Owen_Dyneto

My own thoughts on the subject paint a bit darker picture, sorry to say. Gasoline will probably hit $5-6 a gallon pretty soon, and that won't discourage a large segment of the relative newcomers into the hobby who seem to have such financial resources that it isn't an obstacle. The hobby really started, to a very large degree, by people of modest means who saw themselves as temporary caretakers of a piece of automotive history; as time passes there are fewer and fewer people of such an inclination in the hobby, and more of the "I want it because I can afford it", and reluctantly, those who see the cars as a base opportunity to chop and modify to show their creativity or individuality. Now it's their own money and they can do with it as they wish, but I think the "volume classics", like Packard Eight and Super 8 sedans and similar Lincolns and Cadillacs, will not increase in value and probably won't hold their current values, and increasingly become fodder for rodders. Of course another factor, and perhaps a larger factor, is that people tend to gravitate to the cars of their youth and thus ever increasinly smaller percentages of tomorrow's collectors will want the Classic sedans and the like of the 30s and supply will outstrip demand more and more. Of course the high end Classics, Packard 12 victorias, Delahayes, Duesies and the like, will no doubt be an exception because the supply is likely to lag behind demand for many, many years. Personally, I've never looked at my two Packards as investments, I've seen them as something I own for personal enjoyment and the camaradarie and social contacts that result. There aren't too many pleasures in life that increase in value; we should expect perhaps to have to pay for the pleasure our cars give us, as we pay for vacations, cruises, etc. rather than seeing them as a source of future financial gain.

Downshifting a crash box takes LOTS and LOTS of practice, matching engine (transmission input) speed to the speed of the gear your selecting. But to downshift into 1st, which as previously noted is very low, you'd need a lot of engine rpm and still probably have to be under 5 mph, so what's the benefit even if you could do it?

BillP: I bought it from the original owner in 1964 with about 40,000 miles. It was in superb original condition and to this day still shows well (2nd in Touring at a recent CCCA Grand Classic) and still 75% original and unmolested. I've given the car meticulous maintenance over the years, and usually each winter season I pick one or two items to check over. For example, last year I serviced the B-K power brake units, the year before I checked out the generator, starter and distributor, replacing brushes and cleaning. In terms of major work I did some upper end engine service at about 45,000 miles including a valve grind, new rings on expanded pistons, and rod babbitt. At 90,000 I finally went for a full engine rebuild, rebore w/new pistons, mains and rods repoured and well as timing chain, cam follower rollers, new clutch, etc. I did one brake job at about 65,000 miles. The car has been utterly reliable with only one breakdown, broke a rear axle shaft just after coming home from the Centennial in Warren OH in 1999. I've driven many, many bona-fide Classics and this is one of the sweetest to drive, reasonably snappy, agile, terrific brakes, etc. Send me a PM with your email if you want to exchange more info, I always like hearing from others with similar cars. I'll attach a recent photo if I can figure out how.

This has been an interesting thread. Let me add the generator max charging rates for a few years as given in Packard's "Standard Sizes and Adjustments": 6-7-8-9th series 9-11 amps 10-11th series 18 - 20 amps 12th series 24 - 27 amps The rapid popularity of accessories, especially radios, no doubt was a major factor in the increased capacities. The 12th series generator capacity isn't that far removed from the capacity of generators in the 50s. When I see 6-9th series cars with dual Pilot Rays, I just know they're just for show and never drive at night.

My 34 Eight was sold new in Brooklyn, New York and has the 4.69 rear axle, as did the vast majority of closed car Eights. Most of the open bodied style Eights were 4.36 with an occasional 4.07. Ratios for the Super 8 and Twelve were 4.06, 4.41, 4.69 and 5.07. In my opinion based on driving many of these cars, the Super 8s and Twelves more easily accomodate a high speed rear than the Eight; in the latter case you spend a lot of time downshifting on modest grades. Though a bit of a chore and highly non-authentic, an overdrive is a better option on an Eight for a more roadworthy car than a high speed rear. I've owned this car for nearly 45 years and have put close to 50,000 miles on it, but try to avoid Interstates and generally drive no faster than 55 mph, 50 preferred.

Checked an old engine rebuilder's manual from the 50s. On the subject of rebuilding rods, they state that if the elongation of the big end if 0.002 or less, the rods should be resized by milling and then honing the diameter back to standard. If greater than that, the rods should be discarded and replaced.

This has been a pretty interesting exchange on the transmission history. I had always been a bit dubious about the short-lived 4-speed synchro, despite the article on it in PAC many years ago (I'd love to have one in my 34 Eight along with a high speed rear) but am convinced now. Since the Light Eight introduction brochure which was printed well in advance of the actual production specified a 3-speed synchro transmission, I guess the obvious conclusion must be that initial production capacity for the new 3-speed wasn't enough for all the 32 cars and the Eights, Super Eights and perhaps the 12s soldiered on with one of the 2 4-speed units until such time as production caught up to need.

Thanks for the confirmation about the 4-speed synchro in 1932, and that it's synchro on the top 2, not the top 3 as I'd heard. Is you car an early car? As to why the 4 speed was dropped, it's pretty simple, it simply wasn't needed. The "low" was so low as to be unnecessary (as witnessed by most folks not even knowing it was there) and as engine power increased, it became even more unnecessary.

The 4-speed crashbox lasted thru 1931, though as correctly noted previously, low was so low that most folks never knew it was there. The very first few 32 cars (except the Light Eight) also carried over the 4 speed, though the new 3-speed synchro was introduced very early in the 9th series, and remained essentially the same thru 1938 and perhaps 1939 for those cars that didn't have the optional column shift. There are references in several of the Packard tomes to a 4-speed synchro also introduced very early in 1932 and dropped almost as soon as it was introduced. I've not checked the parts book for 32 to confirm that, but have run into one or two persons over the years who claimed to have original early 9th series seniors with a 4 speed with synchro on the top three. I remain a bit unconvinced on this, seeing would be believing (or confirmation from the parts book).

PackardV8, you need to spend more time in a good professional engine rebuilding shop - big ends of rods do elongate and need resizing routinely in major engine rebuilds. Check with any good shop in your area.

Yeah, probably so though I'm suprised that it wasn't covered in the service letters. Another mid-year generator change, in 1934, was covered in service letters. That was a higher output generator and was differentiated by a red (rather than black) label, and if the car was equipped with Startix, it likewise required a new red label startix.

Here's the conflict. Despite an occasional error it's hard to argue with the Packard part manual, which says the 726-733 should have the CD 840 generator with 20100 current regulator. I have no familiarity with them and no internal diagrams to help. Both Chilton's and the Standard Automotive Electrician's Manual says the 726-733 should have the CD 865 with the 20220 regulator which is of the so-called two stage type (cutout plus thermostatic field current control). There appears to be nothing in the Seventh Series Service Letters which I've seen which clarifies this. A few posts above, Speedster has what might be an after-market 2-stage current control such as would be used on the CD-865 up thus 1936 (except for the "120" model. That's about all the help I can be on this, sorry this isn't more.

Sources show that 1930 was a mixed bag on generators, perhaps the conversion to external field control was a running change. And in response to PackardV8, at the time I registered for this forum, primarily to participate in the Packard-related posts, there was an correspondent who seems to relish personal sniping and character assassination, so to avoid becoming a target I chose to use a screen name and just never taken the time to change it. Given my almost 50 year association with the earlier Packard classics, Owen Dyneto seemed a clever one, especially given the amount of time over the years that I've spent inside their starters, generators, and regulators.

Speedster, you inquired about the appearance of what you call the "two relay" regulator and cutout. The cover of the OD 21262 is stamped steel, 2"W x 2-1/4"L x 2"depth, and held on by two slots in the cover on opposite sides at the bottom that accomodate screws in the base. At the base is a knurled brass thumbwheel that encloses and attaches the fuse. Below the base is a curved strap that matches the diameter and screws on the generator. It has two nuts on the underside to connect the armature and field wires, marked A and F. It has two contact tangs sticking out from the cover towards the fender marked "BAT" and "GEN". GEN is not used, just the BAT lead. Originally the cover was painted green with an Owen-Dyneto, Syracuse NY decal in gold, black and red. The NAPA/Echlin VR 755 replacement is extremely similar except the cover is held on by the single nut in the center of the cover, and it only has a single contact tab sticking out, marked BAT. Same arrangement underneath and for the fuse.

Tom, as I've mentioned to you before it was not exactly a secret that NAPA thru Echlin was continuing to make and supply a NORS OD 21262 until just a few months ago, and lot's of savy owners bought them and set them aside, in fact I know some folks who bought several for that purpose. I noted at Hershey last year that Max Merritt had a few in his booth - have you contacted him? How about Henry Yeska who use to repair these units and may have some available.

I guess this unit you have isn't the resistor which is used for the gasoline and temperature gauges, because that item is a true resistor. Guess I should get out my parts book and start browsing but a bit too lazy at this moment.

The OD unit I refer to as "partial control" is a combination of a cutout and a primitive thermostatic field current control, so consider it as a step between a simple cutout and a full feature generator regulator. It's used on 3-brush generators and is quite robust, the one in my 34 has been working for 90,000 miles with never a burp. Yet still, if I anticipate a lot of night driving I still turn up the 3rd brush a bit, and down a bit for all day driving in daylight -- the unit is sophisticated for it's time, but not what we became used to just a few years later.

I gave a fairly long answer to this on another forum where you posted this, but let me just repeat that you should have a professional engine rebuilder who does this for a living every day resize and straighten your rods to get the correct "crush". Too little and the bearing will float or wiggle, get oil behind it inhibiting heat transfer, or worse, the bearing will spin. Too much crush and you'll risk waffling the shell and microcracking the bearing metal both of which will lead to fairly rapid bearing failure. The "crush" is critical!

The "W" clips that hold these lenses, used back quite a few years, are still available. Restoration Specialties perhaps.

Packard's first use of full voltage/current regulators (without 3 brush generators) was the 1935 "120" model, though the senior cars continued with 3-brush generators and the older style Owen Dyneto partial current control thru 1936. There are at least three useful sources of sorting out the various generator and regulator systems, (1) the Packard parts manuals, (2) the Standard Auto Electricians Manual, and (3) Chiltons Tune up Manuals. Some of the information conflicts here and there about the generator number, for example Packard offered a higher output "red label" generator in 1934 which is shown in the Packard parts book but not the other souces. In an attempt to clarify, let me summarize what these sources say: All generators and generator controls are Owen-Dyneto except for the "120" data. 1926 1927 Six, Generator CG678, Control simple cutout 1926 1927 Eight, Generator CE 523, Control simple cutout 1928 Six, Generator CD 777, Control simple cutout 1928 Eight, Generator CL 800, Control simple cutout 1929 Eight, Generator CL 800, Control simple cutout 726-733-740-45,Gen CD840 or CL896, OD 20100 partial control 726-733-740-745, Gen CD865, OD 20200 partial control 826-833-840-845, Gen CL 896, OD 20200 partial control 901-02-03-04, Gen CL 1005, OD 21732 partial control 1001-1002 1003-1004, Gen CO 1130, OD 21262 partial control 1100 thru 1105, Gen CO 1177, OD 21262 partial control some 1100-1105, 1200-thru 1205, Gen CO 1240, OD 21262 1935 120, GAR 4011, Full control TC4302A 1400-thru 02, Gen CO 1300, OD 40210 partial control 1936 "120", GBR 4601, Full control TC4302B Partial current control refers to Owen Dyneto's charge regulator which combines a cutout with a thermostatic field current control, but not full current and voltage control as began with the Autolite equipment on the 1935 "120". Hope this helps.

Tom, please go look at the wiring diagrams. If you don't have them, they are all on the PAC website. Your CO 1177 must have 2 wires coming from the case, as does the CD-895/896, the CL 1005/1033,CD 1130, CO 1240 and CO 1300. If you only have one lead coming from an 1177 generator, the other one has fallen thru inside or broken off. Pull brush cover and check. The CO 1177 (and other earlier and later Packards) used the Owen Dyneto 21262 charge regulator which is a combination relay and primitive regulator. Didn't I email you the service info on this a while back? If not, let me know.

There should of course be NO draw when you hook it up. Sounds like the cutout has the points welded shut. Simple observations should confirm this. If you'd look at the wiring diagram for your car, you'd see the two wires coming from the generator are of different gauges, the larger one is the armature and the smaller one the field.

After reading ProSource's comments, I've got to rethink my earlier response. Remember the Brunn-bodied formals of 1939? - they had small narrow eyebrow windows over the windshield and they were tinted, green as I remember. Don't know if they were safety-laminate or not.

The "tint" that you're seeing is the gradual deterioration (discoloration) of the inner plastic layer. I'm quite confident that there was no tinted glass in Packards until Solex came along in 1951.

Depending on what special work might have been needed like spray-welding a crankshaft and/or camshaft oversize and grinding back to standard, repairing block cracks, sleeving cylinder bores and the like, a top-notch engine job on one of these 8s can easily top $20,000 if you include cosmetics like redoing all the nickel plate under the hood, reporcelainizing the manifolds, and having starters, generators, and waterpumps rebuilt, hardened exhaust valve seats installed etc., and recoring the radiator to cope with the added new engine friction which the old radiator usually can no longer handle. Such prices are not uncommon for top-notch work. That said, the engine in question surely doesn't show that attention to detail, at least externally. Let's hope it's better internally.