3800 V6 Series question

[Guest Rustbelt]

How can I tell if I have a Series 1 or 2 in my 1990 coupe?

Previous owner said it was a Series 2, but I thought I read recently somewhere that Series 2 wasn't introduced until 1995.

How can I be sure what series is in my car?

[89RedDarkGrey]

'88-'90 have Pre-Series 1 (LN3)

 

'91 have Series 1 (L27)

 

Easy to tell differences are HERE

[DAVES89]

It's in the VIN code "C" means Series 1 [Actually the "C" motor preceedes the Series 1 Accordinging to 2seater. It was a 3 year run motor]. "N" means series 2 [I believe].

[89RedDarkGrey]

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Vehicle_Identification_Numbers_(VIN_codes)/GM/VIN_Codes#American_engine_codes

 

Interesting info for us-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansing_Craft_Center

[Guest Rustbelt]

Thank you guys for the info. I will be seeing the previous owner within the next 2 weeks and will ask him why he thought the engine was a series 2. Will be interesting to hear his explanation. 

[drtidmore]

I suspect that the previous owner confused the formal designation of the engine vs the fact that the LN3 (introduced in 88) was a major redesign of the venerable Buick 3.8 liter V6 engine and therefore he may have thought that the pre-LN3 were series 1 and the LN3 was series 2.  Regardless, 88-90 used the LN3 engine and that engine did NOT have a "series" designation but is very closely related to the Series 1 so it came to be known as the pre-Series1 engine. The major change that the Series 1 brought was 5 more HP thanks mainly to the tuned air intake plenum.  The similarity between the pre-Series 1 and Series 1 is SO close that you can bolt on the Series 1 supercharger with no change to the heads or the engine (the ECM will have to be recalibrated however).  Many Series 1 engines developed issues with the new thermoplastic, tuned intake plenum warping over time, so personally I prefer the pre-series 1 engine.

 

[padgett]

Also the "C" engine had the triple EGR. My '92 Transport with L27 had no EGR and the Series 2 went to a single port EGR. But the easy way is only the "C" engine has the solid plenium (and only the 88 has "3800" cast in the top).

[padgett]

Only real problem in putting a SII engine in a "C" Reatta is the EGR is totally different and the MAF & injectors are bigger. To add an L67, a good base program is from a '94 Park Avenue Ultra (all were supercharged). Of course a 440T4/4T60 can't handle an L67.

[handmedownreatta]

7 hours ago, padgett said:

Of course a 440T4/4T60 can't handle an L67.

whats the weak point?could you hightail through first and second?

[padgett]

Heck GM had to program in an ignition cut during a WOT shift. L67s were scattering 4T65Es in bitty pieces all over the place. BIG warranty issue.

[89RedDarkGrey]

Some very interesting reading here for all of us:

 

Article #1       Article #2      Article #3      Article #4       Article #5        Article #6

[handmedownreatta]

nice links.they remind me of a 1980 cutlass 3800 i installed an edelbrock power pack on.four barrel intake and carb and cam.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/5486PK/10002/-1

[ChrisWhewell]

That's pretty slick, makes me want one

[drtidmore]

15 hours ago, handmedownreatta said:

whats the weak point?could you hightail through first and second?

Pretty much the ENTIRE 440T4!  The 440T4 origins are the TM125 3 speed which was GMs 1st transverse FWD transaxle and the engines it was designed for (ie early 80s) were LOW HP, low torque.  The 440T4 more or less took the TM125 and grafted on a 4th clutch to provide an overdrive gear.  I could write a dissertation on the weak points on the 440T4 when trying to drive more HP and torque thru it.  It was NOT a bad design, just one without a lot of reserve strength. Mild supercharging the pre-Series I engine has been fairly successful against the 440T4 but such pushes the stock 440T4 transmission to the very edge of the design.  In the pre-Series I SC engine used on the Pontiac GP, GM got away with the stock 440T4 other than beefing up the final drive section and the drive shafts/CV joints.

 

The 4T60E began the effort of ongoing upgrades to the design over the years to keep pace with the ever increasing outputs of the various engines that GM mated to the design.  The final 2003+ 4T65E-HD was a fairly robust transmission even against the vastly more powerful LS series V8 and Series III SC 3800. 

 

By the time 4T65E production ended , GM had redesigned and beefed up everything about the old 440T4 design, but at the same time, the family heritage was strong and as has been noted, it IS possible, with some effort, to transplant the mechanical heart of the 2003+ 4T65E into a 440T4 housing while maintaining the 440T4 purely hydraulic valve body and so no need to deal with the issue of electronic controls on the 4T60E/65E transmission.  

[padgett]

Yes GM had continuous improvement going on and the last 4T60 (1991 MY - Pontiac) was reasonably robust. Keep in mind that the original design was for the Iron Duke/Quad 4/2.8 V6 and even the 3800 was a bit of a stretch as can be seem by all the TSBs. I tend to treat my 88 gently.