wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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Dodge Brothers is famous for their "all steel" bodies fairly early. I don't know what year that actually began, but even then it was only on the larger production touring car and roadsters. Sedans and coupes were wood framed for several years yet after the touring cars were "all steel". Even after the standard sedans went mostly "all steel", Dodge had a few low production body styles that were still wood framed. A long time ago, a good friend was quite the Dodge expert, and had several 1925 Dodge Brothers automobiles (his favorite year for them). One he was especially proud of was a 1925 Dodge Brothers rare Victoria/Opera Coupe! It had a typical for the era wooden framed body. I often wonder what ever became of that car. It needed extensive restoration, and he messed up his life and I lost track of him years ago.
During the 1920s, a few major automakers began switching to less wood and more steel structure in bodies. It was a long and slow transition.
My 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan (Briggs body) has a typical wood framed sedan body, however the four doors are "all steel"! Not even tack strips of wood in them. There isn't enough wood anywhere in those doors to assemble a single toothpick! They sure open and close nice.
For 1926/'27, Ford moved toward mostly steel bodies in USA production, except for the four-door sedans which remained steel covering over wooden structure. Two-door sedans, coupes, roadsters, and touring cars all used some amount of wood for tack strips, folding tops, and roofs on the enclosed cars. Model A Fords continued in a similar manner. Model A Ford sedans, some were mostly steel structure (especially the later ones), while some continued as major wooden structure. Early Ford V8s followed suit, and then continued progression to all steel bodies by the end of the 1930s.
Chrysler was using a few mostly steel bodies in the mid 1920s, an early proponent for them then furthered by their acquisition of Dodge Brothers in the latter half of that decade. After their acquisition of Dodge, other Chrysler marques went towards more steel and less wood structure.
General Motors was the slowest of the biggest automakers in the USA on that trail. Practically all their cars had wooden framework bodies until at least 1935, with many lower production models still using wooden structure even as late as 1940.
The dozens of other significant USA automakers (Studebaker, Hudson, Nash, Willys, and many more) with a few model exceptions mostly continued with wooden structures until their end or the very late 1930s whichever came first.
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I have driven in several parades, been a long time though. And never one as well known as the Rose Parade! (Although my picture, riding in a friend's car, is in a Life Magazine Winter 1977!)
Welcome to the forum! I hope you have and enjoy that Packard for many years to come!
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I sometimes think everybody in the 1950s/'60s painted their Maxwell runabouts red! Years ago I knew of several of them, One of William Harrah's first real antiques was a painted red Maxwell runabout. Jack Passey had one early on (one of his first pre1916s), and a couple other collectors I knew years ago had ones like that.
The odds are, the cars were more likely either green or blue originally. One of the collectors I know, had a model AB with a 1950's red paint job on it. They eventually restored it properly (after the engine "failed to proceed" on an HCCA national tour). During the teardown, they confirmed the car was originally a dark blue, and that was how it was then restored!
Continuing drift (my apologies). I suspect one would have trouble getting a near pristine two cylinder Maxwell still today at around 25K. The last couple really nice ones I saw sell were over 30K (one I heard went for 35K). Although, the last few older restorations two cylinder Maxwells I saw sell needing some TLC went for a bit under 20K (one I heard went for 17K).
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The Studebaker ED series was as dictator27 says the six cylinder model around 1915/'16, also known by their "series" numbers of series 16 or series 17 or 18. It (and its companion four cylinder) didn't look much like that engine at all. The intake and exhaust were on the same side, not the intake run through the block (to preheat the vaporized fuel) as this engine is. Also, Studebaker did not go to the removeable head until later in the 1910s.
I am not familiar enough with early Dodge automobiles. However I do not think this is a Dodge four. They did run the intake through the block to preheat the fuel vapors and had a removeable head that early, however, if memory serves still, I believe the intake and exhaust sides were flipped from this motor.
I don't recognize it offhand. But I have seen so many engines of that era. The mid 1910s had most companies switching from cast in pairs and threes blocks to single units as well as adding removeable heads, that there were so many variations those years. This one looks somewhat familiar (I know I have seen that raised intake casting on the side of the block before!), but I cannot place it.
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Looking at the "auction" listing shared above? I certainly am no expert on lap robes, and definitely not on presidential ones! However, the first thing I noticed in the auction photos is that the embroidered "Presidential Seal" appears to be a sewn on embroidered patch. Not something I would expect to see on a "highest end" Presidential robe of ninety years ago.
I have never been one to attend many auctions. Only been to a few in all my years in the hobby. However I have known many people that bought and sold major collector cars at auctions (Jack Passey among them!), and a few times I attended just because friends of mine were going anyway. I learned a long time ago to not believe what was published in the auction catalogs.
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Synchronized 2nd and 3rd? Should be. I think Chevrolet picked that up about 1933. Pretty sure all Chevrolet cars were torque tube through at least 1952. Not sure about 1953/'54. 3/4 ton pickups and bigger trucks were open driveline I "think" throughout the 1930s and later. If I recall correctly (please correct me if I am wrong?) the first year for the famous Babbitt-beater 216 was 1939. So it should be the 216. I don't recall what year they dropped the oil fill/breather pipe on the side of the engine, and put the oil filler in the valve cover? However, I know 1941 still had the side filler (pre-smog later 1940s and early 1950s still had the breather pipe just without the oil filler). The engine photo is the wrong side to see the breather pipe, however, the valve cover doesn't have the oil filler in it.
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I guess I need to try to check the model T section here more often. I spend some time on the MTFCA forum everyday.
Ford put a serial number on every production vehicle manufactured from mid 1903 onward. The big question is where?
For the model T Ford, from the first 1909 model (manufactured in late summer 1908) into early 1926 "model" year, that serial number was on the engine block, and although there were other serial numbers associated with the early car (body numbers, radiator numbers, data plate numbers, etc), the ONLY official serial number on the entire car was the one on the engine block. Except for the first hundred or so cars, 1909 into 1912, the serial number was below the valve area, on the car's right hand side. Early in the 1912 model year (about November or December 1911) the "official" serial number was moved to the upper left side of the engine block where it moved around for a few months, before settling onto the space just above the water inlet to the block. There, it remained through the end of model T production.
1926 "model" year production began around September of 1925. It wasn't until well into December of 1925 that Ford began putting the serial number on both the engine block and the frame. So even early 1926 models had only the engine number for the official serial number. Location on the frame was usually very close to near the brake/clutch handle cross shaft. However, it could be on either side frame rail. on the top of the rail. I have seen a couple frames with the serial number farther forward from the cross shaft. No reason is known why the factory did that.
Sometimes, the serial number stamping is faint, and is often hidden by just rust. If one is there, sanding with a medium-fine sandpaper will usually show it. Coarse sandpaper works faster, but if it is faint, might completely obliterate it.
TT trucks basically followed the model T cars as far as serial numbers were concerned.
Odd exceptions. Some states, including California where I am, preferred serial numbers be on the frame, even back in the 1920s. So, sometimes, engine numbers, and sometimes state assigned numbers, were stamped onto frames. (California back then requested engine numbers be stamped onto frames, however, it was not required) These might be located anywhere!
If your TT is a 1925 model? It should not have a serial number on the frame. The only serial number for a 195 TT would be the engine block. And that number might be meaningless if the engine was changed at any time in the past 98 years.
Several good pictures could help with identification.
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1 hour ago, 41 Su8 said:
No left rear tire.
That was why my first comment was "broken axle"! Followed by a couple snarky comments. Clearly some sort of hack job.
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Broken axle?
Long walk home?
Painted wrong colors?
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ALL collector vehicles are a narrow specialty for appraisals. Military vehicles, hearses and ambulances, much more so than anything else is! Authenticity, provenance, correctness of restoration, all play a big role in their value! Rarity does not make a big difference in value for vehicles that by their very nature are already rare!
One could be the best Buick late 1930s ambulance on the planet? Finding a hundred collectors anywhere in the world that can afford the car for anywhere near what the restoration cost would be very difficult!
"Professional cars" and military vehicles truly appeal to a very limited spectrum of the antique automobile hobby. And most of the people that would love to have one frankly cannot afford to buy or keep one if they had to pay even half of what it should be worth.
It would be helpful to know whether the OP is looking to sell or buy? Advice needs to be skewed to reflect future issues if the OP is seriously interested in buying it? Or point out the disadvantages of hanging on too long hoping for that "one" person to come to buy it if trying to sell it? Just reality.
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The "zipper" was invented about the time of World War One (the "Great War"), however did not start becoming common until around the time of World War Two. Clothing, like non-military men's pants and suit slacks almost never had zippers until after the second world war.
So that zippered pouch, if original to the blanket, might make it later rather than earlier.
Lap robes were still in common use in the 1950s, even in closed cars. Heaters were not yet standard equipment, and most sedans had blanket ropes on the back of the front seat where either front or rear passengers could grab the blanket when they got cold.
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Varun C, you constantly amaze me on the many cars you can identify!
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This is something about earlier cars that gets mentioned occasionally, but needs to be explained a bit better more often.
Before Henry Ford led the way for mass production techniques, most parts of nearly all automobiles were produced in small shops, most of the work by hand in limited numbers. Many types of crude bucking forms and jigs were used, and designs often changed from one week to the next week. Printing was slower also. Most catalog pictures had to be altered by hand one way or another before they could be included into parts books or sales brochures. Designs of cars often changed before the brochures were printed.
Actual production was often somewhat different from what pictures showed in the books and brochures. Even in actual production, cars one month may have had different enders from the previous month, even in the same model/series.
A car I know. I won't give the actual year or model, and please, anyone knowing the car, do not mention their name, as the owner would prefer that. I will say that the make is a National. There are a fair number of those in private collections all over the globe. And more than a few people know of the car, and its history. I personally knew at least four collectors owning at least one National.
A private collector I have been fortunate to know for several decades now, bought the car a few decades ago. The car's history was known, back to the original owner. And, the car was more than a little updated when it was nearly ten years old! It had also suffered a typical 1950s refurbishment, which had erased a bit more of the original car. This presented a problem for the then new owner. Although mostly a very solid, well cared for car, it was not quite like it had been when new. The car sat in the collection for a number of years while other cars were acquired and restored, and they considered what to do with the National. Eventually (not too long actually), the decision was made to restore the car back to as close to as original as reasonably possible. A car as rare as this, most owners know who most of the others are. Research was done, copies of era brochures and photographs were purchased. Other owners were consulted. When the car had been updated (about ten years after it had been built), the wheels were cut down to take advantage of the then newer tire sizes available, and all four fenders had been replaced with something considered more stylish for the time. Top and windshield had also been chopped a bit. The top, windshield, and wheels were not much of a problem. Proper replacements or simple alterations to return them to as original took care of those. The Fenders however turned out to be a real problem. The later replacements were not anywhere near correct, and frankly, they weren't all that nice (it was a nearly ten year old car when the "update" was done!). Research had supplied several brochure pictures, but none of them matched the original era photos of similar year and model cars! A few similar year and model cars were known to exist in private collections, owners were contacted, and as helpful as they could be. The problem was, that most of the known other cars all had different fenders fronts and rears! If I recall the numbers, of all the known other cars, there were three cars that had fenders alike. That specific style was seen in era photos of a couple other cars. The owner of one of those three cars was not very far away (almost a thousand miles?), and willing to be very cooperative. The consensus was found (no where near unanimous!), a sample available, the fabricator was sent, extensive photos and measurements and even tracings taken, and the best possible guess for the car were duplicated.
So, a well known marque, lots of original era information available, and several known survivors, yet the fenders across the board are not all alike. No wonder us mere mortals have so much trouble identifying some of these unusual cars!
Ariejan, you are one of the best!
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16 hours ago, alsancle said:
Now, that is a cute and nicely accessorized 1924/'25 model T Ford coupe! Headlamps, radiator cap, wind wings, and steel disc wheels. I had a 1924 model T coupe, nicely accessorized, but not quite that much. I sure miss it.
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On 12/7/2023 at 7:35 PM, pmhowe said:
How could someone lose a head? Still..what a neat car!
Easy. The series 80/81 Pierce Arrows, some of them had a "good" head, and some of them had a "bad" head. I don't offhand recall which parts of which series had the good ones or the bad ones. But there are a lot of nice series 80/81 cars hiding in garages because they have a "bad" head, and "good" heads are tough to find and get.
So, either the car had a bad head, and a previous owner removed the head planning to replace it, or trying to get it repaired? He may have taken the head to som shops, not liking the quotes or lack of guarantees for the repair? And somewhere in the process either the PO or a shop lost the head or scrapped it for nonpayment of the charges?
Or, the car had a good head? And someone, maybe the same owner, maybe a friend, had a nicer car in a more desirable body style that they couldn't drive because that head was bad. "Hey. I have an idea, lets take the good head off this car, and get the nicer car running, and we'll replace this head later?" But it never got replaced.
This car makes me sad. It reminds me of the 1925 series 80 sedan I had to sell about thirty years ago. Only mine was in MUCH nicer condition, and had a good head. It was one of my favorite of all the cars I have ever had. I enjoyed driving it on tours as much as any car I ever had!
Even if I had the money to throw away, I wouldn't buy this one for half the asking price.
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14 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:
John, you want to see a wild bunch check out the art deco prewar toaster collectors group. Ok I made that up but I know you get it already... 😁😁😁
Hey! I have a great prewar art deco toaster! And a couple nice electric toasters from around the Great War (WW1).
My wife has a Facebook account, and shows me stuff often. Otherwise, the only time I ever look at it is cars for sale shared here in the "not mine" area.
She did sign me up in to an account. It is still there. The last time I signed in or looked myself was when one of my longtime best friends died suddenly over ten years ago. I signed in to leave a farewell on his site/page.
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I admit it! I ain't gonna lie! I have brush painted a few cars over the years. A couple I hoped to keep long enough to repaint and do a better job of it. And a few because I don't want to fool around with highly toxic really stupid expensive modern paints. Good old type oil based enamels can work fine, and are still available at farm and boating stores.
A couple of my favorite cars came to me as horrible unrestorable piles of junk. It was easier to brush when ready than to keep ready parts until I had enough to set up the spray equipment. Several such cars came out looking just fine, and I enjoyed them on tours for as long as I had them done enough to drive.
Every antique automobile I ever owned and later sold, was better (most a LOT better!) when I sold it than it was when I bought it. So I feel good about them.
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Water jacket freeze cracks usually do not do major damage to cylinders or valve areas. However, it would have to be closely inspected to know for certain that they were okay.
Usually, freeze cracks and even missing chunks can be repaired by someone that knows the right ways to do so. However, be sure they are highly recommended by experts in the know! A ham-handed hack can do a lot of damage in the attempt to do the repairs. There are only a few people in the country good enough to be trusted.
I knew a couple people some years ago, but do not think they are still available, and I don't have any good recommendations at this time.
I have done a fair amount of cast iron repair myself. I have done some good work I am proud of? And I have done some cheap and dirty repairs (simple repairs on cars not worth the expense or time, like a model T Ford engine block) that I would prefer to not admit to. So I know my way around it a bit. I will not do such repairs for others as frankly I am NOT good enough.
Maybe later I will tell the incredible tale of what can actually be done by someone that knows what they are doing and doing it right.
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Sad, on so many levels. Nice looking car. Based on one photograph?
I have seen a few very original Durant automobiles, basically, this model. They may have been blue? But none I have seen were anywhere near that shade of blue.
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Interesting! Don't recall ever seeing one before. But then, I don't pay much attention to late 1930s Ford trucks.
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You say the engine is ruined? How so? You might be amazed at what a good shop can rebuild. Of course, you might be shocked at the cost also?
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Looks to me more like a gas tank cap. From what I don't know. Probably late 1950s or 1960s from the style.
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Stan Howe was considered by many people to be the world's best antique automobile carburetor specialist (no offense to Jon/carbking!). Stan was a brilliant and energetic fellow (auctioneer, writer, musician, and antique automobile hobbyist). Sadly (not unexpectedly), he passed away a couple years ago while working in his shop (he was in his 80s!). He had had a small machine shop, and was proficient in machinist work large and small (had a watchmaker's lathe!). For antique automobile work, he specialized in antique era brass carburetor rebuilding. He knew, truly understood, how a carburetor worked. He could make any part they needed, and had a couple engines of different sizes set up to test run carburetors and aid in their adjustment. He was considered by many to be the go-to guy for early carburetors, and rebuilt many of the rarest of the rare of them for private collectors and museums all around the world.
Ten years ago, several people would have quickly sent you to Stan Howe. Also, ten years ago, before he retired, Jon/carbking here was still rebuilding carburetors for collectors all over the world, and would have done just as well with it! Unfortunately, a lot of the hobby's best craftsmen are slowly going away.
Maybe we should just chain Jon to his workbench? (Just KIDDING!)
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I knew someone about twenty years ago that had an almost identical car. His was beautifully restored, near show condition (he paid top dollar for it because it was so nice!). It was a great nickel era tour car. I know the upholstery on this one isn't quite right, but what I can see doesn't look too bad (I do wonder what is hiding behind the turned up rear seat cushion?).
I wish I could jump on this one, as long as I didn't find too much serious damage hiding from the photos. But I cannot afford to consider any such thing right now.
Odds are that about a month of clean up and some tinkering on the mechanics would have a marginally usable car. Never know what problems sorting might find. But that is part of the fun. One always has to fix a few things.
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For Sale: 1939 LINCOLN TWELVE MODEL K VICTORIA CONVERTIBLE BY BRUNN - $125,000 - MOCKSVILLE, NC - Not Mine
in "Not Mine" Automobiles For Sale
Posted
Isn't that what most uninformed sellers do?
People that know prewar era cars know that a lot of other people know them also. Therefore they will tell what it is. Uninformed sellers don't know what the car really is, and therefore refer to their fantasies of what they wish it was.