pfloro

I still miss the styling of my Toronado. For it's size and older technology, it still had good manners and was a true highway cruiser. Towards the end of my ownership, there were times when I just wanted it gone. However, I had many, many miles of smiles driving that big old sofa... Paul

The Toronado Caliente was an appearance & trim "upgrade" from the Brougham. The only significant technical upgrade was the standard electronic instrument cluster. The voice reminder system was optional. From my service manual studying (years ago), I didn't see a "speed alert warning" function as part of the electronic instrument cluster. Note that the optional "Reminder Package" offered warnings (via the chime module) for several engine functions. The sensors for one of these warning detectors may be malfunctioning causing the intermittent chiming. The OP will have to provide additional input so we can be of assistance... An easy way to tell if this car was ordered with the Reminder Package is to look under the hood at the windshield washer reservoir fluid pickup. If there is a 2 prong electrical connector, then the reminder package is present. The switch will close when the fluid level drop to a low level. This sensor didn't sound the chime but others (low coolant, high engine temp, high-low voltage) will... Paul

The '79 -'85 Toronado did not have a speed alert warning... Paul

For several reasons, get the factory service manuals (especially the Electrical manual). It will be invaluable in troubleshooting this problem. The color wiring schematics spell everything out. I owned a new & highly optioned 1984 Toronado Brougham for 28 years & 200,000 miles. If my memory serves me correctly, the "multi-function" chime module has 3 different chime speeds. The slowest is for: key-in ignition + door open, unfastened seat belts, etc. The mid-speed is for: headlights on + door open, etc. The high speed is for: low engine coolant, etc. What is the chime speed which you are hearing? The problem could be as simple as worn/dirty contacts in the seat belt buckle or the ignition switch lock mechanism. Isolating the problem is the key to solving it. It's possible that the chime module itself has gone bad but I suspect that would result in either a continuous chime or no chime. Get the manuals, put on your Sherlock Holmes hat, and get busy...! Paul

I know that 60FlatTop (Bernie) tells us to never say: "I thought"...! However, I thought that the rubber formulation changed a few decades ago. This provided a more responsive and safer tire but at the cost of faster deterioration of the rubber. If there is any truth to this, it might explain why tires manufactured 60 years ago are soft & pliable and may be "safe" for limited road use. We need the experience of a chemical engineer who worked decades ago in the tire industry. Paul

I'm not sure what you mean? When I said "get inside the loom", I meant separating the loom at the split so you could trace the wires. Knowing where the other end connects will aid in properly reconnecting the now "loose end". Paul Paul

If you are committed to getting this car back on the road as a safe and reliable piece of transportation, the answer is YES...! From studying these manuals, you will learn a million things about this era of automobiles. When my mom bought her 1982 Cutlass Supreme, she bought the shop manuals for me. Even thought I didn't order my 1984 Toronado for 2 more years, I spent many hours reading the 1982 manuals. They were invaluable in my understanding of the Computer Command Control system and SO much else. Paul

Without standing over your engine bay, it's quite difficult to decipher all of these wires and connectors. Most of the ones in question appear to be non-CCC. 1) The copper braided "strap" is the engine to body ground. This one is important because it provides the "return electrical path" from the body to the battery. The negative cable from the battery connects directly to the engine block. Then the block electrically connects to the body via this braded strap. 2) In your last picture, the red wires you are holding are the fusible links. Notice the thick rubber sleeves near the eyelets and also a bit further away. Those 2 wires enter the plastic "split loom". There is really not much more I can do to help at this point. That poor engine room has been banged up and it does look quite scary. I still think that looking at a comparable bone yard car (with somewhat intact wiring) would help. I don't think a manual of any sort exists to show the wire routing and connections. The shop manuals have schematics which are invaluable. If you are willing to trace out each of these wires (gotta get inside the split looms), you can put it back together. Keep at it, Paul

Not knowing your specific model, I'll do my best here. Based upon what side of the engine the starter is located, (driver's side for this model...???), the connections will be grouped on that side. The largest diameter (positive/red) cable from the battery connects to the large starter stud (it has a big eyelet). There will be a couple of somewhat smaller "cables" also with eyelets ganged on that same starter stud. There are called "fusible links". The calibrated size wire (fuse wire) inside the plastic jacket is designed to melt in case of over-current. These fusible links and the big red battery cable may be wrapped together. At least one of these "smaller" wires will find it's way to the alternator o/p stud. Another will route into the "bulkhead" connector on the firewall near the booster/master cylinder. FYI: The bulkhead connector (1 or 2) is the way engine room wiring is passed into the passenger compartment (behind the dash). Back to the starter wiring: there will be a small wire (pink or purple ??) which connects to the small stud on the starter. This connects the starter soleniod to the "start" position on the ignition switch. When you turn the key to start, 12 volts energizes the starter soleniod. Internally, the soleniod moves the starter drive into the ring gear and at the same time, connects the battery cable to the high current starter windings. IMO, what I've detailed above is pretty universal for all GM cars of this period. The Electrical Service Manual will show this in great detail. Paul

Several CCC components & their connections will be common across multiple car lines with that engine in the early CCC years. The Rochester carb. (2 or 4 bbl) has 2 connections (the 2 pin blue connector on the top is for the MCS (Mixture Control Soleniod)). This solenoid is driven by an O/P voltage from the ECM which controls the idle & part throttle air/fuel mixture. The 3 pin connector on the left front of the carb is the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). This sensor provides an I/P signal informing the ECM how far the throttle is opened. The distributor has a 4 pin connector which is used for the EST (Electronic Spark Timing). These distributors do not use mechanical or vacuum methods to control the timing advance. The ECM handles it all (...and quite effectively). The intake manifold has a 2 pin Coolant Temperature Sensor. This is NOT the sensor which triggers the "HOT" dash light or engine temperature gauge. Of course there is the 1 pin oxygen sensor which sits in the end of one of the exhaust manifolds. Your engine most likely has the A.I.R. (Air Injection Reaction) system (aka: air/smog pump). There are 2 - 2 pin ECM connectors which direct & switch the air to either the exhaust manifolds or catalytic converter. There is also the 3 pin MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor which is mounted on one of the plastic fender liners. It has a rubber vacuum hose connected somewhere on the intake manifold. This sensor provides information to the ECM about engine load. In the CCC harness near the carb connectors, you will see a single spade connector with a bright green cover. I can see it in one of your pictures. This is a CCC diagnostic test point. It is connected to a dwell meter (6 cylinder scale) and allows you to trim the idle mixture while actually seeing the CCC system work. I was blown away when I first used this diagnostic. Those GM engineers were pretty smart. FYI: The basic air/fuel metering method which GM used in this "primitive" CCC system is still used today in all fuel injected (port & direct) engines. It's called PWM (Pulse Width Modulation)...! As best as possible, carefully clean both the male & female sides of the sensors & connectors. I'm sure small brass brushes are available for thus purpose. You want clean, tight, "0" resistance connections... Paul

That's why the 1984 Electrical Service Manual (original paper printing) will be of great help. The diagrams are in color, show all the inputs & outputs, and wire color/sizes. The section I speak of is specifically for the CCC system. Of course, this manual has diagrams for all the other electrical systems (starting, charging, lighting, etc). It is an invaluable resource. Paul

Some or many of the connectors that need reconnecting are part of the CCC (Computer Command Control) engine management system (light green "weather-pack accordian booties). GM began using this system in 1981 for all it's passenger car lines. Compared to today's systems, it was primitive. However, when set up correctly, it worked quite well and was reliable. You are going to need both the Buick 1984 Chassis & Electrical Service Manuals. These will help you learn about the inputs & outputs of this system. Although certain components were shared between car lines, engines, etc., the CCC harness is unique to your model year & engine. The connectors look crusty which is never good for any computer system. Resistance, opens, or shorts in the wiring/connections will throw the ECM (Electronic Control Module) into a tailspin. In 1984, the built in diagnostics were primitive but can be of help. Your best bet would to be find a 1984 GM "A" body car In a bone yard with your V6 and an intact ECM harness. To a decent degree, you would then be able to trace things out. BTW: the "eyelet" connectors are CCC system grounds. I do speak from personnel experience here. I owned my 1984 Toronado for 28 years/200,000 miles, studied the manuals cover to cover, and serviced the CCC system myself. This car had the 307V8/4bbl and the CCC system was a bit different than my mom's '84 Cutlass with the 231V6. For your sake, I wish your delima was simple but alas, it's not. Paul

In my understanding, directing the trans fluid to the external cooler first is the best option. In cold weather driving, the in-tank radiator cooler can then "re-heat" the trans fluid before it returns to the transmission. I don't think it's good to have cool fluid continuously circulating in the transmission. This is the way I plumbed the external cooler in my 1984 Toronado. Paul

Don't waste anymore time with this OP. He is a "OPW" (One Post Wonder). I've had it with these people. They are selfish takers. We're the words "Please" or "Thank You" used in his initial request? Yes..., I know that we all lead busy lives. However, when one asks for help on this great forum, it is their responsibility to 1) follow the topic, 2) do homework, 3) answer questions from others who are trying to help. It's no different than when selling something. As my mother would say: "They can just SCHOTTA! It's an Italian slang meaning bust. Paul

Oops..., My error. I wasn't aware that GM converted to R134a prior to around 1994... I hope the OP responds so that we can help... Paul

Yes..., Ben Bruce is correct. In your case, Given the car's age and mileage, it may be cheaper to replace the radiator. I suspect that by 1991, GM may have started using aluminum cores with plastic tanks. That configuration cools well and they are durable. Replacement radiators should be available without a problem... Paul

R134 is a less efficient refrigerant than R12. It operates at much greater pressures (especially the high side (condenser)) and greater temperatures. This increased heat is being directly transfered into your engine cooling system. Some cars tolerate R134a without a hiccup, others don't.

It sounds like you had a knowledgeable and experienced auto A/C mechanic. Did he explain to you that one of the problems which effects some R12 -> R134a conversions is less idle & low speed cooling? Here's why: The condenser in your Olds (even though it's new) was designed for R12. Simply put, R134a needs more condenser surface area to transfer the heat from the high pressure gasous refrigerant to the air. Unless that happens, some of the R134 doesn't condense back to a liquid and can't evaporate again (and absorb heat) in the cabin evaporator. Look at auto A/C condensers in post 1995 cars (which are R134a based). They have a much denser configuration (more surface area). The tubes are flat, there are many more rows, and there are many more fins between them. Many of these designs use "parallel flow". Instead of the high pressure gas "surpentining" back & forth, it enters a vertical cylinder at one side. The refrigerant then flows across the flat tubes in parallel to a vertical cylinder at the other side. This is all about getting maximum efficiency within the "small" condenser footprint. What can you do: 1) The most practical solution is going back to using R12. I don't know if NOS or recycled R12 is even available anymore. 2) This is probably not practical and prohibitively expensive. Have a custom condenser built to fit your footprint, etc. which is designed for R134a. IMO, Under no circumstances should you use any of the Drop in R12 replacement blends (with those kooky names). They are at best, a cheap short term "fix" and can cause havoc over time. *** I'm not an A/C expert but have studied refrigeration for decades. There is alot of information about your exact problem on the net. Much of it is written by engineers and auto A/C service people. I have spoken to my trusted HVAC man about this over the years and he agrees. Did you ever wonder why the outside condensing units for multi-ton home systems (not mini-splits) became so big? The newer residential HVAC systems use R410a which is somewhat similiar to R134a. The condenser requires a larger surface area than was needed for the old R22 refrigerant. For a residential system, going larger is not a big problem. However, for an automobile... Oh Boy... Paul

If this the cause, what is the fix...? Referencing the wiring diagram segment below: Relay connection #3 powers the horns when the relay is energized. Connection #1 is always hot. Connection #2 is the relay coil. It is grounded and the coil is energized when the contacts in the steering wheel pad close. To verify if the steering wheel pad contacts are the problem: Disconnect the relay connector. With an ohmmeter, measure the resistance from connector #2 to ground. If zero ohms, the steering wheel pad (or wiring) is the problem. If infinity, the problem is at the relay or "beyond"... Paul

As rocketraider noted, an alarm pin switch or the associated wiring may have "shorted to ground" causing the horn to sound. However, the factory or aftermarket alarm systems I've worked with over the years "cycle" the horn (short honk, pause, short honk, repeat...). If an alarm system exists, it's controller may have failed causing a continuous "energizing" of the horn... Also (alarm system or not), the little spring inside the horn relay may have broken causing the "high current" contacts to close. I would rule out an alarm system (if present) before doing anything else... Think like Sherlock Holmes...! Paul

I'm pretty sure that the last American carbureted engine was the Olds 307 V8 which was made through the 1990 model year. It was used from 1980 and GM didn't see the need (those bean counters...!) to convert it to FI (even throttle body) because it easily met emission standards. Paul

Thank you, Rusty... I gained more knowledge... Paul

I'm not an expert with these engines, but... Is the bottom end intact...? If so, why not remove only the cylinder head...? Paul

I believe Chrysler offered it as an option in 1972 and then made it standard across the board in 1973. I'm not sure, but I believe GM made HEI standard in 1975 when catalytic converters arrived. I don't know when Ford joined in... I carried a spare EI module for the 12 years I owned my 1973 Plymouth Duster. Throughout ~116,000 miles, I never needed it (and never had to fiddle with the timing either)... My sister-in-law had a 1965 Valiant and my brother would remove the distributor from the slant six to change & adjust the points...! Of course EI is not perfect but in my experience, the pros outweigh the cons... Paul

I use the phrase: "a two hankie." Watch it closely. Everyone's emotions and Gram's change is through the facial expressions. It's a beautiful work of art... ...and such a message... On the technical side, I really appreciated the authentic GM starter motor sound... Today's gear reduction starters just don't sound the same. ...and that 8 track tape player...! Paul