wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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The Bebe Peugeot is an interesting piece of history. However, they are really little more than a footnote in that long history. Peugeot built some incredible cars in those early years! They placed high in international racing. But the Bebe was not one of those cars. They were an entry level any man's car. Maybe better than some of European competition in that entry level market, but entry level none the less.
They do have a connection to Ettore Bugatti! They were among a few marques that built small cars under license from Bugatti. His design was well done, the cars reasonably priced, and they drove well.
As hobby cars today, the Peugeot and Bugatti connections give them some special desirability. However, as a hobby car they are remarkably impractical. Because they are four cylinder engines, the cars do not qualify for most early one or two cylinder tours! They are too small and too slow to be useful for much else club activity wise.
I have seen a couple of them over the years. One is in the National Automobile Museum (William Harrah's collection) in Reno, Nevada. One was in a private collection I got to see years ago.
One great thing about them is that a person could consider keeping one in their living room. I knew a collector years ago that in addition to a building full of Packards (and a couple Pierce Arrows!) had a couple dozen antique motorcycles! He often joked that he had a few that his wife didn't know about hidden in closets in the house!
This car I think should be cleaned up and made running and usable while maintaining its remaining originality. The missing seat springs can be made and upholstered in material appropriate for an otherwise original car. But that is my opinion. I think it would look fantastic done that way!
I think these are wonderful! Interesting, and cute as a button! I love seeing them, and personally, if I had the wherewithal? I would love to have one!
I hope they get a good offer! And I hope the car gets someone that gives it the care and preservation it deserves.
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Those are really nice bumpers from the era! And matching front and rear sets are really tough to find!
I don't know what year Chrysler began offering bumpers as an option, or what those options may have been. Many automakers offered a few makes of bumpers as factory options, and sometimes the make of bumper might vary with the model of the car. Those Buckeye bumpers were among the best! And best looking.
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On 2/11/2023 at 2:43 AM, 30DodgePanel said:
Good shot of winter traffic scene in DC during this era (1913)
I don't know what the snazzy roadster is, but I like it!
The car ahead of it appears to be a model T Ford touring car with crowned rounded fenders and the three window/lights top. Those details date the car as a very late 1917 or later car.
So not 1913.Regardless 30DodgePanel, thank you for posting so many great photographs!
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Having any sort of work done on really antique automobiles is a matter of love for the cars, the history surrounding them, and the hobby! ANY work you pay someone that should be even allowed to TOUCH such a car will cost two to ten times any amount said work will increase the value of said antique automobile! Hiring anyone not truly familiar with working on these cars can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars to end up with something you cannot even get your original purchase price in return! (Seen it-DOZENS-of times!) Seriously! Anyone not in the hobby and truly familiar with pre 1930 automobiles usually does far more harm than good when tampering with them.
I like a lot of people on this website have been in this hobby for a long time. For many years, my advice to people asking about getting into the hobby has been to join a couple local clubs. Go to their meetings. Go to their tours, and other events. Get to know some of the people. Get to know some of the cars. ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS!
Then you might be able to figure out what you want for an antique automobile. What kind of car, what era car. You need to understand what YOU want from the car and the hobby!
If all you want is to fix it and flip it for a quick profit? Antique automobiles are one of the very WORST ways to go! Antique automobiles chew people up and spit them out! They break down. If you don't KNOW how to fix it yourself? Oldcarfudd aside (I have known him as a dedicated hobbyist through the HCCA for many years!), you are going to pay a bunch of money just to get back to where you were!
IF (big huge IF) you are given the car? There are several very good shops in the Northeast that are capable of sorting it out. A few of them are regulars on this forum. You MIGHT be able to get it fixed enough and running enough to make a tidy little profit. On the other hand? It is a crapshoot. If it turns out that the engine and driveline need to be fully rebuilt? THAT could cost twice what you would be able to sell it for once finished!
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Steel disc wheels had been around for many years. Especially in Europe where really good wheel spoke wood was in short supply. In the USA, wood spoke wheels remained popular for a long time, one, because they were strong and resilient as well as moderately cheap to manufacture and not requiring extremely expensive stamping equipment. And two because the USA had a million acres of second growth hickory, one of the best woods in the world for wheel spokes!
Several automakers in the USA were offering steel disc wheels during the 1910s. However, they didn't begin to really become popular until the early 1920s when quite a number of American cars began offering them.
Both of the cars in the photo appear to be early 1920s. The one with the steel disc wheels is likely the newest, and it could be as late as about 1924. I am not one of the best at identifying marques, and the picture is hiding too many details for me to make a good guess on either of them.
The cars are dirty (a common problem on dirt roads back then!), and appear to be a couple years old at most. I would guess the photo dates from about 1923 through 1927.
Clothing styles can often be used to help date photographs. However, common types of work clothing didn't change much for years. And outside of "fashion centers", basically any small town, even Sunday best often didn't keep up with the trends in New York, London, or Paris. A banker might buy three or four new suits per year, however the local merchant might buy only one every year or two.
Interesting photo! Good luck on your research.
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And, no, that is NOT a police spotlight!
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All this talk of rebodied chassis! I know of a re-chassised body! A Springfield (believed Silver Ghost?) Rolls Royce limousine purchased new, and less than two years old, the owner decided he wanted a sporty roadster on his chassis. So he sent it back to Springfield. they took the limousine body off and had a roadster custom built. So, what do you do with the body?
Supposedly, this has been verified. The body was worked over, the divider window removed, interior completely redone, and the body fitted onto a new PI chassis. All done by the factory, completed in 1926 or 1927.
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I shouldn't be posting at 2:30 am!
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17 hours ago, HK500 said:
'27 Cadillac - looks like on a hollywood soundstage farm - fame is fleeting, not sure who the person resting his foot on the runningboard is.
Well, I guess I can stick my neck out? (Maybe someone will chop it off?) I am just not sure. But my first impression at my first glance immediately said "Charles "Buddy" Rogers!"
I have never seen him in country folk clothes before, and don't recognize the outfit from any of his movies that I have seen. Between google and IMDb, I quickly scanned through more than three hundred photos of him, mostly pulled from his numerous film roles. I didn't find anything that says it isn't him, nor did I find anything to really say it is. A lot of the photos were profile, didn't help much. Most of the full face front photos do look like him, although, in most he isn't smiling as broadly as he is standing next to the Cadillac.
For those not familiar with him? Charles "Buddy" Rogers was quite an interesting man. Mostly remembered for a couple famous film roles (mostly "Wings" 1927, although I also very much enjoyed "My Best Girl" also 1927). He was fully a success at a young age. Besides being a successful actor, he was also a writer and director of films! A close friend of Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy, he wrote and directed for a few of their films among other works. He was a musician, professionally playing several instruments, a gifted singer (I have one of his 78rpm records!), and a band leader for quite a few years.
In the mid 1930s, he married Mary Pickford after her marriage to Douglas Fairbanks ended in divorce. Their marriage lasted over forty years until her death.
He was one of those rare personalities, gifted in many ways, early and long success doing what he enjoyed doing. And not being terribly spoiled and ruined by his success.
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Really good information 30DP!
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I sure like that Nash! I cannot afford it. Wish I could.
If it is nearly as nice as it looks, it would be a great nickel era car! If it runs as well as it looks? I think the price is very fair. The Nash those years were well known for reliability and relatively good speed.
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The two on your upper right hand side of the first photo look like Jaxon lugs. A lot of Jaxon wheel lugs had the Jaxon name cast into the outer (flip) side, but a lot of them didn't have the name on them. They could have been used on either steel disc wheels or wooden spoke wheels of the mid 1920s into the early 1930s. Jaxon wheel company was acquired by General Motors and their wheels were used on most GM marques. They came in many sizes and variations of wheels for different makes and models of cars. Those look too wide to fit the smaller cars, like Chevrolet or some Oldsmobiles. Without a proper size reference, it is difficult to guess with certainty. But they look too small for the larger truck wheels or big Cadillacs. I would guess the big Buicks?
The six alongside one side of the tape measure in the second photo MIGHT be a variation of the "loose lug" wheels used by Ford on the model T for a few years beginning in 1919. I say "MIGHT" be because most of those lugs that I have seen have similar off-size channel design, but with a flat surface rather than the dished surface for the lug-nut to set into. Design of those wheels did go through a few revisions. I think I recall hearing about some using cone style lug-nuts, but cannot say for certain.
Good luck!
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When I was born, my parents had a 1941 Chevrolet very much like this. Fifty years in this hobby, I have seen many 1941 Chevrolet cars. But never one so close to the one they had. Rarely see four door sedans like these in the first place. The hood ornament, and accessory rear bumper trunk guard are exactly like theirs! I have a lot of fond memories of that car, in spite of the fact it was getting old and a bit worn and tired at the time.
I have always wanted to get one like it. However, at this point in my life I don't think that will ever happen. IF I could afford it? I would actually consider this one. But I can't even come close now, so all I can do is dream.
I still remember the 1956 style license plate number from that car!
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Looks like a Nash dual ignition eight to me. And with an updraft carburetor, most likely no later than 1932.
I think those came in two sizes (big 8 and Small 8). I wouldn't know the difference between them.
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A "strata-various" pieces from various sources?
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That is SO bad, I like it.
I just hope you didn't really have an accident.
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It wasn't mine. And I wish I had some pictures.
Oh so many years ago, two of my (then and now!) best friends went together and bought a 1925 Pierce Arrow (model 33 I think?), big huge seven passenger sedan!
We all lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, the car was at a collector car dealership South of Los Angeles, about four hundred miles each way. Someone had gone to check the car out, and it was a basically solid original car that had spent some time in Mexico. It was running and driving okay, had a bad 1950s paint job, and not so great upholstery that didn't look too bad, provided you didn't look closely.
Car was purchased, arrangements made, they and I going along to help, headed down to get the car. Now, nobody we knew in those days (early 1970s) had a trailer big enough to carry this thing. So we went down hoping to drive the car home, but with ropes and chains and even a rented tow bar just in case! The three of us headed out near midnight in one of their's 1955 Chevrolet Cameo (fiberglass box) half ton pickup.
We arrived at the dealership at about eight in the morning, finding the dealer with the car outside "ready" and waiting for us. He says hello, and then proceeds to say "we wanted to help you out a bit, so we worked on the car some yesterday hoping to make it run better for you!"
So now, the car which two weeks before could run out and get onto the freeway, could barely make it to the end of the block on a closed street!
Okay. Tow-bar time! Still on the closed street behind the dealership, we turn the Pierce Arrow and the Cameo pickup around so that we are facing the correct direction for driving out, and hook them up. Having spent over an hour there now, we are in the midst of L.A.'s heavy traffic. We pull out of that street, begin turning onto a busy street and quickly find that the Cameo doesn't have a lot of say in where we are going! We only get a couple blocks, and decide that SOMEONE is going to have to ride in the Piece and steer it! I can't remember now who went first. But we all tried each position, with dubious results. Clearly, the issue wasn't us, the Pierce and the Cameo just didn't like being barred together. We finally settled in to who was most willing to handle what (neither one was mine, so I got the passenger seat in the Cameo (giving signals between the drivers)! We drove several miles across town on slower surface streets trying to get used to this big heavy thing, and finally feeling a bit more comfortable, and a stop and discussion, pulled up onto a freeway.
Well. THAT was "interesting"! Seriously? I don't scare easily. To this day I think that was the most frightening few minutes in all my life! We of course tried to stay in the right lane. However interchanges would add lanes to our right and then take lanes away. We had to change lanes over and then back fighting our way to get back into the new "right" lane. Even with me signaling, the two vehicles tied together was extremely sluggish! Cars were constantly shoving their way around us on both sides! We hadn't gone five miles and then it happened. How, (Thank you God!) it happened, I don't know. But the Pierce Arrow decided to change lanes on its own! Somehow, not only was there a newly added lane on our right? IT WAS EMPTY! Wherever it was going on the upcoming interchange, we went that way, and took the next exit.
Discussion time again. The senior partner in our youthful trio had been in the hobby a few more years than the other two of us. And he knew a few people living in the L.A. area. So a few phone calls were made, and a good friend of his who happened to be home that day volunteered his driveway.
As it turned out, in spite of the harrowing experiences so far that morning, it was a good thing that the dealer had messed up the car. We divided up the work, including properly changing the oil. Although we had been assured it was ready to be driven, that oil had obviously NOT been changed in DECADES! So, while I as the one with the most background in electrical tackled the ignition, the other two took care of the pan and oil.
The big model 1925 Pierce Arrow had dual ignition, with two distributors and fully independent systems. Both in TERRIBLE condition. So I sorted through it, bad as it was, and chose the best of all pieces to swap into one system. Both distributor caps were good. But only one rotor was any good at all. Only eight of the twelve wires looked decent. One coil was bad. The dealer had mixed up parts I don't know why? So that both systems were bad enough that one would BARELY run, and the other would not run it at all!
Once the oil pan and oil was taken care of, and my sorting of the ignition was waiting, we fired her up! What a sweet sound! As a longtime close friend used to say (he passed way too young about ten year ago and wasn't on this adventure), puckity puckity puckity VROOM puckity puckity puckity!
After a bit of discussion, we thanked our good friend for the use of his driveway, and drove on out and to a lube shop. After spending a few hours on the thing's mechanics, we KNEW it needed more lube! Up on the hoist, and the high pressure pumps do their thing! (This is important!!!)
Now, it is nearing late afternoon! And once again, we are on the road and heading North! Remember, none of us had had more than an hour or two sleep in 36 hours! Who drives what is as much a matter of who feels like they CAN drive what for awhile! Mostly, I allow the other two to drive the Pierce Arrow, as it IS their car, while I would take turns driving the Cameo pickup. So one is driving the Pierce, the other two of us are in the Cameo following, and all is going well for quite some distance. I am not thinking of the miles at that point, just enjoying making some distance and talking with my friend. Then the Pierce pulls off the freeway and off to the side of the surface street. We say "He must be getting tired or wanting to check something?" We all get out, and he says "Lost the brakes!" We say "What?" "The Pierce Arrow lost its brakes!"
Shoot.
Always one to dive right into anything, I climb down under the car. Look around a bit and shake a few things. Everything looks to be in order. Then something catches my eye. A clevis arm, on a cross shaft, is in the right place, or IS it? Something doesn't look right. Looking closer, the cross shaft has shifted, and the clevis arm is jambed against something on the chassis. Using a tire iron, I try to pry the cross shaft back into place. It won't budge! Then a light goes off in my head. The high pressure lube machine! Getting a small wrench out of the tool box, I remove the grease fitting on the errant cross shaft, and grease squirts out! Then, again using the tire iron, I pry the shaft back into its proper place with grease squirting out of the fitting hole! Keyways and keys hold the clevis arm in axial direction on the shaft. A rivet was supposed to keep the clevis arm from sliding off the end of the shaft. The high pressure from the grease machine had sheared the rivet and pushed the shaft sideways until the clevis arm came off the key! The fully equalizing brakes with one wheel disconnected effectively caused total service brake failure! With everything back where it belonged, the brakes were now functional again, but how to keep the clevis arm from vibrating off? I'm laying under the car, staring at the shaft and arm wondering how to keep it together? Maybe hose clamps? Bailing wire? (Always a model T'er at heart!) Maybe even tape would be safe enough for few hundred miles? One of my friends asks "Can you get the rivet out?" I am thinking NOT @@@@ likely! As he hands me a hammer and a big nail. "Give it a shot!" Lo and behold, It worked. All three sheared pieces of the rivet popped right out with ease! One large cotter pin through the rivet's holes and we were good to go!
It is beginning to get dark. And I am told it is my turn to drive. We are now only a short few miles from the famous Grapevine! In our discussion, should we try the freeway over the top? Or take the really slower low road? Everybody says to try the freeway, I add in I will make a stop at the bottom for a quick safety check before the climb.
We reach the bottom of the climb, I pull off into a safe spot to do a quick visual check. It is now fully dark! After everything looked good by flashlight, I walk over to the hood, turn the flashlight off, and lifted the hood. The sight to behold was BEAUTIFUL, and frightening! Like a fourth of July light show with lights running all around the ignition wires! I watched for a few seconds, slowly closed the hood. Then got in the car and began driving all the way to the top of the Grapevine! On the freeway! The car was running great!
The rest of the drive up to the San Francisco Bay Area went smoothly. However, the adventure wasn't quite over, yet. All that was Friday night, all day and night Saturday, and the wee hours of Sunday morning. And it just so happened that there was a scheduled Swap Meet that Sunday morning in San Francisco! We were pulling into Hayward, just before sunup! The car was running fine. None of us had had more than a few hours snoozing while riding in 48 hours now! So what are we to do? Drive the Pierce Arrow the forty miles to the Swap Meet of course! We arrived shortly after the gates opened, and the car, and our story, was the hit of the show!
Frankly, I don't remember much of that day after that. I remember us standing around, retelling the tale over and over again. I know I wandered around the swap and bought a few things for my model T. And, somehow, we got back home again.
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8 hours ago, ron hausmann said:
The blue one is a 1924 Kissel Victoria Coupe’. Possibly the ugliest Kissel ever made.
8 hours ago, ron hausmann said:I don't care what anybody says! I think that car is BEAUTIFIUL!
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I hope the F-350 owner has five million coverage!
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8 hours ago, Mark Wetherbee said:
Specifically the front fenders are 1915 style mounted with the 1914 style brackets.
I do not know when Ford began using those fenders, however both late production 1914 style open cars (which were produced well into April of 1915!) and early 1915 style closed and open cars were getting those odd fenders for several months!
The model transition that year for the model T is a long and complicated story, that hasn't been widely told.
Sadly, literally hundreds of late production 1914 style model Ts had their history erased by hobbyists during the 1950s through 1970s believing that their odd fenders and 1915 serial number engines were incorrect!
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6 hours ago, Fossil said:
I've never owned a Model T but I thought that in 1927 the T's came with wire wheels.
That is a subject given to a lot of debate. Some sales literature of the era actually does say that wire wheels were standard on the sedans, and some people think also the coupes like this car. However, sales literature was written by the sales departments, while actual manufacture and procurement of parts and materials had to be handled by other departments. Production of the new type of wire wheels couldn't keep up with demand, so in reality, they were for all practical purposes an option throughout the 1926 and 1927 model years. The open cars, roadsters and touring cars, offered optional demountable rim clincher wheels just like the early 1920s (30 X 3 1/2), and even non-demountable rim clinchers in 30 X 3 1/2 rears and 30 X 3 fronts similar to the brass era cars! Here again, some era sales literature and letters to dealers indicate that those options were to be eliminated. However, era photographs and sales records indicate that cars were being sold with those archaic options right up to the final weeks of production.
Not nearly perfect, but a nice looking "improved" era model T coupe!
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Just some minor consideration. Totally avoiding the politics involved.
About ten years ago, through a bizarre set of circumstances, I "met" one of the "children" of Hinkley California, the hexavalent chromium case made famous by the movie "Erin Brockovich".
Nasty stuff! The "child" was then of adult age, with the intellect of a lizard. Due to something happening involving a caretaker, it became necessary for me (as a school employee) to step in and watch over the person. It was very sad, and very interesting. I cannot say much more about the incident.
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1 hour ago, Grimy said:
Our friend still has, and drives, that Loco!
April 18 is soon upon us! Nearly time for his annual very early in the morning trek to the holy site. I have always wanted to join him for that morning run. With my family situation the way it is, I haven't been able to do that.
Hey there Grimy! I actually wrote this reply right after your posting! Then, moments before I could post it, some bone-brained druggy/drunk took out a power pole a mile from our house. It was over ten hours for PG&E to make repairs, four in the morning, before we had power and easy internet again. At least I got to try out our new generator for a few hours.
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I remember that Jack Passey had a Minerva. I did have to check his book to make sure of the year, a 1932 according to his book. I remember seeing it at his place a few times. One day he had it sitting outside in front of his shop, and I looked it over for some time. I also remember seeing it at a small Concours (Silverado if I recall correctly?). I don't remember if it was a limousine or large sedan? But it sure was beautiful! And mostly original as I recall?
Jack seemed to like the car!
I wish I had a photo of it to share.
Buckeye Deluxe Bumper
in What is it?
Posted
The bumper itself was painted black. The nickel pieces (about three feet centered on the two bumper bars) were just thin strips nickel plated and partially held in place by the clamps that attach the bumper bars to the chassis mounting brackets.
If you look closely at the photos, there are two little decorative bolts with tall oval heads placed midway between the center clamp and the bracket clamps nearer to the ends of the nickel strips on the bumper bars. These are painted black on 190bear's Chrysler, and nickel plated on Bob A's Buick. If I recall correctly, these also hold the nickel strips in place (with a nut on the backside of the bumper bar?). They keep the strips from working their way out and also help hold them together to make assembly onto the car easier.
I see these bumpers on a lot of Buick automobiles from the mid 1920s. Speculation, but they might have been a factory authorized after-market accessory for Buick. I have seen them on a lot of other cars as well. They were available for pretty much any car!