wayne sheldon
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Posts posted by wayne sheldon
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Thank you 30D-P- for finding and posting those photos! They really show what the climber's belts are for. My dad had worked "high line" power systems (high voltage) for many years before getting into communications systems. I worked up on poles a little bit over the years, but never got that good at climbing with the spurs. My dad at six foot four inches and a bit shy of 300 pounds (a BIG fellow!) could go up and down poles like a squirrel! I never got that good at them myself. I however did spend many hundreds (maybe thousands even?) of hours up on towers with the belt.
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19 hours ago, RetroPetro said:
A Paige! Probably a 6-65 or 6-70 model, either 1926 or 1927.
Note the three color combination. Black upper body and fenders and aprons, Probably a medium dark green beltline and hood top, over the lighter lower body color which was likely a greenish off-white or cream color. I have seen a couple original paint Paige sedans that combination. Paige was early with the sportier light colored cars in the mid 1920s. Even at that, most of their sales were the more traditional darker colors.
Unusual "dog" sitting on the cowl?
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An era photo with white wall tires!
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Looks almost identical to my dad's utility pole climber's safety belt. There is another belt, a toolbelt that goes around the climber's waist. It has two larger cast loops, one on each hip, which those hooks latch into. One usually climbs the pole with the safety belt hanging on one side, then when one has reached the wires or connections needing service, loops the safety belt around the pole with the end hooks one on each side. Than one can lean back against the belt and do the required work.
The belts are usually used with climbing spurs. Spurs are steel frame brackets that go under your shoe and up the side of your lower leg. They have attached belts and buckles to hold them tightly onto one's leg. Pole climber's and tree climber's spurs differ in the size and placement of the sharp spur itself. Tree climber's spurs are longer, and mount onto the steel frame slightly above the ankle. Pole climber's spurs are shorter and mounted onto the frame alongside the ankle. Tree climber's spurs have to be longer and in turn mounted higher because the spur has to poke through the thickness of the tree's bark to dig securely into the tree's solid wood, necessary for the climber's safety.
I imagine similar belts were used for many specialized purposes
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2 hours ago, PFitz said:
Thanks.
Then the question is,.. is it car porn or art ? 😁
Paul
Definitely art!
I too have done a few total re-wood a body restorations. However, none of the ones I did were quite as complicated or nicely done as what 31LaSalle and PFitz showed.
My 1915 model T runabout in process,
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14 hours ago, mikewest said:
Explain to me whats RARE about a 31 Py Coupe?
It is the only one with that particular incorrect upholstery job in that color?
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12 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:
I always heard that one of the reasons there were so many more early Fords than any other marque was that Ford was the first to get rid of wood for the body frames. Of course Ford produced a lot more cars than even Chevrolet so that has something to do with the numbers. Way back when the wood framing gave way the car was just junked and didn't survive well enough to be restored at some later date. I have also been told that Ford set out to defeat the carpenters union early in his career.
Interesting legends, but not fact.
I don't recall offhand what year it was? However, Maxwell had a basically all-steel body beginning about 1907 on their inexpensive little two-cylinder runabout. Which is why so many of those survive still. The first year for Ford to use mostly all steel bodies was the 1926 model year, nearly twenty years later! Not exactly leading the way? The Dodge Brothers, former partners of Henry Ford, after they left the partnership to form their own automobile producing company, began using mostly all steel open car bodies in the late 1910s. Still nearly ten years before Ford.
Certainly, the deterioration of wooden framing lead to the early demise of millions of automobiles. However, other factors including changing technologies and styles, and the rough roads and dusty conditions, generally rendered most automobiles of that era worn out and obsolete long before the bodies fell apart.
As for the "carpenter's union" thing?, I never heard that one before.
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I always found the friendly rivalry between Stutz and Mercer interesting. As a longtime hobbyist that has been privileged to personally know sever major collectors over the years, I have managed to sit in on discussions by owners of both marques. I have been up close, worked on sat in rode in (even drove a couple?) of both companies.
They are kind of like "apples and oranges" as era sports and racing cars go. The Stutz is more the true muscle car of its era, a rather large and very powerful "sports" car! Whereas the Mercer is a medium size sports car, with only about two-thirds the horsepower as the Stutz, but also only about two-thirds the weight. If handling was important for a race? The Mercer had an advantage. If raw power was needed? The Stutz could blow away the competition! (I didn't make that stuff up myself? That is what owners of the cars have told me!)
While the Stutz was bigger, leaner, and meaner? The Mercer had a bit more "flash", with more brightwork (earlier models usually in brass and sometimes lots of it!), giving a bit more "style"!
All this to point out that the Middleby appears to be even smaller than the Mercer, itself considerably smaller than the Stutz. The Middleby is a rarely heard of car, I am not sure I have ever heard of one, and that does not happen often for me. I am fairly sure I have never seen one myself. The Middleby is significant in its own special way.
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Again, TT trucks before about December of 1925 (and some possibly later into early calendar 1926?) only had the official serial number on the engine block!
Before that, there would not have been a serial number on the frame anywhere from the factory. Some states encouraged switching to "frame" numbers even by the early 1920s, so in some cases, numbers might be found on the chassis put there by the state, or local constabulary, or even a local repair shop (rules were loose in those days?). In those cases, the numbers could be put ANYWHERE! California was one such state that tried to push chassis numbers very early, and over the years I have seen (and had!) several frames with numbers located in a bunch of different places, always somewhere on the front half of the frame.
For 1926/'27 models with factory stamped serial numbers on the frame? Remove (if there are any?) the front floorboards. See the brake handle and clutch cross shaft (if it is there? Or find where it was?). The factory serial number (IF it has one?) should be on the top of the frame rail, within inches (sometimes directly over!) the brake cross shaft below it. It could be on either the right or the left frame rail. The ten millionth model T was produced almost two years before the serial number was added to the frame, so original serial numbers (on USA built Ts) should be eight digits long.
Water and dirt could often settle into that area, often obscuring the stamping, and sometimes eroding it away. Scrape the area somewhat clean. maybe use some medium grade sandpaper on it to help it show up (if it is there?).
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10 hours ago, 8E45E said:
Craig
I find the whole study of the Canadian model Ts fascinating! For years, it lagged behind the study of USA built Ts seriously began in the 1960s. Myths and legends surrounded what was different, what was better or worse, the when and why of minor differences.
The driver's door, and the simple reason why was of course the most obvious difference. The bodies were made the same to accommodate either right handed or left handed steering necessary for Canadian export (and one left side of the road providence which is an interesting fact in itself!). A single local Canadian body production line built most of the bodies to fit either right hand or left hand steering.
Numerous other car and chassis details were interesting in that often Canadian production lead the way on many changes. A simple detail like the location of the oil filler plug's location on the rear axle housing was moved to its more logical lower place fully two years before USA production made that change. Other more obvious and styling changes like the one-man folding top, and the fancier slanted windshields on open cars came along nearly three years before USA production went those steps (1920 versus 1923).
As far as I know, nobody has yet found factual information about whether some of those changes were done deliberately that way? Or did Ford of Canada simply go their own way some times? Clearly, Canadian and USA worked together on most design and technical changes. Most major model changes were pretty much hand in hand.
The whole USA and Canadian production thing to avoid import taxes was a bit bizarre and (for lack of a better word) incestuous by nature. Most of the outsource parts manufacturing companies were in fact owned as subsidiaries of the USA companies that provided many of the parts for USA production. Clasco (sp?) Lamps was largely owned by one of the top three lamp producers for Ford USA (I forget offhand which one?), and one of the largest producers of bodies for Ford of Canada was largely owned by Fischer Bodies of the USA. Fischer was one of the lesser of the top five producers of bodies for Ford USA, and even continued providing bodies for Ford for some time after they were acquired by General Motors. (The 1924 model T Ford Coupe I used to have had a Fischer body on it.)
Not all bad. Those companies had to keep production moving at a fast pace in the USA! Molds, patterns, dies, and jigs to aid in production wore out, and had to be replaced often. The slower pace for Canadian production allowed them to use such tooling a bit longer. So the USA parent companies would ship worn but still usable tooling across the lakes to keep costs down for Canadian production. Meanwhile, the Canadian subsidiaries employed thousand of Canadian workers with meaningful jobs at good pay (relative to the times).
The MTFCI (Model T Ford Club International) has a very good judging system, and every year awards high quality restorations of model T Fords trophies and recognition for quality and attention to detail and authenticity. Their judging guidelines book is updated almost every year, and about four years ago they made a big push to expand the Canadian sections of those guidelines. Russ Furstnow is the Head Judge in the club, and spent many (hundreds?) hours over a couple years on the Canadian expansion! They take "getting it right" seriously!
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Thank you Walt G!
I often comment on how little hobbyists actually knew about model Ts back in the 1950s. Most of what was "known" was actually from people's faulty memories from days long since gone. And oh boy did they remember a lot of things wrong!
A handful of serious model T collectors began actually studying era photographs, sales literature, and other sources to figure out what really went on and when. Building an accurate timeline for the hundreds (thousands?) of changes to the model T Ford has been a long and arduous task. At the risk of not mentioning a dozen other very important contributors, it was to some extent spearheaded by Bruce McCalley who as editor of the MTFCA's magazine "The Vintage Ford" for a couple decades pushed for research and accuracy of facts that really got the research going in the right direction.
Bruce, sometimes himself and sometimes in collaboration with another great model T expert, published several books on the subject. Those books were basically the first to be truly more than inaccurate "remembrances". Definitely not to in any way disparage the likes of Ralph Stein or Floyd Clymer (or many others), however most books published before the late 1960s contain a lot of errors and misinformation in their pages. The hobby owes a great deal of gratitude towards those earlier writers and publishers that greatly improved understanding and interest in early automobiles! Without those earlier works, there might not even be an antique automobile hobby today? (Okay, that probably would not have happened, but should be considered?) Your good friend and mentor Henry Austin Clark was certainly a collector ahead of his time!
It was the moving and opening of the Benson Ford Archive about thirty years ago that provided detailed looks into many of the changes made. However, historic research is tricky. No single source should be believed outright! The Benson Ford Archive provided detailed looks at recorded changes made, most of which were dated. However, the dates are suspect. Many were dated before planned changes were actually made, and the actual change could be moths or even a year or more before it actually happened. Other recorded changes were dated after the change had actually been made, and may have been dated on the date someone decided to write the date on the card, or by memory, the date given might have been wrong? A few recorded changes, with dates on them, were found for "changes" that never actually happened! There was an interesting discussion about that on the MTFCA forum by a couple researchers that found such "changes" in the archives. The change cards did not record that the decision to make a change was rescinded.
In the model T world still, today, discussions come along over and over again, pointing out era sales literature or information published in books more than a half century ago, claiming the information as accurate. Sales literature is often not accurate. Often they were intended to make the car more appealing than it really was (longer, lower, prettier than it really was?). Sometimes the marketing department would make a decision (like making the wire wheels standard equipment on the model T Ford in 1926), only to have demand outrun production capability making it impossible to actually do so.
Fun stuff!
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The model T is likely a 1917 or 1918 model. Some chance it could be an early 1919 model. Ford introduced the starter and generator (electrics package) and the demountable clincher wheels and rims for 1919 as standard equipment for the center-door sedans and the coupes. Intended to begin with the model year change about September of 1918, some delays in part's production pushed the improvement back to December of 1918.
Both the wheels and the electrics package became standard equipment on the two enclosed body styles at that time. Only cars without the electrics package got oil sidelamps from the factory! Those, and the wheels are clearly non-demountable rim type make the car earlier than 1919 calendar year.
Model T touring cars and roadsters (the open cars) began getting the electrics package and demountable rim wheels AS AN OPTION about spring of 1919. Open cars those remained an option through the end of model T production.
A researcher's nightmare trivia. Some sales literature in 1926 and 1927 said that the demountable wheels and starter would become standard equipment on the open cars as well as wire wheels becoming standard equipment on closed cars later in 1926 or 1927. But it never actually happened. A collector I met many years ago had the original sales receipt for a loss leader 1927 roadster, non-demountable wheels and no starter, sold in May of 1927, mere weeks before production ended!
Wonderful photo! Thank you.
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Some number on the car needs to match some number on the title. Rules vary from state to state and car to car. Beyond that, ninety percent of all antique automobiles the whole "numbers matching" business is a bunch of buffalo bagels!
The only collector cars that "numbers matching" really matters is some 1950s sports cars and 1960s and later muscle cars (none of which I have much interest in!). The muscle car crowd is the one that goes nuts for "numbers matching", and initially for a good reason. So many muscle cars back in their days were modified over and over again. Finding a real survivor became a challenge! And having engine and chassis numbers that matched became a way to at least think one had an unmolested car. However, over the past thirty to forty years so many muscle cars have been "restored" from total wrecks that even having numbers that match doesn't really mean much without real known provenance!
I have seen an engine and firewall from a crash and burn "restored" by replacing ninety-five percent of the car, later sold as a "numbers matching" car.
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I remember seeing a few of those back when I was in high school! Yeah, an interesting idea, not thought quite all the way through. Some damage prevention advantages, but also significant downsides.
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Interesting pictures!
Thank you.
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In the days before large enough hydraulic lifts became common, that method of working on the underside was not unusual. I have seen numerous photos of cars hoisted up and propped on stands or braced wooden timbers like that. Sometimes they look a little scary.
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The white walls do look nice in an era photo. However, it is almost certainly a staged sales photo of some sort. Great shot though.
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Such a wonderful street scene! I want to climb into that photo and just stay there! Although knowing the couple decades coming would put a damper on things. If I could just stay a few days, take in the sights, sounds, and smells of the era. Probably a jazz club nearby?
So many cars in that photo that I would love to have now.
Thank you.
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A lot of really fine automobiles there!
Did I see two 1930ish Marmons?
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I would bet the baby gets told some wild stories when a little older?
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Quality of workmanship also makes a big difference to most buyers. Although personally, I don't like them over-restored. That just wasn't how they were done back in their day. But I don't like ones that look like a trash pile either.
A bigger issue to me is that I want to see speedsters, whether truly original, total recreations, or put together from remnants of original era speedsters, I want them to represent some particular type of speedster with appropriate for that era accessories and/or modifications. There were several distinctively different eras and styles of speedsters. The real "speedster" era ended about the same time the model T Ford ended production. The 1930s transitioned into other styles which eventually became "hotrods" after WW2.
Certain styles were common on brass era and late 1910s speedsters, other styles more popular in the early 1920s. Too many people in the hobby do not build or restore speedsters correctly.
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Are those model T Ford sidelamps, or after-market knockoffs made and sold by the same companies that made the lamps for Ford? After-market versions were made using the same patterns and dies as used to make the lamps for Ford, and were sometimes identical to the Ford lamps, and sometimes had subtle differences.
I have an odd pair (not complete as I swiped a couple parts I needed for my model T) of after-market commercial lamps that clearly were made by the same companies that Made Ford's lamps, and over the years have seen several others. The pair I have mount on a single bolt out the back of the lamp just like the Ford lamps were mounted. Some of the after-market lamps mounted on a single bolt out one side instead. My pair has smooth big clear lenses without the ripples in circles like the Ford lamps had, and also has a smaller clear lens on one side, mirror images of each other (a right and a left lamp). Originally, these were often mounted on the back of the cab of trucks so workers could see to load or unload the truck at night.
It is a long story why, but late in model T production, the non-starter model Ts had an odd tail-lamp that was sort of the earlier more common version turned sideways. It was called the "Ford-O" tail-lamp. Ford-O tail-lamps are quite common today and not worth much because nobody really wants them. They were lousy tail-lamps when new, the red tail lens was too small and the clear license plate lens was too large, the combination proved not very effective. So when the loss leader non-starter cars were purchased new, many purchasers replaced the silly Ford-O lamp with a used easily gotten cheap older Ford tail-lamp. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of Ford-O tail-lamps found themselves sitting on barn shelves for decades only to be found and kept later. I personally have seen probably fifty Ford-O tail-lamps at swap meets, and have one of them in nearly NOS condition sitting on a shelf in my "barn" (it came in a box full of Ford lamps and parts that I bought years ago)!
Just some unusual information about oil lamps of the era.
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Looking good!
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The model T appears to be a 1924 or 1925 model. A few 1924 models in a couple body styles began early production about July of 1923. Those early production "1924" models cause a lot of arguments in the model T world over whether they are "1924" models or "1923" models". The high style radiator with the lower valance/apron does not go any earlier than that. So the "white background" license plate cannot indicate a 1922.
It is also possible that the model T could be a model TT truck, which used the same radiator shell and fenders through 1926/'27 as did the 1924/'25 cars.
I wish I could see a much better picture of the model T. The details are not very clear, and not much of the model t can be seen. I can't even be a hundred percent sure that the T isn't a 1926/'27 model car? Although I do think I can see enough of the fender to believe it isn't an "improved" model T of 1926/'27. The general dimension ratios of the front wheel indicate that it is a clincher type, or 30X3 1/2 or possibly even a 30 X 3 non-demountable wheel. It would be unusual for the car to have non-demountable wheels that late, however it was a factory option, and although very few cars today are restored that way, they do show up fairly often in era photographs.
Also, to me? It looks like the license plate has white numbers on a dark background? What years would that be?
More than you wanted to know about the old Ford?
Stoogenberg
in General Discussion
Posted
I keep checking back hoping someone has a better picture of the car and posts it?
I don't know if they ever had a Duesenberg themselves or not. I have read a few times that they never got paid a lot for all the films they made. I am not sure how much truth there is to that story?