wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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6 minutes ago, mikewest said:
$250,000 wouldn't fix it. Not even close.
If a person were to have my Paige done from its current state? Would probably cost 25K for a mediocre job. Doing all the work myself I figure about $4000 left out of my pocket. The biggest costs left are the glass and the brakes. I knew what was coming, and had an opportunity to have the nickel plating all done over thirty years ago (was over $2000 then!). The biggest amount of work left is the full interior. If I can get to it, it won't be my first, though it might be my last full interior. I already have almost all the materials for it! Very nice mohair, very close to what they used originally.
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Okay, after reading comments, I had to click on the link and take a look (in spite of the fact there is no way I could afford to even think about such a car?). Wow, what an incredible car that could become!
It is in far worse condition than my Paige was when my dad bought it almost 60 years ago! And I did spend some significant time on the Paige after it became mine. It was almost half done thirty years ago. But family keeps getting in the way, no time and not enough money to continue working on it.
When I look at cars like that Packard, I still see potential. I remember when I was restoring one car after another and think "I could do that!" But then reality sets in. My days for that kind of restoration are past.
To do that Packard to a good level (not Pebble Beach) would take at least ten times as much money and ten times as much time as it would take to finish the Paige if I had the time and a few dollars. Maybe even twenty times as much. I might still be able to finish the Paige some day.
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The "car" appears to be an early "cyclecar" and probably has a motorcycle engine. Likely a V-twin, but could be a single. In the USA, there was a short cyclecar craze from about 1910 to about 1913. In America, the craze died down quickly as Henry's model T went down in price and became much more affordable.
In Europe, the craze began earlier, and continued into the early 1930s. One of the main reasons for European's interest in cyclecars was the vehicle tax structure in most European countries was based upon horsepower, and tended to be punitive with even moderate horsepower cars being taxed heavily. Average working families wanting a car needed something small and low horsepower that could carry a couple adults or one adult and a couple children when needed. Light and cheap, with low taxation, cyclecars were the perfect simple solution to personal transportation in Europe! And with their punitive horsepower taxation, they remained popular there into the 1930s.
Naturally, of course, anything one could drive, should be raced! And throughout the 1920s, cyclecar racing in England and Europe was a serious sport!
It was Hitler's rise to power that put an end to the cyclecar's popularity. Then, when the rebuilding of Europe took place after the war, the flimsy cyclecar was sort of overlooked. It was replaced by a bunch of mini cars with very small but efficient engines built by several European companies. But that is a story for another day.
I sure would like to know more about the car in the OP photo. I don't recognize it, although I do think I have seen it before. That front axle should be it identifiable to someone that really knows cyclecars. I am not even sure if it is American or European.
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The car looks like it was a 1933 to 1935 Chevrolet, actual year dependent on whether it is a Master or Standard series.
The damage is interesting. It looks as though it may have made an abrupt stop hitting something low, and flipped end over then landing on the roof? Or it went over a low cliff and flipped forward hitting the front into the ground and rolling over again. Either way, not good for anyone inside.
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I am not certain. They could be among the last of the Willys Whippet automobiles? I am familiar with the earlier ones, but not the 1930 or later so much. But they both look close to the late Whippet automobiles. How could ANYONE mistake a Whippet for a Stutz of any year is beyond me! Maybe all they looked at was the bumpers? Maybe their peanut size brain said "I think I saw that bumper on a Stutz one time?" Those bumpers are clearly not original to the cars.
I zoomed in as close as the definition would allow, couldn't read the radiator badge. But it has the shape, colors, and style of the 1929 to 1931ish Whippets. And I have seen a few of the late Whippets over the years. The firewall looks right.
Additional thought.
The better sedan MIGHT be worth $5000 as a non-running car. The falling-apart sedan maybe $2000 as a parts car (as if anyone wants a parts car for one these?).
I have known a few people over the years that had Whippets, even a few of the later ones. They like the cars! I knew an Overland collector years ago that had three or four whippets. One of his favorite tour cars was a 1929 Whippet roadster! He loved that car as much as any of the several restored Overlands that he had!
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Maybe for a C-cab TT (first offered in 1924)? Their windshield is very similar to the 1924/'25 roadsters and touring cars, but everything is slightly different.
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I love that interior! It reminds me of the original interior in a friend's 1925 Stearns Knight many years ago!
Lots of the big Cadillac touring cars around. And I have seen several opera coupes, a few two passenger coupes of the late 1910s and early 1920s. However, regular sedans do not seem to become common until about 1924 and later. Really neat car! It makes me wish I could afford it somehow, in spite of the fact at this stage of my life I really do not want to fool with a V8.
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12 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:
In rereading your post, I notice that you use the words “natural finish”, and I’m not absolutely sure I understand what you mean.
I call it "natural finish" because that is what most people call it. The reason I "quote" "natural finish" is because that is what most people call it, but that is NOT what it is? Make sense?
What most people call "natural finish" is in fact a combination of oils, stains, and synthetic coatings that may be somewhere near clear or in fact have some amount of coloring (often yellowing or a hint of brown or red?). Nothing really "natural" about that!
The idea is of course to highlight and show off the grain of the wood, which is a natural part of its character. (Ever notice how when the wood is stained and coated with a clear finish, in a lot of woods the lighter part of the grain becomes much darker, and the darker part of the grain by comparison becomes lighter?)
While I have a great appreciation for fine woodwork and furniture, the clearcoats available a hundred years ago did not hold up well under rough use or bad weather. Therefore, they were not practical as a commercial body finish.
Hence why most (not all!) commercial vehicles were painted inside and out.
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11 hours ago, CarNucopia said:
“needs TLC…..“
Total Lunatic to Complete
I love that one!
The ironic thing about the color is, that one of the best really original paint cars I ever saw in colors really close to this, was a 1927 Cadillac (one of two built) Fleetwood limousine. Beautiful original car! In beige and brown before the craze of painting anything those colors. Those colors were used on some cars in the 1920s and early 1930s. They were not common colors, but they were around.
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I like a nice dark green on a lot of antique automobiles. Especially on commercial vehicles. I think a Hunter or Brewster green looks great on trucks. I generally like an original factory color on cars, which were more standardized, but trucks were often painted the company's color regardless.
I have had two antique truck I restored. A 1925 Ford TT truck with a wooden after-market body, and a brass era model T pickup, also an after-market wooden body. Both I painted dark green.
People love "natural finish" on wood on antique automobiles. But the truth is, that back in the day it was not commonly done. I can think of several beautiful trucks with natural finish inside that I wouldn't want to change a thing on them. Even though I know it likely wasn't that way originally (although one I knew quite well in fact was done that way originally).
It always pleases me when someone paints the interior of their antique truck. To me, it just feels right.
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The aluminum heads on these engines are famous in Studebaker circles for being very difficult to work with. You are fortunate to have one in better condition than most.
And folks! This is one of the best writeups I have seen about how to remove the head, and then remove the studs which often are also very difficult! Good pictures, actual temperatures given. A combination of the right kind of penetration oil, soaking time, heat and more penetrant, where and how to get ahold and apply selective force and vibration to break parts loose.
The way to fix the passageway corrosion I don't think can be beaten. Welding on this sort of aluminum is problematical at best. It takes a real specialist to even attempt welding, very careful temperature balances are required or severe breakage of the head would be almost guaranteed! Plugs, properly fit, with frozen plugs into a very warm but not too hot head can make a "permanent" repair that will likely outlast the head itself.
The last time I removed a similar studded head (not a Studebaker), after soaking with Kroil for a couple weeks (sometimes applied after heating), I used over twenty screw drivers, chisels, and assorted wedges around the block. They were literally two to three inches apart all the way around the block! It took a couple hours carefully tapping and wiggling each and every one around and around and around! The head came off with no harm to the head or block.
Don't force it! Finesse it!
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I remember now, that wagon was so long and low, I used to call it the "battleship".
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FYI, Delco and Remy merged in September of 1926. I just googled it. I remembered it was right about 1927 as my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan has all Remy badged electrical parts. I had discovered many years ago that the merger was just before the car was built, making it one of the last (million or so cars?) to be so badged. I have a couple spare distributors I found many years ago for my Paige that look identical to its original distributor, except the spares are badged "Delco-Remy".
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We had a 1972 Chrysler station wagon similar to this one back about 1980. Ours had the 440, was dark brown metallic with the fake wood sides. It was a beautiful station wagon! The stories I could tell.
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For whatever it is worth, the Ford headlamp is unusual, used for only a few months in late calendar year 1925 on the early 1926 model T cars.
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I had a feeling that car was going to clean up pretty nice! I love the look of really old paint buffed up to a good shine.
Hey Ed, I see it is the right arm in a sling. Don't you know you are supposed to crank the T with your left?
I "say" that, however, in all honesty I have cranked my cars with my right hand for over fifty years now! It was the way I was taught, so even after I learned differently (and the reasons for it!) I never changed my ways. Never broke my arm. (So far????)
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From the look of it, I would expect it is an English built body. Nothing that era in a typical USA built Chrysler looks like that. That leaves engine and chassis details to determine model.
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I have a very healthy respect for heights, and generally take reasonable precautions and care in climbing. Usually.
I did communications contracting for most of my adult career, and climbing towers was a large part of that work. I never had to climb any of the really tall towers. My dad on the other hand on several occasions had to climb towers to over 500 feet! I think the highest I ever had to go up a tower was about 200 feet. There was one tower that we installed that topped out at 150 feet, which we serviced for over twenty years. I went clear to the top of that tower hundreds of times! A well built properly guyed tower is fairly stable, and for me comfortable to be near the top. The scariest tower I was ever on was just over 30 feet tall, on a hillside and very unstable, leaning over a good ten feet! Felt like it was going to buckle over every second I was on it, and the way it was leaning on the hillside a lot more than thirty feet down!
We didn't climb towers all the time, and only carried the belts when we expected to need them (riding around in a service truck is not good for the belts!). Often, when I would discover that a problem was "up there", and I didn't have the belt with me? I climbed the towers without a belt. (OSHA would have freaked out if they had known at that time!) But I knew how, and I was careful when doing so.
I also on a few occasions put my extension ladders in the back of my pickup truck if it was just two feet too short. And a few times had to lean ladders agains the strand between poles if that was where a problem was.
My eldest son was really into rock climbing for many years. He climbed "Half Dome" in Yosemite a few times. Kind of a funny thing. I just never could see the fun in rock climbing? After climbing towers literally hundreds of times? It just looked like work to me?
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I was thinking Fischer Body Company. They were a general coach builder officially founded in 1908, and built bodies for numerous automakers of the era for several years. In the brass era of model T Fords, they were one of the top five suppliers for Ford's model T, providing common touring car bodies as well as the rare early coupes and I believe town cars. When Ford brought out the famous center-door sedan in 1915, Fischer built many of those for a number of years. Ford, even after moving the majority of body building inhouse by 1920, continued using some Fischer bodies even until after Fischer became part of the General Motors empire.
If I recall correctly, the body on my 1924 model T Ford coupe was a Fischer body (according to the builder's date and coding information stamped into the floorboard risers).
Clearly, this is not a Ford body of that era. But it could be from almost any larger other automobile from the Detroit area around 1910. Fuller Buggy Company could be a possibility, however, having researched Fuller some years ago, I consider that somewhat unlikely.
The "F B Co" stamping in the wood looks very much like the early model T's body stampings I have seen on original known Fischer bodied Ts.
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Interesting. The FB listing states that it was found in the Sierra (mountains?), but doesn't say where in the Sierras (a very long mountain range).
It looks like it could be old enough to date back to the California Gold Rush. Many a sailor jumped ship to try their luck in the gold fields. Certainly, a lot of them would have taken tools of their former trade with them.
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Do they need to be AACA? These are actually HCCA.
The modern interloper (Goldbug) is there because the fellow's 1914 Kissel touring car blew out the water pump the day before the tour was to start! And I am kidding calling it an "interloper". The Goldbug is gorgeous! A few weeks later and the 1914 was back on the road.
The resolution may actually not be high enough. But these photos are fond memories for me.
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If your Chrysler has external contracting band brakes (which I think it does?)? Be prepared for some stopping issues. When the drums and bands get wet, they don't work very well. They may do nothing at all for a bit, then grab unevenly causing handling troubles. Don't fear it, just be prepared, and allow double or even triple normal stopping distances for the car!
I highly recommend practicing for a bit under safe conditions, using the hand brake to stop your antique automobile. One should KNOW what to expect from it, and how it will react and handle emergency stops. I believe your Chrysler like the 1925 Studebaker I used to have has the hand brake behind the transmission. I drove that Studebaker in the rain "a few" times, and found the hand brake stayed dry enough to stop the car more reliably in the rain. A bit squirrely, but better stopping than the wet service brake.
Another thing about external contracting brakes, is that they get wet, but applying the brake a bit ahead of a planned stop can brush most of the water off, and after a few seconds begin to dry the linings. Again, allow extra distance to do that, and be prepared for uneven braking.
Internal expanding shoe brakes can have some stopping issues in the rain, especially if they do not have full backing plates. However, the drums afford some protection from water accumulation, so the effects are less dramatic.
The 1925 Studebaker I had was a two-door coach (sedan), so keeping passengers and the car's interior fairly dry was not difficult. My main worry driving antiques in the rain is getting parts of the car wet that could result in damage to the car. Another car I used to have was an open sport roadster, with no top. I only drove it in the rain on a few tours I was really looking forward to going onto. For it, I grabbed up a bunch of old towels, and a large plastic bag. At every stop, I would dry the "interior". When we went inside at stops, I would cover the seat and floor with towels. Then when we went to leave, I would gather up the towels and put them into the plastic bag. It wasn't raining hard that day, so the towels mostly absorbed the rain before it could get into the seat or floors.
I have had a few model T speedsters over the years. Most of them were driven in heavy rain a few times! Other than handling and braking issues which I always carefully planned for, I never had a problem with any of them.
As far as engine and ignition issues? I never had any significant trouble from any of them. With a hood and the engine's heat, everything usually stayed dry enough. Actually, the only "engine" issue I can recall offhand, was once in my first model T speedster, on the way home from the club's annual "rainy run to the snow" trip! It was raining buckets! And I was having a blast in the open wheel, no windshield, no doors, no top, car! As I often did with a car like that, I would zoom up ahead, then pull over to watch the other cars go by. Wait a couple minutes and then catch up to the line and follow them for awhile. Then repeat with a zoom ahead and stop again.
So there I was, doing a good 60mph in the pouring rain in a car that might as well been a motorcycle, and unseen ahead was a slight dip in the road, with the water almost a foot deep! (Nobody ahead of me to see a splash and the water lay nice and flat looking like pavement.) You could say the Bosch magneto the car had got a bit wet, and the car was running on about 2 1/2 cylinders, so I pulled over and parked. I was trying to keep the engine running enough to dry it out more quickly, but looked under the hood and discovered the splash had literally washed the fan belt off its pullies! So I shut the engine off (which was probably a better idea anyway?), and put the fan belt back where it belonged. I restarted the car just as the line caught up to me and we went along our merry way.
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That looks an awful lot alike the one I saw at an auction in Las Vegas over twenty years ago! If by chance it is the same car, someone did a nice job cleaning it up and somewhat detailing it. The car at that auction wasn't nearly so nice looking.
One of the rare times I actually went to a major auction.
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Been there. Done that.
Photo of DAIMLER DOUBLE SIX (1931-1935)
in General Discussion
Posted
I was wondering about that myself. Several high end Classic engines found their way into industrial uses for years after the limited production cars were done. Auburn's V12 ended up in fire engines and speed boats. The Bugatti Royale engine was used in rail yard switch engines. I have heard a few other stories over the years. High end automotive engineers went to great lengths to create really powerful and effective engines for their creations. It stands to reason that some of them found their way into other uses once the forms were made, and design specs completed.
Some years back. I met a fellow that had a V12 Auburn (club sedan if I recall correctly?). It had a fire engine engine in it, and he knew about it when he bought the car. But he wasn't a big bucks collector, and the price was fair. He pointed out the detail differences to me (most of which I have long since forgotten?). People that knew. of course knew. And he wasn't trying to hide the facts behind it. The car was no less impressive looking, and he certainly enjoyed driving and showing the car wherever it was welcomed.
I read about a car like the Daimler above, and wonder how or why the engine was replaced by a Buick straight eight in the first place. Then I wonder where someone found a suitable "proper" replacement? But I have also heard (and even seen) many stories where someone has/had some incredible historic engine out of some known historic car. Sometimes, the stars just align just right and such things come together.