poci1957

Those figures just show how successful the 120/110 program was and the prestige the Packard name had then. For two generations Packard had been THE premium car to own and now one could buy a new Packard for the price of a Buick or Oldsmobile. It would be the equivalent of Mercedes Benz today building a midsize car for $22,000, why buy a Camry or Taurus when you could have the Mercedes name for about the same money? The thing is that after this life saving move the company didn't go back upmarket and re-establish their prestige afterward, as we are covering in my post "Low end Packards after WWII.

Pete is correct that the Senior and Junior cars from 1935-1939 are totally different, and while one can certainly appreciate a nice 120 or a postwar Packard, they are totally outclassed by the V12 era big cars. Pete, what was the old story I once read, that they split the work force in half, 5000 people on each model line, and the senior people built 5000 cars to 50,000 120's? It seems it was something like that. Also, excellent point regarding Engine Charlie Wilson, I had forgotten about that. Todd C

Robert, those are interesting points, especially regarding the Patrician percentages. The question I would pose on the subject is how does this compare to Cadillac's performance of the same period? I suspect the actual market share in the upper price field was diminished compared to Cadillac. Todd C

Bob, would you say this borrowing for tooling probably had to do with the sale of Briggs to Chrysler, meaning that Packard would HAVE to buy tooling for bodies, rather than buying them from Briggs? Also, what projects did Nance squander the money on? Todd C

Dave, I share your concern about this and your "raw materials" remark is spot on. I have watched this abuse steamroll for several years and am worried about it's growth. I wonder, however, if anyone has an idea about how to change this unfortuate trend? WHY would someone decide to street rod rather than properly restore an old car? I think I know several reasons, as likely do you, in fact many of you are probably rodding right now. Is rodding more popular because you aren't judged and critiqued? Is it because you don't have to research things? OR is there a peer group issue that as potential hobbyists go to local shows they see more street rods and are attracted into this more visible group? I am just floating ideas here, any comments? Todd C

Hello Pete, I had been looking forward to your views and we seem to be together on this. I cannot critique Bob's alleged post about the junior and senior interchange, as I can't find this post and I am sure there was just an error as Bob seems much the Packard historian. However, to the casual car fan there probably is increasing misunderstanding of the "classic" Packard and the junior Packard (a regular subject of yours, of course). I am about to go to Hershey, and a favorite treat for me there is to spot a thirties era senior car and compare it to a nearby 120 or 160. If one looks at pictures in a book, they appear similar, and I agree the 120 was the right car for the thirties. BUT if one sees a V12 in person, one can see beyond the grille outline that this is another breed entirely, and one can lament the "pregnant elephant" and the other postwar cars that diminished the prestige so much. So Pete, you mentioned a new crew of executives after the war, can you expand on this a bit? We know the last V12 was in 1939, the 1940-41 cars used shared platforms, and the Clipper was the new generation. We also know the wartime mindset of the company was about mass production and not the "carriage trade". So 1945 dawns and postwar plans are to be made. What has changed in the board room to make executives so blind to the upper priced field? The company has plenty of money, the factory needs some work, but is functioning and staffed. The Clipper body is somewhat fresh, although the vertical grille may be passe compared to Cadillac and Buick and a (tasteful) restyle may be needed. Had 6-7 years been long enough for everyone to forget what Packard had meant in the thirties and before? Or did they just give up, thinking they couldn't match Cadillac anymore? I recall reading that someone at Packard was analyzing their market position in the fifties and pointed out that Buick and Cadillac were perfectly positioned in their markets, even in the mind of the casual observer, but Packard no longer had prestige brand recognition as they had before the war. As you said, this repeated itself at Cadillac in the seventies and (especially) eighties and carries on today. I still feel this has to be the turning point to oblivion, and I wonder why long-time board members and execs, who probably were upper-class themselves, could not see the mistake about to happen. One would think they would compare their Packard to a Cadillac and see the slide beginning. Or do we think they had the arrogance not to? Hope to see your comments and thanks, Todd Crews

To Bob "Constellation" thank you for your response, since the previous string was getting lenghty I am posing my question as a new post. To new viewers, the question is why did Packard not move back upmarket after the war? Of course we know George Christopher was the 120 and 110 guy, and we know that the real, low volume senior cars were phased out with more "platform sharing" with the 160 and 180 lines. And we know Packard made plenty of money during the war and it was likely enhanced by Christopher's timely transition to more mass production, which probably enhanced his standing all the more. So, do we think that his professed dislike for "that ******* Senior stuff" totally colored his decision? Do we think that his only wish for Packard was to rival GM in the heart of the middle priced market against Buick? An obvious mistake in my opinion, especially looking at the 1942-48 Buicks, one of the all-time sharp mid-priced cars. It would seem to me, with the demise of LaSalle and the debut of the 1941-48 Cadillac that it would be apparent Cadillac was positioned to be the luxury leader. It seems Packard would have looked to the higher price class to reap (a)more profit per unit to cover their higher production costs and (b)the cash-flush postwar boom. Obviously coachbuilt cars were not coming back, but the Cadillac example of a production luxury car with some prestige would seem like it would have attracted SOMEONE'S eye. And someone should have also noted that while it costs a little more to build a luxury car than a mid priced car, you can charge a LOT more IF the car is prestigious and desirable, as a 1941 Cadillac certainly was. What do you think? Todd Crews

To Jack, Bob, and Peter H, I have enjoyed your exchange despite your disagreements. Perhaps you can entertain a question from a younger Packard fan who is somewhat well versed in Packard history BUT was not there at the time like you were. The question is this--after the war, why do you think the company did not move back upmarket? Was it because George Christopher had the influence and prevented it? It seems that even he could see the logic--steel and other materials were limited and more profit per car could be made while probably maintaining volume in the postwar boom. It seems the prestige was probably still there, if reduced, and Clipper styling had been praised before the war. Of course, the 1941-42 GM styling did look fresher after the war, but it still seems a high end car would have been a better bet than a Buick competitor. What are your opinions? Todd Crews

Referencing the Standard Catalog of American cars it appears there is some doubt about correct totals, but the best estimate is 6775 Custom Hardtops in 1951. How many are left? Some estimate a 10% survival rate for fifties cars, which would be 677, but I bet there are fewer than that. Enjoy your rare car, Todd C

Bob, have you tried Hampton Coach? That would be my first guess.

Rick, I think the thing is that it is possible a sharp judge may notice the difference, but it is also possible they may not--it is a gamble. I suggest that you get shocks as close in appearance as possible, remove any ID marks that would make them look modern, and paint them black. You may be discovered, you may not, just make the installation neat and correct for the era. Todd C

I would concur on the nickel plating. Chrome is certainly not correct for the grease fittings and chrome for the valve stems would be very improbable.

I agree, these are a neat, distinctive car I have been expecting to see more interest in for years. As stated, indoor storage is the way, outdoor is not good. If you must be outside, I would probably avoid a car cover as I think it would trap moisture. I would also park on pavement if possible, as parking on dirt or grass will cause moisture underneath and these cars are rust prone anyway. Best wishes, Todd C

Try Just Dashes and Legendary Auto Interiors, both should have web sites. You might also get a Chevy catalog from CARS in Michigan, as glass and some sheetmetal and trim will fit from a Chevy. Best Wishes, Todd C

The headliner should be stapled or tacked to some very thin and fragile tacking strips along the windshield and rear window, and some thicker ones on the side. If the thin strips go bad you should be able to glue it in there instead, use 3M general trim adhesive and follow the directions on the can. Measure the new headliner and mark the center line, and do the same with the bows, also marking what order they were in, left and right sides, and if there are several sets of mounting holes which ones were used. Then you will just have to stretch it and smooth it into place. It will probably take some adjusting, but it can be done. Best wishes, Todd C

They are scarce, but start by getting a free catalog from Ames Performance Pontiac, they have a web site. When looking at used parts, be advised that doors are the same on all 1963-4 Pontiacs of the same bodystyle, and lower quarter panels could be modified to work from a 1964 Bonneville or Star Chief.

Would anyone have any knowledge of Comet and Pan American automobiles, assembled cars built in Decatur IL circa 1917-22? I am interested in firsthand knowledge and especially anyone who may own one or have owned one, I have the basics from the Standard Catalog of American cars. I know they are not horseless carriages, but have gotten little input elsewhere, would appreciate any help, thanks. Todd Crews, Decatur IL

You just have to dig for information like that and make careful notes and observations. I would suggest starting with the appropriate club, and if they do not have a manual or anything take a look at the many 1957 Chevy and Corvette books to see if any information there might apply to you. Best wishes, Todd C

I would like to suggest selling it if you don't like it. It may be plain but Camaros that original are pretty scarce and it would be good to let someone save it and preserve it. If you really want a Z28 you can find one elsewhere. Todd

I'm 34 and ALWAYS the youngest old car guy in any group.

The AACA wants you to use safety glass and will not deduct points. Just make sure that when your glass is made up that the trademark stamps are not in a visible location. Todd Crews

You probably could use a Danchuk parts catalog. They are a good repro parts place to work with and their catalog is VERY useful. It has lots of info on castings, VINS, trim codes, etc. that may help here. <BR>800-854-6911 <A HREF="http://www.danchuk.com" TARGET=_blank>www.danchuk.com</A>

Sure, what do you need to know? Todd Crews

Do any members have any information or experience on the Pan American and Comet assembled cars of Decatur IL, (approx 1917-22)? I am interested especially if anyone owns or has owned one of these cars, would appreciate any reply, Todd Crews, Decatur IL

I still would like some feedback from sharp old timers, does anyone out there HAVE a Pan American or Comet, or know of any still in existence? Would like any advice or information, Todd Crews, Decatur IL