wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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4 hours ago, speedyb said:
The Stutz came out of Riverside Ca when I purchased it in 2019, was garaged there since 1951 but was indeed brought down to So Cal from the bay area in the late 40's.
Thank you speedyb, I figured it likely was not the same car based upon some differences in condition. I don't know if my friend still has his Stutz sedan or not as family health issues have kept me from being active with local clubs for way too many years now. However your car looks so much like his and the condition is very similar, that seeing a picture of yours was like seeing an old friend in a photo.
He had had a couple very original cars and was one of the first people I ever knew that used the word "patina". And his Stutz had plenty of it! He had a small collection of good antique automobiles, which a nasty divorce forced him to sell most of. He was only able to keep a couple high end classics, which left him out of a "Nickel Club" for a short while. Once the dust settled, he bought his Stutz for Nickel Club use, and enjoyed it for several years.
Wonderful car! I hope you enjoy it for many years.
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Overall, the OP car has a decidedly General Motors or Fisher Body company look to it. The dual moldings, window surrounds, visor and brackets, all look GM. The fenders could be low end GM, or Durant, or Willys or a dozen others. The hubcaps however do not strike me as GM. However, after-market hubcaps were available for many common tread sizes, and came in a variety of styles for various interests. They were not generally very popular, but do show up from time to time. Of course the most common special hubcaps fit the model T Ford, because there were so many of them. I have had several after-market hubcaps for model Ts. I also, years ago, had a couple after-market replacement caps that fit the 1925 Studebaker I had then. They went with the car when I sold it.
Lodges used to offer hubcaps for their members, I have seen them for BOE, IOOF, as well as Moose Lodge.
DLynskey, The Falcon Knight is a neat little car! About the size of the smaller Buick standard, they were good cars built for about two years. A couple different good friends had one many years ago. I rode in it several times, mostly with the second owner I knew. It was a four door sedan in very original and nice condition. That second owner also got a parts car that he kept a few pieces of. The parts car was in really bad shape, and he sold it a short time later.
I don't know what eventually became of that sedan. I would enjoy seeing it again.
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53 minutes ago, modela28 said:
It looks to be a Chandler which has similar lines to the same era Lozier.
A good friend over twenty years ago had a 1915 Lozier. I got to sit in it a few times, and followed him on club tours a couple times. Great car! Looking at the photo above, it is quite similar in lines, but my reaction was that it was more likely a Chandler (especially looking at the radiator in the front view). There was some short carryover from one to the other for couple years.
A lot of really fine cars in those photos!
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That rusty Stutz looks a lot like one a good friend in Oakland California had about twenty years ago!
A pretty good turnout of cars for a mildly rainy day (I see the streets are wet). From model Ts to Rolls Royce! a Pope Hartford, and a Stanley Steamer. Packards, early Cadillac, and is the blue touring one of the last Loziers or first Chandlers?
A lot of really wonderful cars!
Sure wouldn't have wanted to do much in our area today. We had a couple inches of rain yesterday, and probably about an inch today! The heavy warmish rains (temps in the 40s and 50s) are melting last week's snow and we have serious flooding in low areas. Many roads are closed throughout the region.
Thank you for the report and photos!
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5 hours ago, rocketraider said:
That was a lot of overhang aft of the rear wheels.
I have never been into motorcycles. So I don't have a lot of experience with handling them or how much they weigh. That one on the back of that thing isn't a big one, not like a full size Harley or something. But I would guess it would weigh in at about four to five hundred pounds? And it is more than half the wheelbase behind the rear axle. That is a lot of leverage to have that much weight out there!
I wonder if the customer when he asked the dealer about putting the camper on that pickup also mentioned he was going to add that much weight that much farther back?
I may not like the way businesses are run these days? But I don't blame them for every mistake people make.
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I would like to hear what Grimy thinks about this one.
While the hubcap does look very much like the ones Paige used for about six years? Nothing else on the car looks "Paige" to me. I cannot recall ever seeing a Paige with fenders like the OP car. Nor have I seen a sun visor like that one on a Paige, Although an after-market one might be possible. However most Paige sedans in the mid 1920s had the long roof line overreaching the windshield like the Paige that Gunsmoke posted just above. The four lug wheels also suggest it would not be a Paige.
But the hubcap sure looks like it could be?
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I think there are two real problems here.
One, its not the weight of the camper? It is the weight "distribution" of the camper. There is WAY too much weight too far behind the rear axle!
Two. I don't think I can say what "two" is. It would be too close to stepping on the "politics" of today.
Frankly? With the weight distribution of that mess? It was unsafe at any speed before it broke!
Forty years ago, We had a 1972 big huge Chrysler station wagon. A good car in some ways, and was in beautiful condition. It was long and low and heavy. I nicknamed it the "Battleship"! One of the worst cars I ever drove on winding mountain roads! I grew up on winding mountain roads. I did a lot of my learning to drive on winding mountain roads.
You know those signs with the arrow and the "suggested" speed for the turns? It is rare for me to not be able to handle those turns at fifteen miles per hour OVER the "suggested" speeds! In most modern (and even a few antique!) cars I have had over the years. But that Chrysler? With its big heavy tailgate over five feet behind the rear axle and soft ride suspension? At ten mph UNDER the suggested speed? That car was dangerously unstable, and very difficult to keep within its lane.
Over the several years we had it? It also blew out or destroyed four rear tires! And they were all nearly new. As beautiful as it was, I was glad to get rid of it.
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Bad news good news.
The odds are against you.
Nobody really knows how many model Ts survive out of the over fifteen million built. And nobody knows how many thousands of incomplete cars are still hiding in barns or fields all over the country. And survival rate of trucks is less than the survival rate of cars because the trucks were used and abused far worse than most cars. Estimates for the survival of model Ts of the 1920s range between one to three percent.
The states don't help much, they don't know the difference between and antique and a hotrod. Besides, probably more than half the surviving model Ts haven't been driven or kept current for many years again.
And the serial numbers are a problem. A high percentage of surviving Ts have had the engine changed at some point in the past hundred years. Ford only put the serial number on the frame of the last few million Ts. And even many of them used the new engine's number after a change. So very few T cars or trucks know for certain what their original serial number was.
TT truck frames are fairly common. Probably into the tens of thousands of them survive, scattered across the country. Most hidden or lost in junk piles with no idea what the truck that was on them was really like, and no serial number to even compare (except for the 1926/'27s).
Your family's truck is very interesting. Likely earlier than the 1925 given in your paperwork. The low seven million number, if the engine was the original one, would put it in the early months of 1923. The wooden cab also indicates earlier than 1925. From 1918 through 1923, Ford only provided the chassis for the TT truck! Buyers were either on their own, or aided by the local dealer in supplying a body suitable for their planned use. TTs ranged from crude and simple, all the way to some really elegant commercial coachwork. Literally hundreds of local and regional companies built bodies for model T trucks!
That business died quickly in 1924 when Ford first began offering readymade bodies on TT trucks. Their mass production made those trucks so cheap that except for special demands, it simply wasn't worth buying the bare chassis and then paying for a local built body.
Your family's truck may have had a Martin-Parry body on it. They were one of the few companies to market large numbers of truck bodies nationwide! They are widely recognized as among the best, and most desirable TT truck bodies! For that reason, any that survived beyond World War Two, have a fairly good chance of still being around today. And since your paperwork puts yours in use during WW2, its chances are much better than most.
Martin-Parry also was large enough to continue providing better body options for trucks way beyond the model T.
I would recommend posting on the MTFCA forum also. It is very active with hundreds of regular members very interested in model T Fords in general. And there are quite a few people there with Martin-Parry model T trucks! There is even a Martin-Parry website somewhere they comment about from time to time.
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I don't think white tires are available for the 21 inch rims. But I could be wrong. I know I have never really seen any. And almost nobody with the cars that used 21 inch rims would want white tires on such a car. Most cars using them were later, mid 1920s to early 1930s cars, and a bit heavier than a model T. You should check with the major tire suppliers and ask to be sure.
But even if they happened to be currently available? I wouldn't count on replacements later.
You should be able to find some local model T club members around Florida. Check with both the Model T Ford Club of America and the Model T Ford Club International for local chapters and contact information.
It sounds as though you could use some hands-on instruction about the differences in the wheels.
For some really good background information, do read through all the links Bloo provided on Saturday. I did a quick check on them and they all have very good information (thank you Bloo!)
Then, with a bit of background information you could look at someone's extra junk and get a better idea of what you want to find.
Which felloes or rims are best? Really is mostly a matter of availability. I don't know how it is in Florida, but here in California the Hayes rims seem to be the most available. However, the fellies to match them are harder to find.
Condition of the rims is extremely important! The inner edge of the clincher cannot be rusted away very much. Even a short area rusted too thin can destroy the clincher tire's bead and result in a blowout. I have often considered cutting and welding good sections of rims to repair rust damaged rims. But so far I have still always been able to find good rims for my cars.
I would tend to avoid the wheels and rims for model Ts that the rims do not have the lugs attached to the rim. Although it was much more common for non-Fords to have separate lugs, and they work fine. I don't like the way most of the "loose lug" Ford rims and wheels secure the rim onto the wheel. That, coupled with the convenience of attached lugs would have me choosing the attached lug rims and wheels.
There was one loose-lug Ford wheel that would work fine. But they are very rare and I wouldn't recommend putting a set together. IF you found a full set with all the lug pieces and two spare rims, they would be great and fun to have. Otherwise, too much trouble. They are so rare that MOST model T owners have never seen even one such wheel! And I have never seen a full set.
Happy hunting!
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I have seen this photo before. IF I recall correctly (getting less reliable with each passing year?), I 'think' the car was identified as a Scripps Booth?
I can't be sure, but that was what hit me in the head the moment I opened this thread.
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When my wife declared that she wanted to move into the Sierra foothills, I said that I "wanted to live where it snowed enough to love it! But not snow enough to hate it!" Grass valley has fit that just fine.
Frankly, there isn't much around here that I really like. Seventeen years, but I still love the snow. Even after last year's heaviest single day snowfall in over fifty years! We had no power for over two weeks, but my old generator almost survived. Even cell phones were out for a couple days. The landline was out for a month. Barely jury-rigged internet for a month. We had water, and propane. And I haven't had any real trouble driving in the stuff yet.
Here, even locals born here freak out over two inches of snow! I just don't get it? What is the big deal over less than a foot of the white stuff? You would think these silly people were in Buffalo NY the way they carry on about the inconvenience of a few inches!
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I knew that Horace Dodge had an incredible personal yacht! But I cannot recall ever seeing a good picture of the engine before. Neat!
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Unless someone (likely Buffaloed Bill?) knows a particular car, things like this are often difficult to know what it was and what is right or wrong about it.
The fact is, that most companies that built hearses or ambulances also built what were known as "funeral coaches". They were usually oversize limousine-like vehicles with extra seating for family and friends of the deceased to ride together in some degree of privacy. Although most of them were never driven much, they mostly went out of style, and were left out to rot and few survive today.
That said, several things about this vehicle suggest that it has been modified greatly since it was originally built. Whether someone lengthened a regular sedan? Or filled in a proper hearse? I can't tell from the photos. But I have seen a few original funeral coaches, and that thing is all messed up in the back inside! The flooring is all wrong. The seats are all wrong. It looks to me like someone went to a great deal of effort without knowing what was right.
My quick opinion based upon too little information.
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5 minutes ago, dirtywaterdiver said:
Sorry, way I learned it when I was working in the parts industry back in the day, albeit new cars.
A very common mistake these days, and quite understandable. Since the 1930s, most automobile "rims" and "wheels" are one and the same thing. Only when one starts playing with cars before about 1934 does one run into the thousands of makes and models that used separate rims that mount on the outer of the wheel. Then when one goes further back into the 1910s and even earlier, demountable rims weren't in use then. And, again, the rim becomes part of the wheel, and they are again as a unit, one and the same. However, in discussions about those earlier wheels, it is still appropriate to know the different parts of the wheel.
If you ask about a "rim" when what you want is information about "spokes" or "fellies"? Your going to have trouble getting the right information.
Welcome to the crazy ways of earlier days!
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I love it! I used to love night driving my antiques. There was a historic theater in South San Francisco that used to show early silent films most Friday nights. Several friends and I used to drive our antiques up there quite often, and then home in the wee hours of Saturday morning. We often spent an hour or two after the movie at Turk Murphy's "Earthquake McGoon's" club for some wonderful music and dancing!
A couple of the friends lived in Fremont and Hayward (East Bay). So we usually went across the Oakland Bay Bridge and had a late dinner at a 24 hour hamburger place in downtown Oakland! That place was amazingly good! We often arrived there at nearly 2:30 after chatting with Turk at closing time.
For the friends and I living in San Jose, it was a nearly hundred mile round trip! More than half of it in the dark. So much fun! I really miss those days.
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I shouldn't talk about it. I'll probably start to cry.
The best tour car I ever had was the 1915 built series 16 Studebaker six cylinder seven passenger touring car. The six's bore and stroke was the same as the four cylinder car the same year. A couple hundred pounds heavier, and fifty percent more displacement! I don't know what the gear ratio was, but it could really roll along. I drove the car on a lot of club tours and personal pleasure drives. Other club members often asked me if I was running full throttle as they could barely keep up. But I never did find out what the top speed was. I was clocked at 65 mph once.
Near my house on the local freeway is a rather steep bit of a hill. I was running late due to a family issue and trying to get to a midway point to catch up for a VMCCA Nickel Age Tour. About two-tenths of a mile and about seven percent grade. I was doing 60 at the bottom, and topped the hill at still 50 mph! (A lot of modern cars can't do over 40 at the top of that hill!)
A lot of the larger automobiles in the mid to late 1910s had higher gearing than the cars that followed in the 1920s. Most roads still weren't fit for such high speeds, and customers became more interested in comfort and smoothness than speed.
Two wheel braking is an issue on the earlier cars! Once people became more comfortable with the idea of four wheel brakes, they discovered how much more effective they were. When heavy pressure is applied to the brakes, the car pitches forward a bit. That pitching forward applies considerable pressure onto the front tires. As a result of this, nearly sixty percent of four wheel braking is done by the front wheels! A car with only two wheel braking on the rear has only about forty percent of the braking ability of a four wheel brake car. As a person that has driven tens of thousands of miles in cars with only two wheel brakes? I can tell you that makes a big difference!
I still love my two wheel brake cars, and I love to drive them a lot! It requires a mindset adjustment to allow for reaction times and braking differences. One needs to NEVER forget that other drivers DO NOT understand your braking ability or lack thereof. They WILL cut into your needed extra space, and you have to compensate for that.
I miss my Studebaker. I wish I could somehow get it back. But I can also like my 1915 model T Ford!
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I certainly do not have any inside knowledge of this car. But it might be a legitimate advertisement in spite of some standoffish attitude ("By appointment only. Call Jim, phone calls only. No text, No emails.") Price seems very fair. If I were interested in a model A roadster, I would want to look into this one!
However, I have seen a few older restoration model A roadsters shared here in the past year or two that were also very fair prices! And this car is not sharp. I see several things that will need attention. Generally, it looks like with just a bit of work one could have a fine driver model A. I think I am glad it is too far away. I still want something a bit earlier than that.
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There were so many books written for teenage boys surrounding automobiles. They were writing some of them in the 1910s, and continued well into the 1970s. Numerous series were written, including the "Motor Boys" that continued to be published for decades.
The added details aren't ringing any bells for me. Doesn't sound like any book I am familiar with. "Cheaper By The Dozen" was almost a literary classic, based upon real people that made contributions to the changing times, and a wonderful 1950 movie classic! But nothing in the story line that sounds like what you are looking for.
Good luck! I hope you find it.
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I don't know, I kind of like the idea of telling people ""Yeah, I had the Tucker out for a run today". Sort of like thumbing one's nose at some snobs?
I never did manage to get one. But I always wanted a 1910ish Brush automobile. I wanted to arrive at certain horseless carriage tours, walk around a bit and then tell people I "had to go get the Brush off!" (Off the trailer.)
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I don't know if I should mention this or not? Flag the post or shoot me maybe I don't know?
Something I ran into some years back, that designation is required by law! Worse than required by law, running tires without the designation could expose the manufacturer, the dealer, and maybe even the car owner, to legal liabilities if the tires are run on public roadways without the designation.
Now, I am not a lawyer, so take my comments with a grain of salt. But if a good friend of mine had some of those tires, I would encourage him to get them replaced quickly.
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A book that age was discussed awhile back on this forum. I believe the title was "The Red Car". I think there were a couple books of similar titles, a quick Google search found "The Red Car" by Don Stanford published originally in 1954. I think that was the book I read when I was in the fifth grade. The one I read had an older mechanic helping the boy restore an MG, and eventually racing it in a local contest.
I don't know if that is the one you are looking for or not.
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The "rims" are what the tire mounts on. The "wheel" is what is held onto the axle or spindles that rotates and the car rides upon. SOIMETIMES the "wheel" and the "rim" are one and the same thing. SOMETIMES they are two different pieces of the same general assembly.
A 1916 Ford T would have originally had "non-demountable" "clincher" type wheels which included the "clincher" rims. They would have had wooden felloes (fellies) that held the steel rims and wooden spokes together. Ford used that style exclusively through 1918. In 1919, demountable rim wheels were offered (standard on some body styles, optional on others). These had demountable steel "rims" that attached to steel "felloes" to make tire changing on the road a simpler task.
A lot of people prefer to have the later demountable wheels on their earlier model Ts, so if you go that route, you won't be alone.
As 1937hd45 mentioned, Ford used wheels from several different companies. They varied from one company to another, and some changes were also made over the years. Hayes wheels are fairly common, and often easiest to compile a matching set. Any of the four or five common sets are fine, as long as all four wheels and all five (or more?) rims match!
I used to have a link to a great thread on the different sets of wheels and how to tell them apart. However a partial meltdown of my computer several years ago lost it. I have spent some time looking for it, but have not found it again yet.
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Nice! Been a long time since I had access to a good machine like that!
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That is a great looking car! I think you and Phil should sing a round of Christmas songs while driving it in the next few days.
Sounds like you and family are doing a bit better health-wise? We want you all feeling fine!
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Bill Harrah Auctions - 1920 Stutz Roadster
in General Discussion
Posted
Yeah Bob. The lovely display upon graveled pads with room for a hundred people to walk around each car, a few marginally relevant pictures or items hanging on the walls. The cars themselves so close, yet somehow so far away. As beautiful as they are? They somehow don't even seem real.
You were there in August? My son and his girlfriend took me there to see the museum again on July 31 last year! It was a slightly belated birthday present for me. And I enjoyed it as I have a few times before.
However, I also saw the collection twice while William Harrah was still alive! I was still in high school at the time, once in 1968, the other I think was in 1969. There were over a thousand cars in the collection the first visit, and I believe the count was about 1800 cars in the collection on my second visit. We were visiting family in the area and wandered around the casinos, just looking at the cars on display there one day. And the next day we went out to Sparks Nevada where the real collection and shops were! We spent an hour, looking at just Franklin automobiles! One of nearly every series model Franklin ever built was on display, together in one corner of a huge building! Some of the Franklins were of course on display elsewhere, we had seen a couple of them at casino displays. On the other end of the building were more Packards than I can imagine anywhere else in the world! From a 1903 to a "Packardbaker" (last) were well represented. One building had rows of 1950s so-called classics and low production seldom heard of cars (we only spent a few minutes in there). Another was filled with grand prewar Classic Automobiles! In a corner of one building were about fifty model T Fords! Bill Harrah didn't snub the common cars.
The cars were fairly close together, but spaced well enough to get a good look down the sides, and see the back of the cars on the next isle. And the lighting was very good! No wondering what was hiding in the shadows there.
And we spent the better part of an hour walking along the workshops where we could watch the workers restoring cars. We got to speak with a couple of the workers. And we watched as they prepared a European late 1930s Classic for paint (the bodywork was incredibly well done!).
THAT was a collection!