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edinmass

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    Thinking of buying my first late 30’s Cad

    in Our Cars & Restoration Projects

    Posted


    I applaud you know what you want. Stick with it.👍👍👍

     

    Cars only need to please the owner. Now that we established you really prefer town cars, it makes arguments for and against easier. Things like location (cost of shipping), flying out to look at it (Do not buy a car without seeing it yourself), budget constraints, and condition expectations. Now all of those permutations only really apply to you. Don’t want to hammer on the car, but in my opinion 45 is too steep. PM me if you would like to have a private conversation.

    • Like 1

    Need Eisemann magneto help

    in Dodge & Dodge Brothers

    Posted

    Eisemann units are made of pot metal and known to be nearly impossible to restore if they were kept in less than optimal conditions. I would run a Bosch unit, tough as nails, not expensive, and easy to service and source parts. You need to know direction of rotation,  pad height to shaft, and length of coupler. Getting the drive set up will be more work and money than finding a mag. Here is what you need. 

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    Geo.n.Pierce & Co Refrigerator... Searching for answers

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

    Well as the largest collector of Pierce ice box’s is in the world, I can tell you what you want to know.


     

    PM sent through the forum. (Personal message look at the top of the page to see it.)

     

     

    I can date you ice box, what year was your house built?

     

     

    Do not restore it or modify it. You will ruin 90 percent of its value. Use it as a bar, I use mine as a gun box.

     

    • Like 2

    Thinking of buying my first late 30’s Cad

    in Our Cars & Restoration Projects

    Posted · Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

    38 minutes ago, StylishOne said:

    The question is what it’s worth as she sits ? 


    The 64 dollar question. It’s not what this car is worth, it’s what can you buy with the identical amount of money. The choices are much more prolific than they have been for the last 30 years. Pick a number.......25k, 35k, 50k, 60k.........doesn’t matter what the number is, it’s the other turn key choices you have for the same dollar amount, or the number this car is plus the time, effort, and money to get this car into a driver in the condition you can live with. 
     

    Look at the car below, 27 k at RM recently, for a fantastic coupe. Get in it and go. So, now value the town car.....it isn’t easy.

     

     

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    • Like 1

    1936 Packard Twelve Speedster 904080 Mecum Monterey 2016

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Maybe we can end the conversation with the auction listing.......will make your head spin......we have proof it's real, and a fake. Fortunately  everyone is dead who can relate it in first person. Look at the auction venue........Why not RM? Gooding? See the description below......

     

     

    MAIN ATTRACTIONS

    • Color
      Black
    •  
    • VIN/Serial
      904080
     

    HIGHLIGHTS

    • According to America's Packard Museum, the coachwork on this car was designed and executed by the Dutch Darrin in Paris
    • Restored by Harold Sliger with assistance from Dutch Darrin in the 1970s
    • Featured in a 1988 issue of the AACA newsletter that displayed a certificate of authenticity and a list of unique components identified by Dutch Darrin
    • The published letter of authentication states: I (Dutch Darrin) would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger's, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Speedster as being one of my creations.
    • Recently restored by Fran Roxas with 3-years, 7,000 hours and $450,000 invested

    For many years, the provenance of this automobile has been the subject of much research by historians and the curiosity of avid Packard enthusiasts. Differing opinions have been brought forth over several decades about this vehicle’s origins and early history. As the auction house, we will disclose the available information brought to our attention in an effort to provide potential buyers as much information as possible to assist in their decision making process to bid confidently at auction. Please note this 1936 Packard Twelve Gentleman’s Tailback Speedster is being offered by America’s Packard Museum in Dayton, Ohio and the following narrative has been provided by the museum’s historian.

     

    This 1936 Packard Fernandez & Darrin Speedster is one of the most stunning Packards in existence; exquisitely designed, beautifully executed, and perfectly restored. It is a one-off, V-12 Packard sports car, and has recently completed a 3-year, 7,000 hour, restoration, at a cost in excess of $450,000. It is certainly one of the finest Classic Era motor cars, of any marque, ever built. Its jet-black finish is unblemished; its taupe ostrich-leather and Wilton wool interior is flawless; as is its interior and exterior brightwork; its instrumentation all works properly; it runs and drives as new.

    According to America’s Packard Museum, this coachwork was designed and executed by the fabled Howard “Dutch” Darrin in Paris, in 1936, when he was in partnership with J. Fernandez, a wealthy banker and furniture manufacturer. It is one of a group of either five or six speedsters (history is a little vague on this point) which Darrin built on various chassis, including Packard, Duesenberg, Delage, and Buick (and perhaps another) in the 1936/1937 time frame, and shortly before Darrin shut down the Paris operation and returned to Hollywood, California in mid-1937. It is believed that the Buick example exists today and the Delage was spotted on national television with President Jimmy Carter riding in the car.

    These particular speedsters were all produced by using a cache of Auburn Speedster “bodies-in-white” which Darrin had been able to acquire from the financially troubled Auburn Distributor in Paris, as a starting point.

    This example is believed to have been originally commissioned by Parisian playboy Count Armand de La Rochefoucauld, Darrin’s polo-playing pal. Howard Darrin’s passion for polo was shared by La Rochefoucauld, who, though not having Darrin’s skill, was still an aficionado of the sport, and owned many of the ponies ridden by Darrin. It is reported that by early 1937 La Rochefoucauld owned not only a Fernandez & Darrin Town Car, executed on a Hispano-Suiza chassis, but the Packard Twelve Speedster as well.

    This magnificent motor car, like many others, has acquired over the years a “Legend” in which it is claimed that a Mr. Dick Saunders, in upstate New York, built this piece of rolling art, “in his backyard” using a rope, a tree limb, a dis-used Auburn boattail body, and a Packard Twelve chassis and engine. Or maybe it was first on a Marmon chassis, either with or without a Marmon V-16 engine, depending on who is telling which version of the Legend. Or maybe the Packard Twelve was in the Marmon chassis. Or maybe the Marmon V-16 engine was in the Packard chassis.  

    Documentation reveals that Mr. Saunders owned 116 Packards throughout his lifetime. He was one of the forefathers of Packard hot rodding and had created many different custom Packard Speedsters over the years. Mr. Saunders was in inveterate tinkerer, whole loved to play “mix and match” with various engines, chassis and bodies. It is documented that Mr. Saunders owned two or more Packard Speedsters fitted with custom Auburn bodies.

    After Saunders’ death, his boattail was acquired from his estate by a Mr. Harold Sliger, from Illinois. Sliger was smart enough to seek out and find Mr. Darrin, for advice in restoring his car to its original glory. Mr. Darrin agreed to help Sliger, and advise him on what had to be both done and/or undone, or both, to restore the car to its original configuration. Sliger spent many nights on the telephone with Darrin and his son Patrick, consulting on these matters. When his trucking would take him to California, he would personally visit with both of them for the same purposes. Patrick recalls these visits and calls as he participated in them. Patrick recalls that his father told both him and Mr. Sliger that the car was his creation, in Paris.

    As anyone who has ever attempted to address vague assertions and innuendo once they are in circulation knows, it is more difficult to gain a hearing with facts to set the record straight than it is to create doubt and cast aspersions. Nevertheless, the Packard Museum offers the following facts for your consideration to show that the 1936 Packard Twelve could only have been created by a master designer and craftsman of Dutch Darrin’s caliber rather than by an avid customizer whose specialty was mixing and matching parts from various makes and models in an effort to revive the great classics of the 1930s.

    So how do we reconcile the conflicting beliefs and documents held by two parties of good faith in this dispute? We list the undisputed statements of fact from both sides to fully disclose all known information.

     

    Statements of Fact Provided by America’s Packard Museum

    1. The issue of authenticity was addressed and should have been laid to rest as a result of the research conducted by respected automotive historians Ed Blend and Robert Turnquist, with Dutch Darrin when he was still alive, and later published in the in the AACA magazine in Vol 52, No 4 (1988) article by Mr. Blend. 
    2. In that article, and based upon extended interviews with Dutch Darrin himself, and others, Mr. Blend concludes, as follows: “With total restoration/reconstruction completed, it has been proved beyond doubt—Darrin’s number system, plus stamped and cast parts bearing his logo, and his personal attestment as well—that the car is authentic and of true heritage.”
    3. Dutch Darrin wrote a letter of authentication in 1978 that states: “I would like to authenticate the validity, and vicissitude, of Harold Sliger’s, 1936 Packared Twelve: Fernandez & Darrin Boattail Speedster as being one of my creations.”
    4. During one of their interviews, Mr. Darrin provided to Mr. Blend and Mr. Turnquist an extensive listing of particular Packard and Fernandez & Darrin parts and numbers which were among those used in the 1936 Speedster, and were still there.
    5. It is undisputed that Patrick was a part of these discussions and that he witnessed the personally, and that his father, on several occasions either with Sliger or himself, spoke at length about it being “his” car.
    6. If Mr. Darrin had not built this magnificent motor car, in Paris; if, indeed it had been cobbled together in somebody’s back yard in Upstate New York; if Darrin had no previous connection with it; how, then, would he have such a document?  
    7. It is undisputed that Dutch Darrin bought five or six Auburn boattail bodies-in-white from the Paris Auburn Distributor during the throes of the Great Depression. One became a Duesenberg speedster, another a Packard Eight, a Buick, and a Delage. No one seems to know with certainty if a sixth car was purchased by Darrin, or, if so, what became of it.
    8. It is undisputed that the 1936 Twelve Boattail contains features that are Darrin’s own styling cues such as: the stamped or cast “D” for Darrin on door hinges, bumper back bars and clamping devices; evidence of the European method of lead-filled body moldings with nailheads soldered in place in the tailback; several body alternations that would require the use of special sheet metal tooling; reverse bent 90 degree sheet metal that would be impossible to perform by hand and require a coach builder’s genius and tooling to accomplish; and also significantly the Darrin-patented “jiffy top” across the back of the seat
    9. It is undisputed that according to Robert Turnquist, at the time the world’s greatest living Packard authority, and a personal friend of Howard Darrin, Darrin and Turnquist had a lengthy visit in the mid-to-late 1970’s, and covered a number of subjects, including the provenance of this car. Darrin related to Turnquist that when he first saw the LeBaron Twelve Boattail Packard in 1934, he thought it was “quite striking” although “a little bob-tailed in the rear end”. Turnquist remembered Darrin telling him that he hoped, at that time, that someone would commission him to do a Packard Twelve Boattail, “So that I could show LeBaron how it should have been done.” And, indeed, he did.
    10. One last statement the America’s Packard Museum believes to be certain: No one, not even Dutch Darrin himself, could create this magnificent Speedster in his backyard using a rope, a tree limb, and a dis-used Auburn boattail body!

    Statements of Fact Provided by Friends of the Dick Saunders Estate

    1. It is undisputed that a family close to the Dick Saunders Estate holds voluminous automobile documentation from the estate that reveals this engine had been installed in more than one Packard chassis.
    2. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders owned more than 100 Packards in his lifetime and was an avid customizer who experimented with custom bodies and had a taste for custom European-built coachwork.
    3. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the July 1951 issue of Hot Rod with a photo of a Packard with an Auburn Speedster body described as a hybrid classic built by Dick Saunders.
    4. It is undisputed that Mr. Saunders was mentioned in the October 1952 issue of The Automobilist with a photo of a hybrid special built from Packard, Auburn and Studebaker components.
    5. It is undisputed that Mr. Sliger worked with Dutch Darrin to accurately restore the car and in the process, the body was mounted on a restoration chassis.
    6. This vehicle was previously sold at auction and represented with “replica coachwork”
    7. The friends of the Dick Saunders Estate believe this automobile was a special speedster creation built by Dick Saunders in the late 1940s. 
    8. <

       

    Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.

     

    1936 Packard Twelve Speedster 904080 Mecum Monterey 2016

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

    Guy in the video calls it a  "an outstanding design", I agree......I would rather be out standing on the side of the road than be seen in a fake car. Especially a poorly executed one. How about an opinion from someone who doesn't have any financial interest in it? Like we always say, where is the photo of it new, or pre war? Ain't got one? It's not real till you prove it is. No designer in the world would take credit for that thing....if they were in their right mind. That said, I'm sure it's a fun car to bang around town in. The video is too painful to watch. 

    • Like 6

    Thinking of buying my first late 30’s Cad

    in Our Cars & Restoration Projects

    Posted

    There are no rare late 30's Cadillacs. Even the "best" models are available fairly easy. Don't buy a car you see because its' a "good deal". Buy a good car....much cheaper in the long run. Late 30's parts are easily available unless it's a V-16. You can buy a fantastic car for very little money.......so buying any late 30's Cadillac that doesn't go down the road well and reliable isn't any type of "deal".

    • Like 4
    • Thanks 1

    1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

    in Locomobile

    Posted

    Yale locks from 1922 to 1934 are common on high end car applications. They were particularly attractive and had a high standard of finish on closed car interiors with dash cabinets. (That’s glove boxes for the common folk.) 

     

    When it comes to mandates on chassis sales to coach builders.........nothing except radiator, hood, and front fenders were ever really standard.....and then often modified. Post WWI Loco 48 chassis were almost ancient compared to many others......more after lunch.

    • Like 1

    3D printing files data bank?

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

    Gary, I will be happy to be the agent advertising and handling all additional sales of the files for a five percent commission.  Unfortunately even at one dollar for each file copy, I think future sales for the next 300 years is projected at zero dollars in sales.......under the best case scenario. Looks like neither one of us will retire from the cash flow generated on this project. 

     

    If it wasn't that Gary was a true car guy, and interested in helping other people, this project would have NEVER been done. Thanks to him, four cars missing an important component under the hood will now be back to the way they should be. I owe him more than I can say..............

     

    THANKS GARY!

     

     

    PS- I actually looked into trying to get set up to do this myself, so in my old age I could have a desk job that offered a small income and keeps me in the hobby. Software and plastic printer are reasonably affordable. I have 6 years of drawing back in the 70's and 80's when done by hand, and am skilled above average for the era when I was learning.......it was at the very end of hand drawing. I looked into classes to attend at the local community college..........figure six to eight classes to get a good understanding of the process. Add in all of that....the skill set that is missing from my stand point........engineering background, manufacturing process, hell......you need a lifetime of real engineering hands on experience to get the thing right.........I simply don't have the skill set to be an effective and competent operator of the technology. That won't stop a bunch of internet experts trying to sell their services at inflated rates for sub standard work. If you need to do projects like this you need professionals like Gary to get it right. They are hard to find at any price. So the "miracle" of scanning, printing, and cad/cam manufacturing small batch and prototypes is still very far off in the future where regular car guys will take advantage of it. 

    • Like 6
    • Thanks 1

    1936 Packard Twelve 1408 All Weather Town Car

    in "Not Mine" Automobiles For Sale

    Posted

    People who have lack of knowledge on how to sell such a car. Could be an estate situation with lazy lawyers. Since it was Tom’s car,  it will sell. Only question is what the market is on V-12 town cars, and even excellent examples restored by experts are difficult sells at best. I have a number in mind, and I’m certain it’s half of what they want. The town car premium today is much less than it was twenty years ago. I would only add fifteen percent over a sedan.......yup, that low. It’s more likely a private museum would be the best buyer on a car like this. Unfortunately, they are seldom driven on tours. Ultimately the market sets the price. The supply is almost zero, so isn’t the demand. Nice touring cars and phaetons are available today at very very reasonable numbers, and it’s kicking the hell out of the demand for huge heavy iron. 

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