be put to the test by observation of the actual cars. Tom Mooney ROA #56

Just a few more observations... The 4GC carb has a cast iron base. The metal gasket is not necessary as in the aluminum AFB. Also, did Fisher Body use a distinct and seperate number sequence for it`s Riviera bodies? Fisher produced thousands of bodies...is it possible the numbering sequence included Electras, Wildcats, etc making it incorrect to state "the 19,000th body number is the 19,000th Riviera produced in a total of 40,000". Hmmm....I dont have my data at hand for the `63 models and dont have time this A.M. to provide an answer....I`ll leave that up to Jim, Ed and any other `63 owners to inspect their car`s body number, the build date in the upper left hand corner and compare that data with calender/ total production. We should be able to arrive at some reasonable conclusions....should be interesting. Tom Mooney

Hello again Todd, Looked at the Ebay pics. Looks like a nice unmolested car. Hard to tell from the pics but upon first viewing the pics of the quarter panels it appears the paint has more "texture" than I would expect to see on an original paint car. In the pics it looks like enamel. As I stated, hard to tell from pics. You have inspected the car in person and are in a much better position to judge originality. Dont discard the license plate frame in the trunk! That is the original rear and becoming very hard to find. It seems you are in the Chicago area. If the Dynaflow needs attention I have a shop I have full faith in to do that trans successfully. Dont trust just anyone as there are tricks to obtain a leak free job and the Dynaflow is beyond obsolete for most shops/mechanics. I am also in the Chicago area so dont hesitate to drop a dime and give me a ring. There is a maintenance concern in the driveline. The slip joint should be greased. It`s a PIA and shouldn`t be a concern for you at this point. Until you can take the car for a ride and evaluate the condition of the car as a running/driving unit don`t touch the driveline! I wouldn`t bother pulling the dist to prime the oil system. Instead, start by cranking over the engine by hand for at least one full revolution to be sure there is no interference with moving parts. With a fully charged battery, crank the engine over repeatedly (not more than a minute at a time so the starter doesn`t overheat)and attempt to bring about some oil circulation. This method will also enable you to cycle the valvetrain to detect a possible stuck-open valve from the driver`s seat... While cranking listen for a consistent cranking speed which indicates there is compression on all cylinders. If the cranking speed rises rapidly or "flares" at consistent intervals you may have a cylinder which has no compression and therefore is providing no resistance to the starter. I am assuming at this point you have oiled down the cylinders and the rings are seated and not washed clean/dry by extended storage/excess fuel from "mechanical priming". Get `er runnin` and we`ll help `ya from there!! Keep us posted...this is my favorite part of the game!! When the Q-Tip stuff starts, I lose interest... Tom Mooney ROA #56

Hi Todd, Just a few observations... CONSIDERING BUDGET IS A PRIMARY CONCERN...dont do the brakes first! Why concern yourself with stopping a car which doesn`t run yet? First things first...get the engine running. Even just from a temporary fuel container instead of thru the on-car fuel system. If you find the engine needs a complete rebuild you will not have invested, potentially, several thousand dollars in brake and suspension work and be financially "stuck" in a car that would be better left to someone with more/deeper financial resources. Once you are satisfied the condition of the engine justifies proceeding resist the temptation to go for a ride! It is now time to do the brakes, go thru the fuel system and produce a running/driving car. When you are able to use the car consistently for several weeks you will be in a position to make informed judgements as to how to proceed. Is the trans OK? Is the driveline OK? Make a list and target your priorities based on your budget and initial or adjusted goals... Make it go....Make it stop...then start restoring the car`s systems as needed. More later for fear I may be "timing out"...anyone know how to disable that feature? Tom Mooney ROA #56

Great suggestion Gee....I didn`t realize the website info was incomplete. The Fisher Body plate codes were researched by members of the old Riviera club which Evans Claggett started and published in their newsletter. A complete listing of the Fisher Body codes for the `64 models are contained in a `64 Buick Service Bulletin. Wish I could obtain such a list for each individual year for all the Buick assembly plants! Then I could decode the `66 Wildcat plates. Very bizarre, but not all the Fisher locations used the same coding system. We are fortunate the Rivieras were only built at one location for the first generation, Flint. Specific Fisher information is very hard to obtain. For a complete discussion of the relationship between Fisher Body and its corresponding GM assembly plants go to www.camaros.org Click on the CRG Reports tab and scroll down to the first generation assembly process. The assembly process described is for a sub frame and not a full framed automobile, so there are deviations from how our Rivieras were assembled, but the documentary is fascinating for those interested in such things. Talk back at `ya in a week or so after you have digested all the information! Tom Mooney ROA #56

Hi Guys, The codes which appear on the Fisher Body tags for the `63 models are the same as the sales codes which the dealer`s salesperson used to originaly order the car. Therefore, the codes on the window sticker for each option will coincide with the codes which appear on the Fisher Body plate. This changed for the `64 and `65 models. In `64 and `65 Fisher assigned arbitrary codes to each of the options whose installation required their intervention. Not all options required attention by Fisher Body so not all options available on the vehicle would be represented on the body plate. The rear window defroster option would indeed be Fisher`s responsibility as most everything from the firewall back, body wise, belonged to them. The code 3B represents rear defogger and 3T represents rear seat armrest. The cruise and Guidematic options, which require a specific under dash wiring harness, are not represented on the Fisher Body plate because the harness and most everything else in the dash area, like the wood grain wheel, were installed at the Flint factory during final car assembly. The rocker panel moldings are an excellent example of such an optional item. Hope this helps, Tom Mooney ROA #56

Hi Bob, Sorry I did not see your questions sooner, I dont regularly frequent this site. PM sent, Tom Mooney ROA #56

In the July issue of Muscle Car Riview magazine there is a 4 page article on a very nice, original `65 Riv GS. There isn`t much technical info but what is written is accurate. The photos are nice with a dandy two page full car pic. Also in this issue are many other Buick related stories, A bodies, turbo cars, etc...if your into Buick you`ll thoroughly the July issue of Muscle Car Riview magazine. Tom Mooney ROA #56