wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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Yes, definitely need better pictures. The wheels confuse the issue quite a bit. Are they in any real way a part of this chassis?
It looks as though the front axle may swing from a center point for steering? Is that the way it is? If it does swing from the center, that does not totally rule out horseless carriage, but it nearly does. Horse-drawn carriages almost always steered by swinging the front axle from a center point. This worked for them because the rigging was attached to the horse which in return anchored the axle to follow the horse. Simple steering connected to a swinging axle was tried several times in the earliest horseless carriages. However it was quickly discovered that it was a very bad idea for them because without the horse to hold the axle forward ahead, one wheel would hit a pothole, or even a small rock, causing that wheel to stop and swing the axle for a wild dart to the right or left. It was found very early that the wheels had to steer from kingpins out near the ends of the front axle. (If I recall correctly, even the Duryeas may have made that discovery with their first car attempt in 1893) ( Or am I thinking of Black's first attempt, or both?)
If the steering is on a fixed axle, steering out near the ends? How is the axle made? How is it attached? Many horse-drawn carriages were modified into horseless carriages, some by modifying the horse-drawn axles, some by replacing the axles with something else. Some of these were done back in the early horseless carriage era, many of them were done decades later in an attempt to make a horseless carriage parade vehicle. Generally speaking, such modified carriages done much after the original horseless carriage era are not considered valuable. (There is an argument that such things built back in the '50s and '60s or earlier maybe should be considered antiques in their own right. But they cannot be considered as original horseless carriage era vehicles.)
The steel seat skin looks like one that was used by several carriage manufacturers after 1900, and at least into the 1920s. They have been used on several model T (and other) speedsters, as well as at least a few times on re-bodied horseless carriages. They may have been used on a few early cars, but I have never seen one that was. So that, I won't say that I know. (Again, if I recall correctly, I saw one such seat on a one cylinder Cadillac, but it was definitely not original to the car.)
The real answer as to what this is lies in details that cannot be seen in these photos. Many early horseless carriages were made by copying how horse-drawn carriages were built. For this reason, some of them did use cross-ways front springs like were common on horse-drawn carriages.
So again, better pictures if you can. Then one of us can tell you more for certain.
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Before throwing stuff like that away, I would give it to someone that regularly sells similar stuff at swap meets. I have done that with things before.
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As I stated on the question thread under general discussions, I think they are Studebaker, about 1915 to maybe '17.
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I am not 100 percent sure (I should be, I used to have one), I am fairly sure they are Studebaker 7-passenger touring seats from about 1915 to maybe '17. They were fairly famous for their fold-flat-into-the-floor jump seats. They varied from one year to the next a little bit, and I don't recall the specifics off hand. It should not be difficult to find a Studebaker owner that could make good use of them.
Posting good pictures on the Studebaker threads should help pin them down. Stating where you/they are located without having to follow links usually helps find people interested also.
Good luck!
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"Actually broken"? That IS interesting.
I do have to say that there are repair options that should be highly advised against. A few years ago, I was considering making a short piece and welding it onto a ring that was too small but otherwise fit really well. Fortunately, I found a truly proper ring and did not need to do that.
I was taught early to "NEVER STRAIGHTEN A BENT OR TWISTED RING". But if antique cars are going to be maintained and driven occasionally? Damaged rings will have to be repaired and straightened for some of them. I have straightened several myself. I expect to have to straighten a few more. If I can't find what I need for my son's car, I am even considering a way of making the three we need for it.
Any sort of welding or heating of rings should be done by someone with a little more than average welding and metallurgical background.
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When the production of civilian vehicles was ended for the war effort, the remaining completed supply was divided up and warehoused. One portion was set aside for military use, and painted as such. Another large group of cars and standard duty trucks were set aside for civilian use, to be rationed out for the duration of the war.
My grandfather was a farmer raising (he never said growing, you "raised" peaches) about a hundred acres of peaches. These were sold for canning and sent overseas for our military as well as rationed into civilian markets. They were about ten miles out of town on rough roads (by today's standards) and in 1944, the '30s Buick he had been nursing along before the war finally gave out. He needed to have reliable transportation to and from town on a regular basis, and the old truck wasn't up to the task and was needed for truck duty besides. So he had to apply to the rations board, but was granted permission to buy a brand new 1942 Oldsmobile. It was licensed as a 1944 automobile. I really wish I could have that car today.
I have never seen real figures on how many vehicles were set aside. My guess would be that right after the Pearl Harbor attack. the factories probably ran near capacity for the two months before they shut the lines down to make the full switch to wartime production. My guess would be that a few tens of thousand cars and trucks were set aside and doled out over the next five years. Remember, only a small number of cars were produced in 1946 after the war ended late in '45. It took almost a year to get everything switched back and moving again.
Another consideration on your truck. Many years ago, I saw a similar Chevrolet or GMC flatbed truck that the owner claimed was a wartime new truck. My dad looked at it and recognized something unusual in the wiring on the engine's firewall. I wish I could remember what it was, but he said it was something to do with wartime production.
Hopefully my little brain-freeze can trigger someone else more familiar with these to post something about it.
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I haven't seen the ad for that Pope Hartford? But it does sound over priced, unless it is the Portola Roadster. And even then, I would expect it to be one of the few real ones, not a couple of recreations I know are out there. I am NOT and expert or appraiser, but I would expect a Pope Hartford touring to be between $120K and $175K.
I do know a few top three percent people, why they even speak to me? I may never figure out. Actually they are very nice people that happen to love antique automobiles as much as I do.
As for me? I am broke. Life did not treat me very well. Well educated, but no degrees. I worked hard and did good work most of my life. I struggled to get every antique car I ever had, and unfortunately was not able to hang onto any of the ones I wanted most to keep. A good income was no match for family troubles and illnesses. On the other hand. I still have three tourable model Ts, one a brass era car. I have two other early car projects I hope to get back to working on (one a high-wheel horseless carriage). I can have almost as much fun on a tour with a 1915 Ford runabout as I ever did with the 1915 Studebaker I used to have (and I really loved that Studebaker!). I may never get to own another Pierce Arrow (it was a '25 series 80 sedan). Then again, maybe I can yet finish the restoration of the 1927 Paige sedan that my dad started over fifty years ago and never finished.
It is all about the cars, and the special connection they can provide us with to our great history! It is about the passion for that history and its cars! We all have to make choices. Anyone of average means can get and enjoy a decent car to fit in with most areas of the hobby or the major clubs. $5000 to $10000 can get a really good start into either the HCCA brass era or CCCA full classic automobile. These cars would likely be older restorations and need a fair amount of attention. But both of those clubs are high end and you could often find yourself touring alongside cars worth a quarter million or more. And your old Studebaker makes you part of the fun.
If you are a bit better off. $30K to $50K can get some really nice cars in almost every major sub area or group in the hobby, other than some really big buck Marque specific clubs. Even there, the lower end Locomobile or Marmon can be had for under $20K (right now on eBad), and you still get to park next to the quarter million dollar Sportiff. The safety Stutzs of the late '20s can be had, and are still a Stutz and a full Classic.
So enjoy the hobby, at whatever level you can justify affording. And who knows? Maybe your wife would learn to like hobnobbing with the "Really Rich"! (Just don't count on them buying lunch for you.)
Drive carefully, and do enjoy! W2
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It is not so widely known outside the motel T Ford historians community, but even Ford before about 1920 bought most of their bodies from outside sources. Even my '24 T coupe has a body built by someone else, although Ford built most touring and runabout bodies in house by that time. The number of different companies supplying bodies to Ford varied from year to year, however prior to 1917, most years there were between about three and six different body sources. Remember, this is Ford. They prided themselves on being self-reliant, and when historians of the '50s and '60s started saying that everything for the model T was built "in-house"? Ford didn't object. Fisher body company, best known later as a division of General Motors became a huge company by being one of the larger suppliers to Ford starting about 1909. They built many of the early sedans and coupes into the mid '20s, as well as early touring and runabout bodies.
In the earlier years almost all automobile manufacturers had many of their bodies built by an outside body builder. This would be especially true for unusual bodies like coupes or sedans prior to the 1920s.
It could actually be very difficult to determine what chassis that body was on originally without literally comparing the mounting bolts and their locations to many different original chassis. Another consideration, would be how flat the body sits on the bottom. Many chassis have a step up over the rear end. And that step up could be a fitting issue. The good thing is, that although there may have been some variation with trim and dash or gasoline tank locations, many of these bodies were only slightly different between similar size cars of the era. Some good photos of the inside of the body especially around the dash area, could maybe help a lot to identify what it was on.
That is an incredible body. I do hope it finds its way onto some proper era chassis, whether Chandler, Studebaker, White, or any one of a dozen appropriate mid-size cars. Very few good original sedans survive from the '10s era. I do think I heard of a '17 Studebaker center-door sedan surviving some years ago. However I have no idea what ever became of it. A good '17ish Studebaker six chassis should not be too difficult to acquire, I have seen a few over the years.
Well restored, that could be a wonderful car. Even if it winds up on a different-than-originally marque chassis, it would be fantastic. I would not consider putting it on a chassis later than 1919. The center-door body style was effectively dead in the market place by then (although Ford continued trying to sell them until 1923).
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Thank you Machinist_Bill. My hope of course is that the antique automobiles I care about can be maintained as the pieces of history they are (with their proper original type wheels) and that people are not hurt in the process because they can be informed of a serious potential risk.
My opinion is that this is one of the areas in life where intelligence and education are the solution, not hiding from the problem by ignoring it or throwing it away.
R.White, I imagine it is the snap "ring" that you are referring to as "broken"? My guess is that it is just slightly over three inches short. That would be the mathematical equivalent of a one inch smaller diameter wheel. Someone in the car's (wheel's?) past has probably replaced a bent or otherwise damaged or lost ring with one from a one inch smaller wheel.
While one could maybe get away with it, it is not good advice to run a wheel with a ring that is too short by about three inches. So you should try to find a ring that fits correctly. Rings commonly came in diameter sizes all the way from 14 inch clear up to around 30 inch rim size (not to be confused with the tire's outside size). A model T Ford's 30X3.5 tire for instance is a 23 inch rim size. Many larger Horseless Carriages used 34X4 (26 inch rim size) with some using even larger sizes. Farm implements go even larger. 19, 20, 21, and 23 inch rim sizes are very common for automobiles of the 1920s. 18 and 22 inch rim sizes were around, but fairly rare (I am well aware of the rarity of 22 inch as I used to have a '25 Pierce Arrow series 80 that used them). Almost every inch size was used by someone, as well as a few odd in-between sizes.
Beyond the diameter or circumference size of the ring, there are numerous other factors for a proper fit. These things should be evaluated by someone with a proper background. Basically, these are matters of size and shape of the ring and how it fits into the groove in the wheel/rim. Not only the depth and width of the groove, but the angles of how it fits into the groove must be considered.
Finding good rings is getting difficult. Too many have been thrown away for many years, out of fear. Also, a lot of people that do have them do not want to take them to swap meets out of fear of responsibility if they sell them. So ask around. If you find one that is the correct size, and the fit is really good, you probably made a good find.
Good luck! And do be careful.
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R.White, et al,
First, your Dodge Brothers rims can be done with simple tools, and almost anyone with some basic mechanical experience can repair or change a tire with these rims AS LONG AS they are informed enough to take the safety precautions. More at the bottom.
First, a bit more about different rims and tools:
As I mentioned in my first reply, there are many, many, different variations of two, three, even four or more, part split rims. Some of them, like my dad's '68 Chevrolet 3/4 ton PU actually require a very special rim/ring tool. While it is little more than a glorified screw-driver, the angles, spacing, and general shape of the off-sets are critical. My understanding is that there are about ten different versions of the tool, each for specific different wheels. I have two of them, including the correct one for my dad's truck as he bought the right one shortly after he bought the used truck almost forty years ago. With the correct rim/ring tool, the rims for his truck are difficult to do. Without the correct tool, they are VERY difficult to do, but can be done. I did it for him once when he had "misplaced" the tool. Two big screwdrivers and a small hammer, it can be done. However, those rings are not cut anywhere, and have an almost "secret handshake" to being removed or put back together. It is also VERY difficult to explain.
However! Most two (+?) part rings are cut and/or split like you can see in the truck rim picture posted by stakeside.
A couple of comments about that photo. While it does a good job of showing the ring, about halfway off the rim, it also shows something that you DO NOT want to see. Even partway on the rim, the two ends of the ring should almost (not quite) line up with each other. When the ring is completely off the rim, the ends may offset maybe an inch, but otherwise it needs to be almost totally flat, the ends should almost touch each other. That ring appears to likely have a bit of a twist in it.
The good news is, that although old-school teaching always said "Buy a new one!" They actually are fairly easy to straighten. Which is a very good thing, because nobody wants to make them these days for liability reasons, and they are becoming very difficult to find replacements (in fact, I need some 23 inch ones for my son's car). The fact that there are dozens of variations doesn't help any.
Those of us that like them and are familiar with working with these rings more and more would appreciate people not throwing them out just because they are slightly bent or damaged.
While there are many variations, the Budd and similar type two-part wheels like the Dodge Brothers company used tend to be fairly easy to work with.
Removing a tire:
When a tire is aired up, the pressure inside pushes the tire bead VERY tightly against the ring. Most, not all, rings have an edge (or shelf) that the tire bead then sits on top of. So the first thing you must do, is try to slide the tire bead over (in) a little bit. A tire bead breaker is nice, but most people do not have one. How difficult this task is depends on a lot of factors. How rusty or clean is the rim? How old or new or hard is the tire? How tight-fitting is the tire on the rim. Hard, old, tires and rusty rims are a nasty combination. Sometimes, all you can do is carefully cut the tire off.
Provided the tire bead is not rust-welded onto the rim, usually the bead can be moved over with a bit of effort. Often, it helps if you can lay the tire and rim flat on a good hard surface, then walk around the sidewall for awhile (a couple minutes at most), keeping your foot tight against the ring (sometimes, that alone will do the job, otherwise it usually helps to loosen the bead a bit). Do be careful walking around the sidewall! It is a bit like walking a tight-rope while someone else is pulling it to the side. A common antique (or motorcycle) tire iron can usually be slipped between the ring and the tire bead. Often, that itself can pry the bead over enough. Oddly, although it is a bit counter-intuitive? Two tire irons close together, one pry down, the other, pry up, can persuade a stubborn tire bead. If you do not have actual tire irons available? A couple large flat blade screw drivers usually can do the job. Something else that works really well, that a lot of antique car people have but likely didn't think of? An old, extra, tapered-end spring leaf makes a really good tire iron (oops, I just let out a valuable secret!).
Once the tire bead has been moved over enough for the edge of the ring to slip by, removing the ring is the proverbial piece of cake. Most (not all) rings have a notch on one end of the "cut". If you enlarge stakeside's truck wheel photo, you should be able to see the notch in the raised free end of the ring. Working under that notch, with either a screwdriver or a tire iron, pry the end up a bit, then work another screwdriver or tire iron under the ring itself. DO NOT pry hard! Prying on the rings is the number one reason most rings become bent. Instead, once you raise the end of the ring a bit? Tap on the ring lightly with a small to medium hammer. Do not hit it hard (you shouldn't even be able to see a mark in the steel). With a little pry pressure, it is the vibration from the hammer tapping that will allow the ring to slowly lift and move to the outer side. Once you get about five to eight inches of the ring lifted out of the groove, and moved over just enough to hook on the outer edge, just work your way slowly around the ring with the tire irons (or screwdrivers), tapping lightly with the hammer if needed.
Once the ring is removed. Depending upon the specifics of the various rims/wheels? Getting the tire to slip off may be anywhere from very easy to rather tricky. Usually, not terribly difficult. You may have to pry the bead off from the other side (just more fun to look forward to).
The first couple you do? You will probably hate my guts for talking you into it. After a few times, they aren't much worse than fixing a bicycle tire.
After removing the tire, putting it back together is really easy. The tire usually slips right on. The ring (provided it is properly straight and fits the way it is supposed to) can sometimes be pushed on with your fingers (do be careful of those fingers, though, the rings can pinch nasty) (I also sometimes push them on by hitting them with the heal of my hand). If it isn't quite that easy, usually just a little push with the tire iron or screwdriver, and maybe a very light tap with the hammer.
Then start checking for everything fitting right and seated properly. Sometimes you need to tap with a hammer (again, do not beat it, light taps only) to get the ring to set all the way in.
Air it up slowly as I previously posted. Always checking it to make certain that everything is seating properly.
The hardest part of the entire process usually is breaking the beads loose. You might be able to get a tire shop to help with that part. But general advice is not to let them remove the ring itself. They have a severe tendency to pry too hard and bend the rings. Tire shops just do not understand these things anymore.
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R.White,
I really do not want to scare anyone off of a good antique automobile because of the danger that the rims do pose. Tire shops tend to be afraid of split rims because of the liability scare from about 40 to 50 years ago. I especially like cars of the 1920s, the so-called "nickel age" second only to horseless carriages. Four cylinder Dodge Brothers cars are wonderful! I have never had one, however have about a dozen good friends that really enjoy them.
I hope you keep and enjoy that Dodge for a long time.
Anyone of average intelligence and some mechanical skill should be able to repair a flat or do nearly any routine tire changes with the two-part split rims as long as they are informed of their potential for danger and take appropriate precautions. I probably personally know more than fifty antique automobile hobbyists that take care of these rims themselves (actually, it may be way over 50??).
I have never personally known anyone that had one come apart under serious pressure. The most important thing really is to make certain that the rim and ring are both in good condition and fit properly. Then air up slowly until everything is fully seated, and you know that it is.
A long, long, time ago, I did have one almost come apart. I was airing it up a bit too fast when the tire popped out on one side and managed to kick the ring almost half out. Because I was watching very closely (and the pressure was still low enough), I was able to stop it, let the air out, and correct my error. I never ever rushed one since.
I also did once have a (relatively speaking) modern drop-center rim develop a crack in the metal without me noticing it. That kabang was interesting enough. That rim, and a couple others I had found before they blew out, is one of the reasons I say that two-part split rims are basically or nearly as safe as modern drop-center rims once they are properly mounted and aired up. Even supposedly good modern rims can blow up on you with little to no warning.
The rim and rim-spreader picture posted by Mark Shaw are the other type of split rims, the one-piece compressible type very common from the late '10s until about 1930 ('31?). Those rim-speaders are wonderful if you have that type of split rim. They are useless for the two-part or three-part rims/wheels like the (probably) Dodge Brothers wheel pictured in post #14 by Mpgp1999. Look closely at the picture, and you can see the ring around the rim.
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The diamond shaped name emblem was attached to the shell, not the radiator itself. From the photos, I can't tell why the round spot.
Dimensions would determine specific year and model applications. I don't have anything to help there, unfortunately.
Have you gotten a Paige chassis yet? That looks like a nice radiator. Paige used a V type radiator on many models from 1915 up until I think 1923. Later ones were taller than earlier ones.
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As mentioned already, there are TWO completely different kinds of "split rims". The more common type in the late 1910s until about 1931 is the type with a single "cut" across the rim to allow easy (that's a laugh) mounting and dismounting of tires by using any of several types of rim tools to compress the rim to a smaller diameter than the tire bead. The rim tool then helps to expand the rim back to a snug fit onto the new tire. These type rims are nice, and as safe as most modern drop-center type rims.
Then, there is the other type.
The "multi-piece" split rims came in dozens of variations. They were used a lot on earlier (brass era) cars with wood wheels (both with demountable rims and wheels without demountable rims). Many of the earlier types will be three and even four part rims.
Trucks, large AND small, used split rims from very early well into the 1980s before a bad reputation for decapitating tire shop personnel caused them to lose favor in the trucking industry. (My '68 Chevrolet 3/4 ton PU still has its original two-piece split rims).
Automobile (small and large car size) wheels often used similar two and/or three part split rims on both steel wire and steel disc wheels in the late 1910s into the mid 1930s (sometimes even later).
Most Dodge automobiles using steel disc wheels during the '20s did use the two part split rim (the rim is non-demountable from the wheel, the entire wheel is changed on the car).
The cautionary statement first. Yes, the two part rims can kill you!
That said, I like them. In my lifetime, I have had three different '60s PUs that used them. I have almost always changed the tires myself (many tire shops refuse to anyway) and I have changed many dozens of them. I have also changed quite a few large truck tires for trucks in my family. And I have changed more than a few antique automobile tires also.
They are NOT very dangerous PROVIDED you have a little education and pay attention to what you are doing. The entire scare back in the '60s and '70s was tire shops tossing untrained kids into harm's way without any training.
Rule number one. Make certain that the ring is straight (okay, round, but straight round)!!!!!! Make sure also that the groove in the rim is clean! If either the ring or the groove is not in good, clean, condition? The ring may well not seat properly.
Rule number two. Certain safety considerations aside, ALWAYS put the first 15 (sometimes 20) psi into the tire SLOWLY!!!!!!
A couple of those safety considerations:
A cage is nice. Heavy steel bars cage to keep the rim and tire inside while you reach in from outside to put air into the tire. A nice idea, but rarely available. I have never had one, never used one.
On model TT Ford truck rims (and others) it is often suggested to wrap heavy rope or chain around and around and around the tire and rim before putting in air. This won't really work well with Dodge (and other) era steel disc wheels because the center hole is small enough that the stretch of the rope could likely give a dangerously false sense of security (chain might still work, but can really scratch paint!).
Most important! Stay out of the firing range! Visualize that if the ring flies off the rim, it will shoot out with great force in roughly straight out from the side of the rim (FACT, such rings have gone as far as two blocks away). Work from the back side of the rim, or off to one side from the tread.
How I do this, depends a lot on the specifics of the tire and rim. I often reach through the center of the rim to hold the air onto the valve stem, with the ring aimed away from me and toward something less prone to damage. The explosive force will be divided between the ring (a pound or two?) and the rest of the rim and tire coupled to your weight. If it blows, by staying on the backside of the rim? You will probably get knocked onto your behind, but as long as you don't hit your head onto something sharp on the way down, you likely would not be seriously hurt. Be aware of what is around you and nearby in the firing direction. Always, think safety.
Something I do not have, but I would recommend? A lock-on air nozzle, so you don't have to actually hold onto the rim or tire or hose. What I made a long time ago, and still use now, is a short air hose that has an old tire pump screw-on end and a tube valve stem on the other end. I still have to manually hold the compressor hose end onto my extension hose, but I have moved me out of the firing range.
Make sure the rim the ring and the tire and the tube are all cleaned and prepped and ready to assemble. Some rims and tires (probably your Dodge) go together easier by putting the tube inside the tire first, then put just enough air inside the tube to make it not quite firm to a finger squeeze. Carefully (so as to not damage the tube) position the tube where you want it in the tire and insert the valve stem into the wheel rim valve stem hole. Start carefully pressing the tire into place on around the rim. Push the backside bead all the way to the back of the rim. The outer bead will need to be carefully pushed in just a bit beyond the ring groove (sometimes you must let some of that air you put into the tube back out again).
Now install the ring(s). These vary a lot across the many years, manufacturers, and patents. Some rings are solid all the way around, and can be very tricky to work with. Some are cut once to snap on easy. Some that are cut actually have tabs and hardware to bolt the ring back together onto the rim.
As I recall, most '20s Dodge steel disc wheels I think used a single cut removable ring with a very good shape to it that should be easy to see which way it goes on. With the tire on far enough? The ring should snap into place easily. (Of course, I could be mistaken, I think I have seen a couple Dodges with some odd multiple ring setup)
Once the wheel, tire, and all rings are in place, recheck again that everything has seated as it should. It is usual that the outer bead of the tire will be a bit inside of the ring. It will require some air pressure to push it out. And THAT is where the danger begins.
Now that you know to stay out of the way, and be careful, start putting in some air. Then take a quick look at the ring. Make sure it is still seated how it should be. Add a couple more psi air (ONLY a couple psi), inspect again. Watch both inner and outer tire beads slide into position on the rim. Hopefully, the beads will simply slip into place gently and quickly. If not, you may need to persuade it. If the tire and rim were a bit tight, it may take a lot more pressure to slip the tire bead over than you should ever consider having in a split rim that has not fully seated yet.
With only about 10 to 12 psi in the tube, and keeping a very close watch on the well seated ring (always staying out of the firing range), hit the tread of the tire with a medium size hammer while rolling the tire around. The hammer blows deflect the sidewalls of the tire, coupled with the 10 psi pushing the sidewall over. Keep a close watch on that ring! Moving and shaking and hammer blows can dislodge a ring sometimes.
Once the tire is properly positioned on the outer parts within the rim, the ring is confirmed properly seated in its groove, and pressure is up to almost 20 psi? Things become pretty safe. One thing that is not commonly understood? Is that not only does the ring keep the tire on the rim, once it is pressurized, the tire locks the ring into its groove.
There are two danger zones in airing up these type split rims. The lesser danger is at that low pressure before everything has seated and locked each other into place. Things sometimes push out unevenly or snap and cause other parts to slip out of proper position. This can cause the ring to not be seated properly, and that can become extremely dangerous.
If you don't check and make sure that everything has seated properly? If the ring is not seated properly? And you start putting real pressure into the tire and tube? Poorly seated rings can be forced clear out, or even broken and partially blown out. That is the really dangerous time. 50 psi puts out a lot more force than you probably realize.
Let me say again, I do not want to scare anybody with these. I like them. I have used many of them. I am not afraid of them at all. But I do have a healthy respect for their potential to do great harm. I want other people in this hobby to have the same feelings about them. Learn how to handle them safely. Then drive your beautiful car and enjoy it!
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This thread has so many well made good points in it by most of the previous posters. There are many things I would like to elaborate upon. But there is one point I have not seen that I think is also important, so I will stick my neck out for that.
In my nearly 50 years in this hobby, I too have seen changing trends and have been on various sides of buyer, seller, and working in the capacity of a dealer.
I wish to tread lightly here (we'll see how that works out). What I think needs to be said does NOT apply to all dealers, or appraisers. One of my longest time best friends has worked for many years as an appraiser, and for a time years ago as a dealer (marketer?), and I worked for him part time. He is a wonderful hobbyist, person, and ambassador for antique automobiles. I always value his opinion very highly. I have also known a couple other dealers, working out of nice (decent?) showrooms for many years. These particular people were also good dealers. I even bought a car from one of them once. When I had to sell that car quickly a few years later to buy a home? I sold it to another good friend that did a little collector car dealing on the side. I do hope he made a good quick profit on it.
There are some very good dealers, and good appraisers, out there.
Unfortunately, there are too many of the other kind also. I have read way too many listings, mostly through eBay, but other websites as well, where dealers seem to be intent upon showing not only how little they know, but how dishonest they are. How often must they make glowing statements about how perfect or original or "the best you will ever see" a car is when a simple glance at a couple bad photos shows the car to be a totally incorrect assemblage of stuff? How often do they need to show photos of early touring cars with the top raised so incorrectly as to show that they do NOT know how to put up a two-man top? These are simple things that anyone with even a little experience with these cars should be able do right.
Unfortunately, newcomers to the hobby do not always know these things, and may not be able to spot the accompanying BS. Newcomers likely will not know the difference between a real 1912 Ford T and a fake one with some reproduction parts put onto a 1920s chassis. These newcomers can be hurt. And the hobby is hurt by these dealers.
What about the big (at least on eBay) dealer (I won't mention their name) that several years ago tried to sell a horse buggy body put onto a made up (probably in the '50s or '60s) chassis complete with an appeared to be '50s Briggs and Stratton engine (speaking of BS) claimed to be an original, real, and/or correct 1899 automobile? Their price started out well over $100,000. This for something that at best was a replication horseless carriage worth about $10,0000. The first time I saw this thing listed? It was one of the rare times (probably only six or seven times in fifteen years) that I sent a comment to the seller with a bad listing. I was polite, tried to be nice, and simply point out their error. The reply I got was not nearly so nice. Several of those similar comments I sent to other dealers also got some really nasty replies to me. This one, they continued to list this thing for several years, while slowly reducing the price (eventually down to $30K). I did read their descriptions a few more times, purely out of curiosity. While they softened their rhetoric on how incredibly special and desirable it was? If they ever said it was not an actual 1899, I never saw it. I don't know if they ever sold it. I do know that I was not the only HCCA member to tell them the things I told them.
I have had too many similar experiences with appraisers. The phrase I have heard WAY TOO MANY TIMES is "Show me another one like it for that amount of money?" I have seen cars worth maybe $10K appraised into six figures. I have told about the badly painted purple mid-'20s Dodge sedan with poor interior and barely ran appraised for $48,000. Based upon what several appraisers have told me, our own AlCapone who recently acquired the one only remaining in the world Cardway (1923) should have paid millions for the car. I don't know what he paid, but while following the odyssey of its sale, I did read an asking figure that was not ridiculous. (I think it is wonderful that he got it! A car that special deserves a good caretaker.)
I think most of us here do understand that a car (almost anything for that matter) is worth an amount of money that a person can reasonably expect other people to be willing to pay for it. It is not worth what one fool with more money than brain might be willing to give in a weak moment. And no other car should be evaluated based upon that one fool.
Sometimes. Actually, quite often. We need to pay a bit much to get the car we want. For whatever our personal reason, if we need to pay twenty or thirty percent over what we think a car should be "worth". That is what it is worth to us and that is a good thing. Enjoying the hobby to the best of our ability is what is most valuable.
Sellers and buyers both need to understand that antique automobile values are a range of values. They range from a high of "I don't need to sell it" to a low of "I gotta have cash this week!" Somewhere between those are the reasonable range for routine sales.
Unfortunately, both appraisers and dealers that throw insane prices and values out there do hurt the hobby by fooling newcomers, many of whom cannot afford to lose ten or twenty thousand dollars. And I have seen it after it happened a few more times than I ever wanted to.
Dealers of collector cars need to be knowledgeable. And if they do not know a certain type of car? They need to know someone they can call and trust! They should NOT be be boasting about cars in ways that border on fraud. Yet several dealers seem intent on displaying their ignorance on a regular basis.
Matt Harwood, I looked at your website after having read your comments. If you were about 1800 miles closer to me? I would like to stop by and introduce myself. But the likelihood of me getting close by your place is rather small anymore.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy the hobby! W2
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I do hope I am not overstepping any boundaries here. But the beast has been driven!!!! David G of oldmotor.com posted a video a few days ago.
I hope my attempt to post a link works?
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=141582
Should take you to the full posting.
And, yes, that thing is incredible.
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I do love a happy ending. Still, not good to have your home violated at all.
I do hope you can get that car together and enjoy it.
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Oh, that is a bad one. If you can, do check with as many scrap metal buyers in the area as you can, and quickly. A friend of mine had some irreplaceable Horseless Carriage parts stolen quite a few years ago. Quick work on a friend's part found most of the pieces. Fortunately, the recycler (in his case) was willing to cooperate, once one piece was spotted, he allowed plenty of time to search for more. Sadly, a lot of recyclers are used to buying stolen goods and don't care. They will often dispose of questionable items quickly.
Good luck to you, Buffalowed Bill. And if failing to locate your parts, I do hope the PAS can help you at least get adequate replacements.
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The 1925 pierce Arrow sedan I had some years ago had one. I liked the thing. I have another one (complete) and a parts donor in my stuff. I keep wanting to put it in my T coupe which has quite a few era accessories on it. But there just always seem to be other project priorities.
One thing the Clymer/Fyrac windshield spotlights are good for, is lighting your motometer at night. That is what I used it for on the Pierce.
Original era accessories are a big part of automotive history. While I would not want every car to have a bunch of them, nor do I like any car that is way overly done with accessories, I do like to see proper era accessories on antique automobiles.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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May I say that hchris (post number 8) gave the best advice.
I quote
"I note that you say "seems to be starving for gas", so my first reaction would be, find out if that's true before messing with anything.
Can I suggest you pick a quiet piece of road and run it at speed until you encounter the problem; at this point, given its safe to do so, turn the engine off and coast to a suitable pull off spot, now see if the vac tank and carb have any, or correct levels, of fuel in them by lifting the top off either, assuming all this is achievable without too much difficulty.
Like others, I have motored many miles with vac tank vehicles, not without problems, but have managed to make repairs without having to resort to electric pumps, pressure regulators, wiring, re plumbing etc."
First determine if the fuel is starving, then choose a plan of repair. Check for vacuum leaks in the engine manifold, vacuum line and fittings, and all around the tank itself. Tanks commonly leak around the top of the tank where the top mechanism bolts on. Make certain the drain flapper valve fits properly and seals off the back-flow (very important). Make sure there are no pinholes or cracks in the inner chamber part of the tank (also very important). Also make sure all the fittings and all the lines in both the fuel lines and the vacuum lines are not plugged a little (or even a lot). And do make sure the fuel tank or cap is properly vented, otherwise you will develop a vacuum inside the gasoline tank and a vacuum to vacuum tug-of-war will begin, and pull very little gasoline.
I, too, have run several cars with vacuum tanks. Yes, I have had my share of trouble from them. Once I got them working right, they mostly have been very reliable and I like them. Just like a timer and coils are part of the heart and soul of a model T Ford? A vacuum tank is much the same to many non-Fords.
One other nice thing about a vacuum tank. Even if it fails. A small can to drain gasoline from the main tank and transfer to the vacuum tank can get you home. Most vacuum tanks hold more than a quart, if your car gets about 20 mpg, you can drive in roughly five mile jumps between refills. I have done that.
I also had a vacuum tank fail in an unusual way for which there were good reasons and a long story that I won't clutter up this thread with. The float failed most impressively, and sank. This resulted in the engine sucking raw gasoline straight into the intake manifold. This was a car in need of a lot of work yet, and we had taken the challenge of an endurance run with it. Among the extra "tools" we carried that day, was about three feet of rubber fuel hose. I cut it into the vacuum line near the vacuum tank. Looped the hose through the firewall where it could be reached by the passenger, then cut the hose in a convenient location. We manually controlled the vacuum air to the vacuum tank by connecting the cut hose for a ways which allowed the tank to fill. When we felt the tank was full enough, we disconnected the vacuum line and plugged the hose going to the intake manifold with a spare bolt. In this way, we kept going for many miles and up steep hills.
Could you do that if an electric or mechanical fuel pump failed? Huh?
I have had four cars (including one model T Ford Boat-tail roadster) that used vacuum tanks and I drove all of them quite a bit. By far, most of those miles have been virtually trouble free. The few times I had trouble? I was always able to get it home without a trailer or tow.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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Ooh that hurts. I preach "be careful" often. I have for years at work, at home, and on the MTFCA forum. (By the way hddennis, would you want me to pass this on to your friends there?) Amazingly, as much exposure to potential amputation as I have had, I have never lost more than a moderately deep cut. I still have all ten clear to the ends. I am careful, and I want others to be also. Not only do I do the work in my own shop, work the hard way without the proper tools, etc, some of my earning a living for years involved underground construction, drill rigs, trenchers, you can imagine what some of that stuff could be like.
Steve Braverman & hddennis, Thank you both for sharing your mistakes here. We all need a reminder from time to time. And I know it is not always easy to tell the world "I screwed up". So again, thank you. And do continue to heal well and fast. Do also be careful about infections. Not only do I have dozens of stories to illustrate work safety? A couple of them turn out badly due to infections.
Do drive and work carefully, And enjoy, W2
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The absolutely, extremely, important questions are all about what kind of wheel you need to make? The year, make, model, maybe even body style and certainly weight requirements along with desired quality for finishing and even how fast the vehicle is expected to be driven. We must know the dimensions of the hub, diameter of the felly, size of spokes including their diameter, length for each part of the spokes overall length, are the fellies wood or are they steel, what are the dimensions of that felly, what kind of end of the spoke fits into what kind of hole in the felly?
Are you wanting to make a single wheel or a full set for one car? Or are you wanting to set up a shop to make wheels for maybe hundreds of cars?
All of these things need to be known in order to give proper answers.
A 1910 model T wheel is absolutely nothing like a 1929 Cadillac wood wheel. How they are put together is very different. There are spoke designs that would amaze you how they are assembled.
The Model T Ford Club of America discusses wheel repair and restoration on its forum quite often, With a well worded google search, you should be able to find a couple dozen threads on the subject. A lot of the information will be model T specific. But a lot of it also would be good for similar wheels of any car or continent.
We even have some regular contributors from your corner of the world. They may be able to help you with sources and supplies or maybe even shops to get work done.
Wood is also very important. Generally speaking, Oak should NOT be used. But there are exceptions where it is recommended. Hickory wood, proper growth (if I recall correctly, I believe it is "second growth" Hickory that is best?), and properly seasoned (aged) is generally considered the overall best wood choice for wheel spokes.
Good luck in your quest!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
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Congratulations! You can't get much more rare than that. And a good looking car also!
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2
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Thank you for the update. And congratulations! Sounds like the good guys won one.
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2
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Just to be clear. Model T pistons (with a little fitting work) will work in the model 22 Metz. The model 25 Metz has a slightly larger bore, an increase of 1/8 inch from 3 3/4 to 3 7/8 inch bore. A special oversize T piston could probably be ordered for a model 25 block provided the model 25 block did not itself need to be bored significantly oversize also. There are probably other pistons available that could also be used for a model 25 Metz.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Creative financing, or...everyone is a wealthy 'real' doctor?
in HCCA General Discussion
Posted
I am actually glad that brass era cars continue to remain desirable and valuable (in a dollar sense). Consider the many millions of dollars total spent by hobbyists every year to restore, preserve, insure, and house horseless carriages. Even I have to acknowledge that a part of my house mortgage is paying for the garage with two antiques in it, and the sheds with a few others (while the modern cars sit outside). If the most desirable cars were not worth a quarter of a million or up? The lesser cars would be losing their garages and being lost to time. To me, the main point of the hobby is the history, and preserving it, including keeping the cars for future generations to see.
If the price to me for that is that I have to do the best I can with a "lesser" car? So be it. The brass model Ts I have may just have to do so that I can go on a wonderful tour and follow for miles that Locomobile or Thomas Flyer I love.