Manifold finish

[Randy S]

I will be sending my 1934 Packard Standard Eight intake and exhaust manifolds out to be refinished. (Assuming I get them off tonight)

Any recommendations where to send them?

My understanding is that they both should be Gloss Black, Porcelain.

R

[West Peterson]

I would suggest getting the exhaust ceramic coated, as the porcelain does not last very long before it cracks. Since you probably want them to match, you may want to entertain doing them both in ceramic. In addition, I'm told that if you coat the inside of the exhaust in ceramic, you can up your horsepower by as much as 10 percent. Don't know how much truth to that there is, but that's what I was told. In any event, ceramic is supposed to be able to handle up to 1,800 degrees without problems. I had my dad's speedster manifold done with it, but, alas, he has no miles on it yet so I can't give you a follow up report.

[Restorer32]

Does the ceramic of which you speak have the appearance of porcelain?

[Owen_Dyneto]

34 Packard Eight manifolds were porcelainized, a very deep blue/black, almost pure black. I did mine the first time back in the early 60s, and although the intake looks good to this day, the exhaust begins to deteriorate after just a season or so of driving. When I did them the second time, about 3 years ago, I had them done in a very thin ceramic black coating, I believe the company was Jet-Coat or something like that. They do not offer a gloss black, just flat and its a poor substitute for porcelain if you want a show car but for a 90 point car that also a driver its a reasonable compromise in my opinion.

[tbirdman]

Finish Line Coatings in Oregon has a gloss black ceramic coating. I plan to do mine next year so I'm very interested in this discussion. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Randy S]

I'd like to get someone a little closer to home. I think there is someone in Charlotte that does it.

I have plenty of work to do. Two studs broke off in the head and I have one oversized stud probably from a similar experience years ago.

I guess I can get studs and new nuts (Seem to be brass?) from the regular Packard vendors?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Unsure if you're speaking of the head studs or the manifold studs. The manifold studs (with brass nuts) are just standard hardware and can be found easily at any well-equipped place. Try MSC in Harrisburg, or McMaster. The head studs (7/16x20 both ends) are a bit specialized and can be bought as a kit from the various Packard vendors. You'll need the two extra long ones (33 and 34 only) for the coil mounting. While your manifolds are off, take a very close look at the core ("freeze out" to some) plugs in the face where the exhaust manifold mounts. If any doubt at all, replace them; if they leak they can leak antifreeze into the manifold which is not the worst thing, but also can get at your valve guides and stems. Any good auto parts store carries the correct size core plugs.

[West Peterson]

In the January/February issue of Antique Automobile, I ran a story on doing ceramic and powder coating. The ceramic coating can be obtained in high gloss, medium or flat, but at the time I did it, a "deep black" was not available. I did the speedster in an extremely dark gray, as I believe that the original manifold finish was "unfinished" to begin with (see attached). There are reports that the fins created problems as far as using porcelain, and original photos of the engine show that the manifold has a definitely different finish than the intake.

The company I used was in Piqua, Ohio (Aesthetic Finishers -- 937-778-8777)

[Guest JT]

Not sure if this Charlotte outfit does what you're looking for but you can check,

Air Born Coatings in Belmont (704-820-9000)

Also there should be someplace around Mooresville that does coating given all the race related business there.

Are you in Charlotte?

[Randy S]

Airborn Coatings is in Mount Holly near Charlotte. I'm in Greensboro. I talked to Airborn this morning and another outfit in Gibsonville. Same results, no gloss black and the exhaust manifold will not "blend". In other words the rough surface of the manifold will remain the same, only flat black.

Don't know what to do, I want to drive the car but I really want it to look nice. I'm afraid that I won't be happy in long run with the porcelin, and it's expensive for the length of time it will stay nice. I also don't think I'll be happy with the rough appearance of the exhaust manifold and both at flat black......

Well, not going to worry about it today. I'm getting ready to go on the AACA Tour in Vermont. Me, the wifey and our 1936 Ford Pheaton are expecting a wonderful week. I'll hob nob with my fellow Wizzards there and come up with a solution to the Packard situation!

R

[West Peterson]

Do them both in the dark high-gloss grey ceramic. I was told the color tends to get darker with use, but you might want to get a few more opinions. If both your manifolds looked like the one I attached above, I don't think you'd be disappointed.

[Restorer32]

Still, if you're restoring the car there is nothing that really duplicates the look of porcelain. Durability is another matter. Kinda like these new "chrome paints". They have their place but they do not begin to duplicate the look of real chrome, unfortunately.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Airborn Coatings is in Mount Holly near Charlotte. I'm in Greensboro. I talked to Airborn this morning and another outfit in Gibsonville. Same results, no gloss black and the exhaust manifold will not "blend". In other words the rough surface of the manifold will remain the same, only flat black.

R </div></div>

Couldn't you polish the outside surfaces of the manifold before they sandblast the surface and ceramic coat it?

[Restorer32]

I don't really understand what they mean by "ceramic coating". True ceramic would need to be fired. What is the difference between ceramic and porcelain? Is it firing temperature? Is there a technically savvy person here who can explain what is actually meant by "ceramic coating"? I suppose you could polish the manifold before coating it but I still don't think it would pass for porcelain. Is the "ceramic coating" that is being touted anything more than glorified powder coating? I'm always a bit sceptical of these franchised products that claim to be almost as good as what they try to replace but then I tend to be more skeptical than most.

[West Peterson]

Jeff

The "liquid chrome ceramic" is sprayed on in the same way in which "powder coating" is done, then tossed in the oven at 650-degrees for 1.5 hours. Once cooled, it receives an aluminum oxide blasting, then sprayed with "black" ceramic" and a final application of "gloss" ceramic. Last, a final baking. Again, go back to the January 06 Antique Automobile. The cost runs about $200.

It is guranteed to withstand up to 2,000 degrees without cracking. I'm sorry but i do not have any hours on the speedster engine yet, so I cannot give any more personal info than that. The engine is back together now, and being put back in the car, so I should have some personal experience to report by the end of the summer.

[Guest BigKev]

Jet Hot Coatings does a gloss black.

http://www.jet-hot.com/Pages/colors.html

Hope this helps.

[tbirdman]

Randy,

What did you end up doing for your manifold?

[Packard enthus.]

Owen - you are right - but let me add...it wasnt just the Eights - ALL "Senior Division" Packard manifolds, both intake and exhaust, had porclien finish - the Eights, as you say, ALSO the Super Eights, and, of course the Twelves.

This was the case clear up to the end of "real" Packard cars (meaning the "Senior Division") right up to the end of production, and the "gutting" of the "Senior Division" plant in the summer of 1939.

It WAS NOT BLACK. It was a VERY VERY ( did I say VERY) dark GREEN.

The old porclien type finishes are a bit frustrating - about 10 hours of high speed operation, and the exhaust heat starts to crack it. I kept re-doing mine every few years, and finally gave up. Since mine is a "GO" car and not a "SHOW" car, I am not going to bother doing it over (the intakes, of course, dont have that heat - mine are still UNcracked ORIGINAL).

[Restorer32]

As much as I dislike agreeing with Pete Hartmann he is correct. If you look at an original manifold closely you will see that it was originally a green so dark that it appears black to most eyes, mine included. By the way Pete, even the lowly 900 Light 8 had porcelainized manifolds.

[Owen_Dyneto]

I didn't mean to infer that only the 34 Eight (1100) had porcelain, all series did, as did the seniors thru 39. And I beg to differ about the color, it is a very dark blue/black, not green/black. Let me repeat my previous advice; if the car is to be a trailer queen and show car you have no choice but to do both in porcelain. If its to be a high point driver, I've been very satisfied with porcelain on the intake, and the Jet-Coat or Jet-Hot black (semi-gloss) ceramic on the exhaust. It's been several years now w/o any significant degradation. Enclosed pix shows the original porcelain on the intake, and the ceramic on the exhaust.

[Packard enthus.]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As much as I dislike agreeing with Pete Hartmann he is correct. If you look at an original manifold closely you will see that it was originally a green so dark that it appears black to most eyes, mine included. By the way Pete, even the lowly 900 Light 8 had porcelainized manifolds.</div></div>

What's this all about ? Why would any of us "dislike agreeing" with any other car buff ?

C'mon...Restorer32 - get it off your chest ! What did I say about manifolds (or anything else ) that upsets you ? Let's discuss. I think we all benefit from discussing the technicalities of our love of Packards.

[Restorer32]

Relax Pete, I was just rattling your cage a bit. We all know you have a way sometimes of antagonizing folks with your opinions. Obviously you are very knowledgeable but sometimes I think you are probably the only man who was ever punched by Dale Carnegie.

[tbirdman]

I talked to a guy in So Cal who has had multiple manifolds done by PRAIRIE AUTO PORCELAIN. He swears by his work. He said he has no trouble with the porcelain carcking, and he has driven his cars on Caravans. He did say that there is a burn in process once you install the manifold back on the car. Price for a 37 V12 manifold was about ~$1200.

The contact at PAP is Tom Sparrow and his cell phone is 507-645-5325.

[bernardi]

Am I missinhg something? I can't see the attachment for the manifolds.

[Packard enthus.]

RE : 32's comment about me being punched out by Dale Carniege

wrong - I have been punched out more than once when a young buck. Lost more fights than I won.

But I can assure you of this - had you looked inside the ambulence, on most of those fights I lost and seen me, and the guy who beat me, you would have had a hard time telling which of us was the winner, and which was the loser...!

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I talked to a guy in So Cal who has had multiple manifolds done by PRAIRIE AUTO PORCELAIN. He swears by his work. He said he has no trouble with the porcelain carcking, and he has driven his cars on Caravans. He did say that there is a burn in process once you install the manifold back on the car. Price for a 37 V12 manifold was about ~$1200.

The contact at PAP is Tom Sparrow and his cell phone is 507-645-5325. </div></div>

I spoke with Tom Sparrow at PMP. He said he has good luck with Packard manifolds. He said the success of the Porcelain has to do with a couple of things. The engine tuning: engines that run lean will have hotter exhaust. Richer is better for the manifold porcelain. The shape of the exhaust. More repairs, the harder it is to get the Porcelain to hold up.

They also can use optional cermaic coating on the inside of the exhaust manifold to keep the heat away from the porcelain.

I'll guess I'll try him this winter. 1-2 week turnaround.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They also can use optional cermaic coating on the inside of the exhaust manifold to keep the heat away from the porcelain. </div></div>

I've been told that this process smoothes out the inside of the manifold, thus increases horsepower. I wonder just how calculable that increase would be. I've been told 10% more hp, but that doesn't seem feasable to me. We did it on the 734 Speedster, but the engine's not quite back together yet, so I can't tell you how well it works.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: West Peterson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They also can use optional cermaic coating on the inside of the exhaust manifold to keep the heat away from the porcelain. </div></div>

I've been told that this process smoothes out the inside of the manifold, thus increases horsepower. I wonder just how calculable that increase would be. I've been told 10% more hp, but that doesn't seem feasable to me. We did it on the 734 Speedster, but the engine's not quite back together yet, so I can't tell you how well it works. </div></div>

I'm not about to put my Packard on a dyno...I leave that up to you West.