wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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I wish my Paige looked this nice. If I live long enough, maybe I can get get mine put together. This one looks like a very nice preservation vehicle.
Paige, and Jewett were among the hundreds of "also ran"s built in the '10s and 1920s. Paige had a rich and good history, and deserves to be remembered a lot more than they are. They turned a profit almost every year they were produced. This was a feat accomplished by only a few companies in those years where most producers went belly-up in under five years (and sometimes two or thee times). Paige was named the ninth largest producer of automobiles in America for one year. Another major accomplishment. Consider some the companies that beat them that year. Ford, all of General Motors, Chrysler, Dodge (then still separate), all of Willys Overland, all of Durant (including Star), Hudson/Essex. Off the top of my head? I do not know who number eight was.
Paige Detroit Motor Car Company sold out to the Graham Brothers only because Harry Jewett had made his third or fourth fortune and in his 60s, was well ready to retire. Since the company had flourished so well for so many years under his guidance, nobody in the company wanted to try to fill his shoes. Additional problems were that General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler were buying up a lot of the Detroit area supply and production companies, and Paige had suffered production delays for a couple years because the companies that supplied most of their parts were disappearing. The Graham Brothers had just benefited from a huge settlement from the sale of Dodge to Chrysler (through a couple other sale attempts that failed), but which they had owned a lot of stock in. The Graham Brothers had wanted to continue producing automobiles, a step up from the production of trucks in partnership with Dodge. Taking over Paige seemed like the perfect fit to them. For about two years.
Good luck with the sale of this car! I hope it gets a good caretaker. Sadly, I cannot be in the market to buy anything right now. Unless the owner wants to trade it for my model T coupe? (Not likely) And the shipping cost would probably kill it both ways.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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By the by, mtfca.com has been back up for a couple days now.
I was slow to add this update because for the past couple days, this site has been spammed by some international low-life. Apparently, the two issues were unrelated. To avoid crossing the no politics rules here, that is all I will say on that subject.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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Chris B is working on it. All I know is what I read on the mtfci forum and a few personal emails with the same basic information.
Apparently, one of the web host's servers was upgraded, and there became a compatibility problem with with our old system. This sort of thing can be common when an industry convinces itself that all change is good, whether it is needed or not.
No current estimates on being back up.
We will survive.
W2
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Well, I am sure it is not the BEST thing to use. And I am not familiar enough with a '35 Ford water-pump to speculate how well it would work with them. But on most of my earlier car's water-pumps, I use boat trailer wheel bearing grease. It is probably much better than anything that was available during the '10s and '20s. It is water resistant, and earlier pumps usually leak toward outside and therefore naturally reduce the coolant contamination.
It has always worked well on my '10s and '20s cars.
And it IS readily available at most auto parts houses.
W2
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I will just second most of the advice above.
Russ Furstnow did a fantastic job on the model T speedometer book! And much of the information is generic for most of the cars of the era.
Layden B knows his stuff better than most of the people I have ever met in this hobby. And he knows Stutz better than most also.
The Stutz club is a better group than most small production marques. I may not be able to afford to buy a radiator cap for one, but I know several people that have Stutz automobiles (early and later cars). I have read a number of their newsletters and marvel at them and the information and the help they give their members.
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Good word catch Carl La Fong!!!!!!
No, those are not clincher rims. They appear in the photos to be straight side split rims. Which is what most of the Jaxon steel wheels did in fact use.
2 more doors will want a split-rim jack to repair and/or change tires on the rims. While I can usually mount tires on the Ford 21 inch split rims using a couple tire irons and a few swift kicks from a solid boot on my foot. Jaxon, and some other era, split rims are a bit heavier steel, and really tough to do without a proper rim jack (although I have managed in a pinch).
A hopefully calming word of reassurance: These kind of split rims ARE NOT the kind that you hear about being dangerous and exploding or killing people.
By the way, since I have you here Carl La Fong, any relation to W C Fields?
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Check out the following link for some for sale on eBad. I think these are the ones you want, they are like the ones used on the 21 inch wheels I had on a car some years ago.
Note, I have no connection with those for sale (and personally feel that the price is too high). At least you can see some pictures of what I think you need for your wheels. You can decide what they are worth to you. I did have some wheels like yours, but sold them a long time ago. I had a set of 21 inch on a model T race car a few years ago. I know for certain that variations of the wheels were available in 21 inch, 20 inch, 19 inch, for different years of Chevrolet and other cars. I believe I have seen 18 inch on a truck once, and wheels from a Cadillac once (I don't know what year). But those used the wider lugs.
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Welcome to the affliction!
I am not an authority on the Chevrolet wheels, but I think the 20 inch disc wheels were very similar to the Jaxon steel disc wheels used in earlier years by Chevrolet. I don't have any pictures to show the lugs, but they are among the most common of that type, and readily available. The style lug did come in more than one size, larger ones are more difficult to find, and were used on a few large cars (like Cadillac) and some trucks (including some Chevrolet trucks). I believe that Jaxon Wheels was a subsidiary of General Motors at that time, but they had been an independent supplier. Variations of their steel disc wheels were offered as an option on most GM cars, and some trucks. They had also been used by non-GM car manufacturers.
The more common size lugs came cast both with and without the Jaxon name on them, a little larger than most other common lugs, and a distinctive shape make them easy to spot at swap meets, where they usually sell for about a buck apiece. They can also often be found on eBad.The lugs for these wheels do NOT have captive nuts.
W2
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Man that had to hurt, in lots of ways. Could be saved!? Or combined with a worse car and save one.
Too far from me, and I already have too many projects.
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I am not a Brush expert, but have looked at a few of them. Cannot tell a lot from the photos, but it appears to maybe be a 1912 Liberty model Brush. The motor looks to be the later iron crankcase version.
The Brush automobile was a victim of Benjamin Briscoe's wheeling and dealings. Forced liquidation put the profitable subsidiary out of business. There were several variations of the last models using outdated fenders, no running boards, and several different radiators (some were brass, some steel and painted), to finish off uncompleted cars. They were likely doomed anyway, as Ford's price for the model T was dropping fast, and the Brush was an archaic design by 1910. The Liberty models look more like cars from about 1907. They are fairly popular with the one and two cylinder early car crowd.
Alanson P Brush, himself, was a notable automotive designer, responsible for many patents and innovations from the beginning through the '20s.
A rich history, and nice early cars!
Good luck!
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Trimacar, Nice pumps! The Bibendum is a great piece. I never really got into that sort of automobilia, but that one I can really appreciate.
The other one you show also looks very interesting.
A lot of home use air compressors were made out of refrigeration pumps. The problem with them is that they circulate some amount of oil within the compressed air. Not really good for paint or tires.
I have the air compressor that belonged to my grandfather. It is valuable to me because of the family history. But in spite if the neat tank and and iron wheels, it is not really a valuable antique because it is a little bit like George Washington's axe. Both the motor and the pump were replaced from Sears probably in the 1950s, and clearly much newer than the rest of it. I love it because it was granpa's, and it works great. I dropped the pressure cut-off switch from 120 psi down to 90 psi because the tank is probably 100 years old. Still enough to fill the tires on my '24 coupe and the other model Ts. Besides, if you don't look real close, it still looks like 100 years old.
mrcvs,
How about posting some pictures of your car! I know several people that have Maxwells, from 1906 on up to 1924. I know a couple people that have 1916/'17s. Nice cars.
W2
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Just now reading this. A couple points I did not see mentioned.
Powered air compressors have been around for a long time. But the idea that the average person would have one is fairly recent. Basically the past half century. In the '10s and early '20s, most gasoline was not even bought at gasoline stations. They didn't become common until the mid or late '20s. Before that, most gasoline was bought at general, hardware, or drug, stores. SOME of them had a curb-side dispenser outside. Some of them had inside dispensers that had to be pumped into gasoline cans, then carried out and poured into the car's tank. The '15 Studebaker I used to have had a gasoline tank mounted in the cowl, and filled from the front seat. This was actually done by many cars at the time, including many very expensive cars. As gasoline tanks moved from under the inconvenient front seat, many cars made them fill-able by sitting in the front seat by carrying the can from inside the store, and resting your elbow on your knee to hold it. I have actually done this, several times. Much easier than standing there holding a can. Anyone with such a car or truck should try it at east once just to see what I mean.
Many stores that dispensed gasoline also provided air from a compressor, even in the early days.
As for tire pumps. In those days, almost everyone had a hand tire pump, due in part to the bicycle craze that began slightly before automobiles became common. Bicycles also used high pressure tires, and tire pumps were well made, and did not generally fall apart. Mother was sometimes enlisted to help with pumping up the tire, as tire pumps used the same muscles as laundry wash-boards.
Yes, it did take awhile to pump up automobile tires. They required a lot more volume than bicycles did. Although two and three stage tire pumps did help? They didn't help much. The amount of muscle use required for the higher volume multi-stage pumps was still the same for an automobile tire as the easier to pump smaller single stage pump. (Ever USED one of those multi staged pumps??? Some of them you have to PULL UP!!!) They are killers!
Many cars sold new including some tools, which sometimes included a tire pump. Some cars did not include a tire pump with the purchase, but dealers sometimes threw them in in order to close the deal. People have always liked thinking they were getting something for free.
Clincher tires like used on model T Fords and '10s Maxwells should NOT be run even a block or two even at lower speed even a few pounds psi low. They REQUIRE almost 50 psi to prevent rolling, acceleration, power, or braking, from trying to rotate the tire on the rim. Even 100 feet could slip a tire enough to damage the valve stem and result in a flat tire. Which could occur immediately, or a year later after you forgot about driving that block. THAT is one of the few things I had to learn the HARD way in my life.
I don't know about many parts of the country. But around a lot of Califunny, you cannot rely on stores or gasoline stations to provide air for your antiques. Many of them have lousy little pumps that cannot exceed about 30 psi. I cannot even top off the tires on my 2001 Expedition about half the places I have tried the past several years..
When I was MUCH younger (in high school), I once filled a 20 inch high pressure big truck tire with a bicycle tire pump. 60psi. Now, THAT was a workout!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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The really sad thing is, that with a little encouragement, this remains of a car could maybe be paired up with a chassis with only a remains of a body that could be restored as a decent car. The cost to restore such a car would be prohibitive. The value therefore for this part of a car really is almost nothing in terms of sell-able dollar value. Too many people get "star-struck" (or more properly, "dollar"-struck) thinking they can turn a quick big profit on some pile of remains they can haul out of the back country somewhere. This IS a hobby for most of us.
I have personally restored nearly a dozen cars in my lifetime. Most of them model Ts, one model A, and a few non-Fords. A few of the cars I restored, I got in good enough condition that someone else probably would have gotten it and restored it if I hadn't. But more than half of the cars I have restored would most likely have NEVER been restored had I not been crazy enough to do most of the work on them myself.
This (actually a coupe) body may be restore-able. Most of the cars I have restored were worse than that when I got them. The 1915 Ford runabout I am nearing half done working on was worse than that.
Part of this hobby SHOULD be trying to get restore-able parts to cars that need them and helping others restore their projects.
Just my short rant on the state of the world today.
W2
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The basic truth is that nearly all the clincher tires are made by the same sub-contractors, I think currently still in Vietnam. I think most of them are made for Coker, regardless of who is selling them, and they have been trying to fix this problem. I haven't had to buy new tires for about ten years, but heard about a year ago that they "hope" the cracking problem was resolved. I have not heard anything definitive since. Since 30X3 were used on the front wheels of brass era Ts, this question is asked a lot in model T circles.
Many people say the basic treaded "driver" tires are the best value. A bit cheaper, and wear about as well. Some of us prefer the somewhat more authentic tread or better for early cars smooth tires and just live with the added cost. (Me? I am too broke to buy any right now, and have enough older tires hoarded away to keep me on the road for a few years yet.)
I am not sure where the white and gray tires stand right now. They were unavailable for awhile (I like the gray smoothies myself). Best to probably just call Coker and ask. They are good people, and actual Horseless Carriage owners, members, and tourers.
W2
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I hope I am not steering you wrong. I am not familiar with the Remy magnetos, but Bosch and several others I have worked on use a points housing with two (sort of inside-out) cams inside the housing. The distributor is run by a gear off of the armature. On four cylinder cars, two cylinders are run by one internal cam, the other two cylinders are run by the other internal cam. With a six cylinder car, there are three cylinders run off each internal cam.
If you lost two cylinders, alternately fired by one single cam, it is likely the problem lies with that cam and/or the point's adjustment relative to it. It could be as simple as either opening or closing the points gap a couple thousandths. I did once see a magneto where one of the cams came loose and fell out of place.
Again, I am not familiar with Remy magnetos specifically. But when I read your question, this was the first thing that came to my mind.
Good luck!
W2
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Ford varied from year to year, but "model year" usually started between early August and late September. It is usually attributed to the date of manufacture, which can be pretty well nailed down by the engine number which likely should be on the paperwork. A car sold at the end of November '17 likely would be considered a 1918 "model". It could of course be a true '17 model if it had sat around long enough. Again engine serial number would clear that up somewhat.
Ford made continuous running changes throughout the model T years. There are numerous minor changes that separate an early '17 from a late '17. There are several things to separate an early '18 from a late '18. A late '17 and an early '18 are virtually identical.
As far as license and registration go, it becomes even more confusing. Many states at the at time, did not register or license cars at all. Those that did, rules varied widely from state to state. A car sold and first licensed late in the year, in some states would be registered by the calendar year, not the model year. Many states would not require registration until years later, and a car might be registered by whatever year the owner thought to call it. Those are some of the reasons for confusion on the year of cars a hundred years later.
Any original sales records or receipts for a car that far back is a great bit of automobilia. Nice find!
W2
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Many years ago, I met a fellow that swore absolutely that there were only seven Studebaker duplex phaetons left in the world. And he owned two of them. I saw his cars, one nice original, one rough but restorable. But seven in the world? I didn't believe him for a second. I knew of a couple others myself. Since then? I have seen several more. If he was right about how many there are left? I would have seen all of them by now.
Some people are funny about such ideas. The only ones that exist in the world are the handful that they have seen.
I find it interesting. I personally know five people that own a Locomobile Sportif (a sporty model Touring car). Some years back, three of the fellows I know plus two I did not know wound up on a tour together with their Sportifs. They tell me that there are seventeen Sportifs known in the world. On that one tour, were five of the known Sportifs. Interestingly enough, two other owners of Sportifs were also on that tour, but driving other cars. Seven of seventeen owners were on that one tour. Likely? No, but it happened.
Pontiac division founded in 1926 I think with 1927 being the first model Year? As a companion car to the well established Oakland, it did well, but should be a fairly rare car. Is yours a folding or fixed landau sedan? Folding landau sedans are quite rare in American makes of cars, with the exception of Chevrolet who built many of them from '28 to "30 for some reason. 1929s alone, I have personally seen at least four of them. On eBad I have seen at least four different ones, also '29s. I personally have looked closely at a 1928 four cylinder folding landau, and a 1930 Chevrolet folding landau, somewhat different than a '29. But other than Chevrolet, that body style seems fairly rare. There are a number of big classics in that style.
The fixed landau four-door sedan was a common body style for a lot of marques. I have seen a dozen such Buicks, several Chevrolets, Studebakers, REO, Stearns Knight (nice car!), Auburns, Locomobiles, and on and on. The style was common from about 1925 through 1931.
Many yeas ago, a good friend of mine even had a 1927 (I think?) Oakland landau sedan. It also was a nice riding car!
Generally speaking? There are more antique automobiles "out there" than we realize. Most cars we have? We would be surprised at how many very similar to it there are. The 1924 model T Ford coupe I have? I wonder how many hundreds of them there are? The 1927 Paige 6-45 four-door sedan I have? It is the most common Paige model and body style surviving. I have personally seen six of them in various stages of condition. There must be a couple dozen more "out there". That for a marque that is fairly rare itself.
vintagemc313, Any chance we can see pictures of your car? It may be a basket case, but we still like to see interesting cars. Regardless whether there are ten or a hundred of them like yours, a first year Pontiac is an interesting car.
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Chris B,
About time you put that car up as your avatar!
I am glad you made it all the way home. And thank you for being an inspiration to the rest of us!
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That is just so neat looking!
I have always been a Buster Keaton fan! Seen quite a few of his movies. But I never saw that thing in one.
Anybody know what film it may have been from?
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34 inch tires will be an old style measurement of the outside to outside original tire measure. Except for certain types of high pressure tires used on earlier cars, most tires today, even for cars back to the mid 1920s are measured by the rim size, even though some of the original literature, and some very old tires will still have the old measure size.
A 34X6 (34 by 6 common tire-size-speak) outside measure tire would be the equivalent of a 22X6 (22 by 6 as commonly stated in tire-size-speak) rim size measure. Or put another way, 22 inch rim size, plus 6 (6 is the tire part of the tire) times 2 for the top and the bottom of the tire itself equals 34. OR, mathematically put, 34-(6X2)=22, and 22+(2X6)=34.
It would be so much easier if I could just draw a picture on a computer (I am not that good with computers). If I lost you completely forget all that, and read on.
Under any conditions, a 34 inch measurement would be very odd for a 1928ish Buick, it could be a 34X7 or 34X6.5, but those are not a common given size. Many Buicks did use tires with a variety of 34 inch outside measurements. But they would generally be much earlier, like 1909 through about 1922 (maybe even a little later). Different years and different models of Buick would have been slightly different sizes. A 34X4 would use a 26 inch rim. A 34X4 1/2 (I prefer the non-common-tire-speak variation stated as 34X4.5 because it translates more easily onto a typed page) translates to a 25 inch rim. A 34X5 tire would use a 24 inch rim. Any of those could be found on some earlier model Buick.
Buicks from about 1926 through about 1931 used rim sizes as large as 21 inch, down through 20 inch, 19 inch, and I think 18 inch. Buick along with the majority of the automotive industry was switching from the earlier high pressure type tires to balloon type lower pressure tires in the early to mid '20s. High pressure tires included both the clincher type and straight side type tires, as well as a few other odd by today's standard types like tubeless and bolt-on. Balloon tires are generally always straight side.
Photos of your wheels will help a lot. A clarification of the tire size (and the exact rim size) would also help. The rim size is measured by where the innermost part of the tire bead sits on the rim when all is mounted and aired up.
Good luck! (You may need it now that I have totally confused you?)
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The Reynold's collection used to be in Canada. I believe that they had a tobacco connection.
I sold a car to them along about before 1980. I really did not want to sell it, but needed the money for children's medical bills. I have often wondered what ever became of the car. It was in poor condition, however extremely rare. I think they were eager to get it because it was something Bill Harrah did not even have (truthfully, there were a lot of cars he did not have). He died shortly after they got the car. I do hope that they restored the car, because the car deserved to be restored by someone that had the money to do it properly. I would hate to find out that they never restored the car. Or worse, lost it.
Good luck on your quest!
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Congratulations! For what it is worth, about fifteen years ago, I saw a Tourist on a HCCA regional group one and two cylinder tour in Califunny. I forget where it was held. I do not know what model it was, but for a two cylinder, it was a rather substantial car! It was also beautifully restored, and I do not know who owned it. I wish you the best of luck restoring this car! It has great potential and should be a joy to own and drive.
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You should see the list of minuses I have looking for "Paige" stuff. I have a 1927 Paige 6-45, but like to see other things connected with the car company. Some of the stuff that shows up is disgusting. What with books, magazine ads, and dealer collectibles, narrowing down simply by category is not easy either. Stupid eBad's search parameters keep reinstating categories like clothing that I do try to eliminate. I have rewritten my parameters a dozen times. Then they change something, and I try to rewrite them again. I have complained to eBad about it, but never gotten a genuine response (I hate automated responses, they never have anything whatsoever to do with my question!)
Sorry for my rant. But do you have any idea how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of clothing items sometimes show up?!??. Usually, I do my usual restrictive search in all categories, then go through category by category that sometimes has something of actual interest (like old books, collectibles, and even entertainment memorabilia occasionally have Paige automobile stuff NOT found in eBad Motors)
Oh well.
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I should have bought the book years ago. But never did. It may go up in price now. I never had enough money for the cars I wanted, and although I have about a hundred antique automobile books (and a few hundred other collectible books), I always seem to put off buying books trying to put my money into cars instead. Jack's book, and Carl Pate's early Ford book have been on my Santa Claus list for years, but I am still waiting for them. Just to be clear. I have never met Carl Pate.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Selling my cars dodge 1923 model t 1919 holesman 1904
in General Discussion
Posted
I am not enough of an expert on this, but I would have some doubt about the Holsman qualifying for the London to Brighton Run. The British VMCC is much more strict than the USA automobile clubs, and require very strict vehicle dating. Holsman is one of the very few USA built high-wheeler automobiles that was manufactured early enough to maybe qualify for VMCC dating. Most high-wheel type cars built in the USA did not begin production until after the January '05 requirement of the VMCC. Most high-wheel cars in the USA were built to be sold in out country areas where roads were few, and usually in very poor condition. Their high wheels made them a bit more practical for the farmers in those areas, and also appealed to them by resembling the horse-drawn carriages that they were used to. While Holsman did begin production about 1902, most of the survivors are between 1906 and 1909 built cars.
Dozens of companies built high-wheel cars between 1907 and 1912. Their low price, coupled with their practicality, helped their sales. But improving road conditions, along with the popularity of Ford's model T cut into the high-wheel automobile market. Holsman was one of only a few high-wheel cars manufactured in any sort of large numbers that was built early enough to qualify for the London to Brighton Run. You would need to check with the VMCC to have the car properly dated and accepted. Acceptance by them would add somewhat to the value of the car.
Regardless, the Holsman is a very interesting car, as well as an unusual body style. I wish I could be in the market for one. More pictures of it would be nice to see however.
W2