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Some years ago, I helped pull a 1912 White gas roadster body out of a barn. The barn had been a three story building but it had collapsed down to a 1/2 story. The body was sandwiched in between two floors with just enough room to snake it out. The car had been taken apart with bits and pieces stored all over. I had hopes it would be put back together but last I knew, it was moved to another barn and was in worse condition.

Boy yall have a funny way of talking.

I only have the one shown. Interested?

Me Too! I have deleted all the pictures in question.

Walt, Like most of the pictures I post, I found this picture on the world wide web and the information I got was the title I gave it. The picture, as posted, did not say it came from an article you wrote. I did not look for an original source. Most of the pictures I have posted were copyrighted by someone at some time but I am not profiting from posting the pictures on this forum and I had this conversation with Peter. If I need to delete all the pictures I've posted in this thread because I did not give credit to the owner of the picture, I am perfectly willing to do so if you think I should. I guess I don't fully understand copyright law. Every picture on the internet was taken by somebody and the rights to that picture are therefore owned by the person who took it. In that most of the people who took pictures in the early 1900s are dead, I guess ownership would naturally flow to the heirs unless specifically willed to someone else. All of these pictures I posted were already in the public domain and viewable by any interested parties. What I did was transfer them from one website to another. If I have done wrong, just let me know and I will make it right.

Here is another period photo I liked.

Ed, I meant no offense. Some people have disposable income and if they do they can throw lots of money at a restoration and as you said, it will eventually get done but not all of us hobbyists can afford to throw money at a restoration and frugality is a measured response. The word, restoration, is a moving target. To go to Pebble Beach will cost truckloads of cash even if someone buys an AACA first place winner and just freshens up the restoration but not every car is or should be restored to Pebble Beach standards. All I'm saying is, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Ok, I just got off the phone with Fred and Johnny was right, he was a delight to talk to, very forth coming and honest. In fact, his honesty and forthright was surprising. Like anything else, once a car has reached sainthood status, most people aren't willing to speak of the warts and to do so is anathema but Fred had no hesitation in speaking of what made the car great and its weaknesses. I was right about the early axles, they were American Ball Bearing, but they changed axle suppliers and I've already forgot the make they changed to. It was a company I am not familiar with. I need about a day to set down with Fred with pencil and paper but he recommended I talk with Tim Kuser. Next time I'll do a zoom call with Fred and Tim. Fred did say there is a reprint of the book coming out with corrections. Turns out there is a fair amount of information in the first book that was wrong. Again, cars that have reached sainthood are routinely attributed with miracles that are in fact, not true. The Mercer, as great a feat of engineering as it truly is, is still a car. I could attribute this quote to Fred but he did not use those words. Thanks Johnny; Fred truly was a delight.

Johnny, Thank you very much for your kind response. From the outside looking in, it seems impossible for the early Mercers to live up to the ascribed greatness heaped upon them, yet, an inside perspective seems to say the greatness prescribed does not measure up to the car. I'm just trying to get to the bones of what made the car so great. Most car companies bought component parts from other suppliers. Even Henry Ford bought axles from Dodge Brothers for the first few years of production of the Ford model T, six years into the company's history. There is nothing wrong with shopping around for the best parts available from the people who are better at making those parts than anyone else. In fact, it would not be wise for a start up company to try to make all these parts themselves, having no experience in doing so. The idea that a car made up of parts supplied by outside suppliers, an assembled car, as it were, is less than a car made up of parts designed and built in house is absurd. Anybody who has ever owned or operated a business would know that. Microsoft and Apple both buy parts from outside sources today and their products are viewed as the best in their field. One internet writer suggests there are only 12-14 true Mercer raceabouts in existence with the other cars being modified true tourings, or assembled from parts, so Johnny's warning to suspect component parts is good advice. As far as I'm concerned, true or not, a Mercer raceabout is a Mercer raceabout. The provenance or lack thereof might effect price, but not the car itself. Yes, a five minute phone call to Fred would likely answer my questions but I am deep in my own restoration and am trying to utilize my time as best I can. Please, I am not trying to ruffle anybodies feathers; I'm trying to ascertain the truth of these wonderful cars, so if I have offended any of you Mercer guys, please forgive me.

Another formula is patience, determination, and intuition. Where there's a will there's a way. We're not all filthy rich.

I had an acquaintance in Texas that tried for years to buy a Haynes car from a guy who had the car stored in a barn. He pestered the poor man to death until he finally relented and agreed to sale. My acquaintance owned the car a couple of weeks before he turned around and sold it. It turned out he never really wanted the car. For him, it was the thrill of the chase.

I am sorry you feel like it is a waste of your time to respond to my question. I understand you are a very busy man and to offer the advice you did took precious minutes of your time. I appreciate your frustration with me and offer you my sincerest apology. I will call the Roebling Museum on Wednesday (the soonest they will be open) and as soon as I get a chance, I'll call Fred. Fred and I have had numerous conversations through the years but I never understood the early Mercers were assembled from parts made by other suppliers till now. As Greg stated, there is one copy of the book you recommended online, otherwise, there are no copies listed, unless the museum still has copies. So even if I wanted to, the book you recommend is not available to me. Again, I am very sorry for troubling you.

Now you can go out and "find" the car every morning. It's the ultimate barn find experience!

I am somewhat dubious that the book contains information like what front and rear axles were used or what brand of steering. This information is usually not contained in "thoroughly researched" books or articles. If you google, Mercer," you will find lots of articles extolling the overall attributes of the car and everything about the car that can be lauded but it is difficult to find anything as basic as wheelbase. I ran into a similar problem when I researched the Locomobile race car known as old 16 and the sister car dubbed #1 in the last race. It was as if to tell any particulars was to, "look up the dress," of the car and was in very bad taste.

I have recently become interested in Mercer . I shied away for a long time because of what I perceived of as hype surrounding the early race abouts. Even today, there is more glory heaped on these cars than actual information. Here we are 110 years later and it is nearly impossible to find any real information about the cars on the internet and the internet is renowned for false information. Now, as a caveat, I have yet to speak to Fred Hoch. I have spoken to Fred at Hershey in years past and had several conversations with him concerning the Mercer he brought to the show. It was always a faded yellow car, coated with dust and dirt. I have been amazed to learn the early Mercers were assembled cars. Now I mean no disrespect, but assembled cars are generally looked down on by the antique car community. Yet, the Mercer, which may well be the greatest early car, is an assembled car. The Mercer engineers found suppliers of component parts and had those suppliers build parts according to their specifications. Now, I don't know anything for certain, but it appears Mercer went to continental and said we want X amount of 40 horse motors and we want a 7-1 compression ratio. Continental made the motors according to Mercer specs and thus was the beginning of a remarkable car. What Mercer did, which was unique in the car world, was to build a light car and give it a quickness that was unparalleled. They set that chassis on 24" wheels, which placed it lower to the ground. I spoke with a friend recently about the car and explained my hesitation. He said he had a opportunity to drive one of the cars and the hype was not overstated. He called the car nimble, a word I had found used in an online article. The nimbleness evidently is attributable to the higher compression and a wet multiple disc clutch, which makes the car easy to shift. The car immediately above, which I believe to be a Mercer, has six bolt hubs. The cars I posted earlier have eight bolt hubs. I hope to speak to Fred in the near future to find answers to these anomalies and better understand what makes these cars so unique.

You say this truck runs and drives so you must've driven out to this location to take the pictures and then magically erased the tracks. That's really slick and a great looking truck. I don't have 50,000 but if I did...

What motor is it? And why were they building one? Airplane?

Its amazing what people will tell you if they believe they can trust you.

JB Weld will totally fix this. Just get the part as clean as you can. I would fill the hole and redrill and tap, and presto, you have a new part! It never worked that way for me but thats what they claim.

I want to set one of those down in a T frame, throw some truss rods underneath the frame to help support the weight, and go racing!

George, Are you sure you need 65 lbs of torque on the head bolts? I remember Chevrolet heads requiring 50 lbs

Notice again, the front hub of this car tapers down to a neck between the hubcap and the flange. The steering wheel of this car has the typical for Mercer ribbed spokes. The 1910 car above was assembled from different components than the later Mercers. I am not very familiar with full floating rear axles. All Mercers appear to have full floating rear axles.

This 1910 Mercer appears to have American Ball Bearing axles. I am just learning about Mercer. My understanding is that in the early days, Mercer had trouble sourcing suppliers and used three different engine suppliers, Continental, Beaver, and Rutenberg. I wonder if the same was true about axle suppliers. While I'm at it, the steering wheel on this car lacks the bottom ribs seen on most Mercer cars. With all the write ups extolling the virtues of the Mercer car, its very hard to find much in the way of specifics. The Mercer below (year unknown) has a different front hub, which means, a different make of front axle. This car, probably 1912, has something closer to a Weston Mott front axle. Notice how the hub is smaller between the hubcap and flange, while the hub of the car above is straight.

Value is another nebulous concept. It used to be that cars brought more money in a auction sale on the West coast than they did on the East coast. If one has to sale to settle an estate or because of illness, prices will be down but if one has time to wait for the right buyer, value will be much different. Value is not just in dollars and cents. I may not be able to get as much money out of my cars as I think they're worth, but that does not make them any less valuable in my eyes. Just because you think my cars aren't worth dirt, does not make it so. While I'm on this tirade, value changes almost monthly. Cars that had little value in the past, now bring big money and cars that sold well in the past, today, well, you get the idea. Sales take place when the buyer and seller agree on the price. Auction sales fall through on a daily basis because of this and there are a lot of factors that go into this. My cars belong to me. If I want them to rot into the ground, so be it. It may be a sad thing to you but in this country, I have that right and no amount of disparaging will change that. I once had a friend who restored a car and took it to an auction to sale. It brought $60,000. Six months later it sold again for $80,000 and six months later it sold for $100,000. Six months after that it brought $110,000 at auction but the final price six months later was $120,000. It went off into a museum and hasn't come up for auction again. It didn't receive any upgrades during this time. How much was the car worth?

Now you know why the guy stopped where he did with this car. For your exhaust manifold, check out Lee Stohr @ https://www.stohrdesign.com/vintage-castings.html