[My "new" 1930 Pierce Arrow]

A man who owns a Pierce-Arrow envies no other man. 
 

Pierce advertisement, 1931.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Please excuse me while I take some time away from the forum..........work occasionally gets in the way (This job thing really rains on the parade of White projects!) and I need to play wrench to some Duesenbergs on tour in the Southern part of the US for the next eight days. The work of the poor and uneducated is NEVER done. When I return I will try and post a ton of stuff on my White number two............... Phil was a godsend his week......couldn’t have gotten the cars ready to tour without him. He’s got a bunch of fun stuff to do while I’m away........on the 1915 White. Hell, he is even working on the Stearns at the same time!

 

 

 

 

[Vintage car shopping frustrations]

2 hours ago, DrData said:

I experienced much the same attitude when I was shopping for an MG. There was a very nice one in the City by the Bay, about 70 miles away. Twice tried to hook up with the owner to see it and probably purchase it. Owner could not be bothered, always something else. Tried to meet on another one…oh, no, I “have to go skiiing”. Wait! I thought you were trying to sell a car! Silly me., just sitting around with cash in hand.

 

Its San Francisco why would you expect ANYTHING else? You can’t fix stupid.......or that state.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

So, I have a canceled registration for the car, supposedly dated 1922.......it’s certainly the 1920’s from the blank form space.......that has 511 as an engine number. The registration does NOT have a date for year of manufacture. It’s in my files, and I will post it tomorrow. Thus.......Proof that the engine was in the car extremely early.........😎
 

 

 

More lore that came with the car........it had a breakdown in 1921, and the original owner didn’t pay the bill.......so the garage filed a mechanic’s lean, and got possession of the car.......and the registration I have is supposed to show that transfer in 1922. 
 

Found a copy of the paperwork......it’s dated 1925, and shows 522 as an engine number, unfortunately......no date for year of manufacture.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

So......you can't tell from the photos of my car, but it has a 30hp White "factory" windshield on it. Identical to the car in the photo above. It also has some interesting details for trim and weather control, that I may be able to identify as one particular body builder. In my humble opinion, the windshield absolutely locks this cars date and platform to a 1914 or 1915 White 30 hp car............now the question of proving it was built as is, or is a converted hot rod when just a few years old.......or later. 

[1929 Cadillac V8 Seven Passenger Limo * Survivor *]

Neat car, leave it alone. Mid 20’s is ok for an asking price, expect 15 or less in today’s market. 

[Mounting tires]

50 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Thanks!!! Considering that is a 15 minute ride why did I know know of this??  

 

If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough!

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

George, I’m told.....with no proof that the dual plug set up with Zenith carb is 82 hp, and the single plug set up with White carb is 72 hp. If it’s got all 82, and an over drive.......it will be interesting! We are going to go with the largest OD tire we can get on it......to improve top end. Not sure we will run it flat out much..........since car number two is much lighter and smaller than number one......I expect a big performance difference. We are going to take our time on this one......we have a bunch of other stuff going on that must come first........the Stearns, and a few other projects. The number two is at Phil’s house. He can chip away at it during the week, and I can put a few nights in on it also. It will be easier after doing the first car........since they are basically identical except for size and mass.......we don’t have to figure anything out........been there, done that. We made decent special tools and pullers for the last car.......and have been using them on this one. Makes things go much faster.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Dave, the casting date in the engine is May 1915. The casting date on the first car is mid 1916. Interestingly, the location of the date on number two is on top and front of the block.......and low and hidden on the production car. It’s probably one of the few solid pieces of evidence that the car is very early, and some kind of test platform or experimental set up.

[Mounting tires]

Chrome wheels on a 1926 Ford T? Fancy! Tires aren’t getting harder to change, you are just getting old.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Mike......new to the market? They certainly had four speeds for many years earlier........at least 1911 on the 40 hp car. Was it over drive? No idea yet........can’t explain everything, can only read, observe, and inspect what I have. Number two looks smaller........is it just the car? No idea yet. Drive shaft is 1/2 the size of the first car........literally.  It’s certain that my car number two had a pressurized fuel tank, strange chassis length, different dash/steering/controls chassis, ect........than the 1916 & 1917 cars. No one would have went backwards from the old to the new. Maybe it’s just some weird test platform...........I think I need to see some cars and trucks in person to get a better grasp.

 

Remember, the mystery here isn’t “what is it” it’s more of a “when is it”? It’s all White......car, truck, hybrid? It’s going to be another month or two before we get enough free time to investigate other cars and trucks in person. Also, I bought the first car, only because it was humongous........the second car would have probably slipped away just from tire size.......because I was biased to big piles of heavy iron.......car number two is much more Stutz/Mercer like in size and stature. It looks like a big car......but not a monster like number one.

 

Also, the two plug head.........not seen on any production cars that we know of......how does one explain that? 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

George.....I have the parts catalog for the 1917 cars.......all showing the same front end, rear end, ect of my first car. It doesn’t explain the small chassis and platform of the second car. Best guess......they were experimenting with the 16V4 early, very early. The announcement of only fours was in early/mid 1915. They knew where they were going..........and they had the time, money, and ability to experiment with cars on the street.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

1 hour ago, George K said:

Ed, Your forgetting that 16V4’s are the first unit engine White made. No other transmission from a car would work as the are separate amidship. 

I thought that till about four or five days ago, and in late 1914, the transmissions all went to wet disk. Cone clutches went away across the board.  The town car has the over drive trans in it. (1916 cars sales catalogs show they are still the separate unit with the jack shaft.) Had a conversation with another White owner who replied in like without hesitation. I’m still sorting it all out, typical White............what you read, what is published by the company, and what they actually built. The Zenith engineering card clearly shows they were manufacturing carburetors for the 16V4 in 1915. Interesting that White ended up using their own barrel valve unit instead. The conversation with him really went into detail, on multiple years, applications, and horsepower from 1914 to 1923 on transmissions and clutches. Including photos of factory tools..........to adjust and remove them. The guy helped me early on on the first car........I would have taken a month to figure it out without his help. He even went into detail on brake drums, design changes, and the like. Interesting fellow, who is meeting me Monday for lunch in the Smokey Mountains on another tour.........with his 1923 White Yellowstone bus......seen below. And you thought car collectors were crazy! Try collecting busses!

 

 

 

 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Ok....the floor boards are original to the car.......and the transmission fits the carefully cut and trimmed floor boards. The clutch yolk that was cracked.........had a casting ID on it. The letters were.....GM. That corresponds to an over drive transmission. See photo below...........driveshaft looks like it hasn't been modified. And its much smaller......and corrasponds to a 30 hp chassis. We will look at engine mounts, exhaust, and other items in a couple of weeks. We will try and figure out if the engine was a replacement........if so, it sure looks like it may have been done at the factory or dealership...........what we see so far makes it look like a whole unit as built.......we will continue to post what we see, and try and get more help from people here...... George, I am sure will keep looking............he loves the challenge...........and nailing down what is, what is not correct..........to be honest........wouldn't suprise me if we never get a definitive answer.......all we can do is out best. 👍 

 

Just do me one favor........call it anything but a "bitsa".

 

 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

The 15 Town car has a higher number than my White number two...........I was able to talk to the guy who made the rear drums........and got a boatload of information. The chassis on the car is what "White" truck collectors call a 30 hp chassis, or 3/4 ton. Decided to take a half hour and go see the car again, and now had better ideas of what we should look at. The parking lights are original to the car, but a different style and type compared to any factory lights. I'm convinced 100 percent the chassis is 14 or 15. Now the question is, is the engine in the car the one it came with. I think it is correct, and we have a few more avneues to go down and determine if it has been changed out. They did build cars with the 4-45 on the 30 hp chassis.........and they did the up and down swap outs on the trucks also. Not all trucks had electric starters...........so that tosses in another monkey wrench. It's going to come down to the transmission, and if it's a four speed direct, or a four speed over drive.........which it looks so different than the 1917 car.........I'm putting my money on four speed direct............ so, now we are at..........which engine was in the car when new? If it was replaced, when? Will a four speed direct bolt up to a 16V4? Or will only a four speed overdrive line up? The frame is made so that you can make any wheelbase you want...........unlike the 1917. So it's basically a set of straight rails behind the mid section, and all the attachment points of the fuel tank, spring, cables, ect.........are all drilled and riveted into position. All the rivets are factory.........so this body was built on and for this chassis. Fortunately there is a 30, and a 45 hp pair of cars a few hours away that I can examine. With careful measuring we should get definitive answers.......... maybe back in 1917 the White suffered an engine failure, and they dumped the 82 hp twin plug 16V4 in it? We may never know. The only thing for sure........it's a 30hp chassis.........with a 16V4 in it. I guess ultimatly it's ok from the touring aspect, as the date code on the engine is May of 1915. And another thing.......the car uses 24 inch truck wheels on it.....I assumed it was the 25 inch from the mid size car line, but they are 24 inch......so now I need to hunt up correct tires, and return the ones I bought yesterday. 

 

There are 16V4 engines with numbers into the 900's and reports of them into the low thousands.......like 1015 or so. Not really sure how White numbered any engine...........or how they pulled from inventory. Only problem with the argument is the number being high...........it's a twin plug engine, which from everything I have seen and understand........were only used on test platforms and "family cars". Much of that info is legend and lore........not so much fact. 

 

My best understanding is that by 1912, all White trucks and cars were like Lego's, the stuff all seemed basically universal, and they assembled things as they saw fit. 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

23 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

I love your line of thought and the documentation you research and find. It’s probably the best historical car search I’ve ever read or will read. Can’t wait for the rest of the story. 
dave s 

 

It's been easier from all the help here..........I wouldn't have half the stuff it it wasn't for the help from half a dozen guys who constantly PM me with leads and inf.......and for all of them.....

 

 

Thank You All!

 

Let's just hope it isn't a back yard build done in the 50's!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Last night going over some on line files, it occurred to me.........maybe the chassis is from one of their ambulance/hearse lines? Or some small commercial truck chassis that wasn't necessarly listed or cataloged. They seem to have built just about anything anyone would want.......are there truck books like there are for cars showing lines available by builder and year? Maybe we should chase down truck publications and see if we find anything?????

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

7 hours ago, George K said:

Your White was sold in California. You mentioned that fact a couple of times.

You didn’t offer your opinion on the topic. How many with the smaller wheels were sold in California. Here are a couple of pictures showing the small cowl light you wondered about. They appear to be an accessory put on by Earl Body Co.when the installed the California Top.

 

I have seen one drawing of a car that was labeled Rubay with cowl lights and no vents, but can’t find it now. It didn’t have cowl vents, and I think it was a mistake or incorrect attribute. The strange issue is with White’s special ignition and light switch on thr column, there was no way to turn on parking lights, and there was no brake light either. Thus the question is were they all operated at the same time and not independently available? No high beams either. Also, since White used a unique light assembly that no one else used.......would a body built in California have the factory lights installed on it? I’m guessing the answer is probably not...........and that’s why I’m thinking the body builder is a Cleavland shop that I have a catalog for, but haven’t had time to copy and post yet. I’m trying to get two cars loaded for a 1000 mile tour this week, and playing catch-up after six weeks I just don’t have time to dig through my archive to get to it. The cowl door hardware, frames, and linkage are brass.......which match the windshield, radiator, lights, and assorted hardware.....the big car only has brass radiator that was painted over by the factory, and a painted windshield frame. All the hardware is parkerized black and some few selected nickel pieces. 
 

I thought Earl was probably the builder early on..........now, I don’t think so........only because the car looks and feels too heavy for their styling.........in other words, the coachwork isn’t attractive enough to come from Earl............conjecture only, but just an opinion from the three Earl bodies I have seen. And two of them were his designs, but not constructions.

 

The small car has totally different hardware, with a fair amount of brass, where in the identical location on the big car we see pot metal plated with nickel or parkerized nuts and bolts. The hardware is actually smaller in size on the car number two. Spindle and axel nuts are 1/3 the size of the big car. 
 

In a couple,of weeks, we will push the car outside and post a bunch of body photos. It’s difficult to tell, but the doors and sides are 3 or 3 1/2 inches thick to support the windows and their slides. I have never seen any body that even comes close to the thickness till the mid 30’s. It’s so thick that it could be described as awkward..........since I bought the car from a few poor photos like car number one, I didn’t realize the the top was in fact built into the design and not done afterwards like 95 percent of the California tops I have seen in the past. Also, most California tops are removable like the one on Ron’s Kissel Car. 
 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Chasing data tag photos on line, and this popped up. A hood emblem on a 1940’s school bus. Imagine that today? Shit would hit the fan!  Yes, this is real, and was used for a decade. The times are a changing......I assume these 40’s logos were controversial by the 50’s if not earlier. Since Cleveland was a northern city and fairly well integrated, one would assume at the time it didn’t have any controversy or negative implications. 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Numbers per your request........

 

Firewall tag at drivers feet.

 

Number stamped into cowl steel support band. Up high, and easy to see. They put it there to find it.

 

Car number two has no numbers, or signs of ever having any numbers...........

 

Interesting no model or series numbers were punched into the tag.......all truck and buses I have seen are all filled out with engine size and truck series........

Interesting the tag has a 1913 as the latest date for a car from 1917. It was a new corporation by mid 1916........no change to the tag? Weird.

 

 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

30x72x19mm Car number two front wheel bearings

65x140x33mm Car number one front wheel bearings

 

Half the size? 
 

 

Its obviously much smaller from one car to the other.........more like 1 1/2 ton to 1/2 ton. The White #2 is definitely much lighter in construction than the big car.........🤔

 

Car number two sure seems like it was built from leftover parts and floor sweepings when new.........nothing on it makes sense. 
 

It sure looks like the chassis is a assemblage of 30 and 45 hp components. 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

45 minutes ago, George K said:

Please provide pictures of the small brake drums. If they are of the same type on #1 they were patented by the chief engineer at White in 1917.

Having serviced, adjusted, and driven on the design, I can tell you he should have worked in a flower shop or bakery. He had no business designing brakes. They do catch fire easily........I will give him that! 

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

41 minutes ago, George K said:

Please provide pictures of the small brake drums. If they are of the same type on #1 they were patented by the chief engineer at White in 1917.

Was told today the drums are new replacements from the 80’s made by truck/bus guys. Called the old owner for the originals to be shipped. (He is check to see if he still has them.) They are smaller than the big car by about two inches by eye. I still haven’t seen the car for several weeks, working off what Phil is telling me. I sure he is correct. He spoke to the past owner.

 

Also told today the rear brake bands were remade also............no reason why. I’m thinking they were some kind of modern upgrade to make it stop better? I know the guy who made them, and I will call and see if he remembers selling them to the past owner. It’s all very strange. I’m thinking the rear might be a unit off a 30 hp car...........all the stuff seems smaller in size than one would expect. You would think truck/bus rear ends would be bigger than cars stuff. Possible they were using something else for the fleet stuff they were building for the national parks? Also have the rear end noise that concerned me listed before.......now worried they changed thing up.......and didn’t know what they were doing or thinking it through. Phil said the noise was easy to hear when pushing the car in and out of the garage........less so going down the road. It’s making me nervous now.......and I can’t get to the car for another two weeks at the soonest. Gonna sweat it out till then...........

 

Phil also says the transmission is different, and looks smaller..........we will find out for sure, as we have decided to pull it no matter what to do the clutch, but that probably won’t happen for five or six weeks.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

59 minutes ago, George K said:

Please post the White serial firewall tags. Never have seen a picture of either car. Like to be able to memorialize both of them for history sake.

First car has normal tags, numbers on tag, firewall. Car number two does not have any that we can find so far.

[The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida]

Ok, so 1916 & 1917 White cars shared very similar dash boards, controls, steering wheel, steering box, and ignition and fuel systems. Below, see photos showing the 1916 sales catalog photos, and see the Stewart Warner vacuum tank and headlight/ignition switch...........all a different generation than what is on White #2. With the casting date, dual plugs, earlier steering wheel,  column and box, pressurized fuel tank, battery/magneto combination ignition, smaller wheels, smaller hubs, smaller front and rear ends, different construction with much more brass hardware, different transmission, everything just points to a 1914-1915 chassis and platform. We have decided to title and register it to 1915, and feel comfortable with what we have on hand. This also corresponds to the other 1915 Dual Plug 16V4 car in Michigan that has been in the hobby and touring since the 1960’s. See photos from the 16 sales catalog to verify what was being produced and sold in 16 & 17. What series or model is it? No clue as to nomenclature..........I suspect when we have it all finished, sorted, and dialed in.........it’s gonna have a new nickname.............. “The Beast” come first to mind, and “Carzilla” is also a popular name with the local kids. I was leaning towards........”The Animal”. Time will tell.