Maybe I Read Too Much

[ol' yeller]

I have been reading here since I bought my 1990 coupe last May, contributing when I have something of value. I find many of the posts helpful and informative. The problem is that by reading all this, you people are scaring me. I own 2 other collectable Buicks, 1965 Skylark and 1969 Riv, and they are the great joys of my spare time. The Reatta is a great riding, good looking, interesting car and I love it but it seems it is fraught with problems from the posts listed here. My car only has 87K on it and has exhibited none of the problems I read about here. I don't need to use it as a daily driver. Here is my dilemma. This car is too nice to leave in a garage and not drive, plus I believe that cars are made to be driven. If I drive this car as much as I want to, it will soon have the 160,000 miles that most others have and it will be of little value. I am thinking of selling it and passing my dilemma on to someone else. I'd appreciate hearing other's thoughts on this. Are these cars worth holding onto in hopes of appreciation? I realize we are talking several years before enough die off to make them something more than collectable. I didn't buy this car to make a killing on it as as investment (anyone who thinks that way on most old cars is dillusional) but I don't want to pour good money after bad. What do you think?

[padgett]

Have bought five new cars over the years - 1967 Camaro, 1970 Buick GS, 1972 GTO Station Wagon (was working at GM), 1978 V-8 Sunbird (just sold), 1990 Bonneville. <P>Lost count of the number of not-new cars I have bought over the years long ago. Used to buy one every fall, fix up over winter, and sell in spring.<P>Not for profit, just as a form of relaxation. <P>Didn't buy the Reatta (first Buick in thirty years, first non-Pontiac in 20) for appreciation, bought it because I wanted a larger Fiero (mine is now in back garage) for my daily driver (more like weekly - to Airport early in week, back late).<P>Have two other vehicles with 3800/4T60, I just like that combination. Came close to buying a '92 Regal GS for slightly less money/same mileage as Reatta but just was facinated by all of the toys.<P>Now, if you look at the bulk of the postings, they are about the same things that fail on all cars, just here, owners expect them to work, and want to fix them.<P>Am on a couple of other lists as well - the Fiero one is mainly for people wanting to stuff the max cubic inches into a Fiero - SBC conversions are common. The Grand National guys are into sub-12-second 1/4 miles with a 3800. They often don't care if the radio works.<P>The bulk of the postings I see are people trying to understand modern computer cars, just like here. Nothing really new - I use the same techniques to keep my 86 Fiero running as the 88 Reatta, just the Reatta has a P4 computer instead of the older C3.<P>Point I am trying to make is that the Reatta is no more and, thanks to this newsgroup, probably easier to maintain than other cars. <P>Further any time you have a specialty, low production car like the Reatta, there are going to be problems, particularly whith the specialty parts.<P>At the same time this group seems to have no desire to morernize - I see a lot of complaints about the TEVES *but no questions about replacing it with something else*. Suspect it would be simple to retrofit with a '92 Sunbird or TranSport ABS and even easier to put together a non-ABS package just like 99% of the other cars on the road. Have seen no requests for that.<P>As to the cars of the '60s, yes they were simple to work on. That is because *none* of them worked very well. A carburator is a "poorly controlled leak" and the ignition system was some engineers best guess 30 years ago when we had things like 100 octane leaded gas.<P>On a good day, my Judge gets about 13 mpg (11 a more likely average) of the 93 plus and ounce of CAM-32 per tank. Sure it bellows and pressess you back in the seat but even at 1 old style hp/cid it is really pretty inefficient.<P>OTOH the Reatta is perfectly happy on a straight diet of 87 and loafs along at 2000 rpm cruise and 20+ mpg with the computer constantly varying the mixture and advance to run best on the fuel it has.<P>Am biased - have preferred FI since the '60s, just units then were very expensive - one big reason Chevvy went from the FI 327 to the 396/427/454 was because the big block was a cheaper "power module" to make/buy (look at the price sheets from '65 when both were avaiable). Today they are everywhere.<P>Computers are also - last time in DC I had a new LeSabre and you would be surprised how much of the electronics had the same systems as the Reatta, just with different expressions. Sure it had an analog speedo but it is all electronic and has an english/metric switch - push and the needle moves waaay up.<P>Radio and diagnostics are similar too with a digital readout on the left side like I keep talking about. Only difference is choices but can switch from oil pressure to odo to mpg with one stroke.<P>So, yes vent windows are going to command insane prices (until they get repro'd which they will).<P>Personally, it is a car for me to drive and am slowly getting it the way I like it (lowering the seat an inch with flat bar stock is next).<P>Biggest question right now is whether 225x60x16 will fit without problem - for some reason dealers have these but not 215x60x16s.

[ol' yeller]

Padgett, you sound a lot like me. I joke with my wife that some guys like to change wives every few years, she should be glad I only do it with cars. One thing I do like about the Reatta is how this community cares about these great little cars and all who own them. I haven't seen that kind of comraderie since I was into VWs. I have developed a strange fascination with Buicks over the years so I have been collecting what strikes my fancy, again just for grins, not to make money. What I do know is when I put money into my old Buicks, they will probably appreciate enough to cover most of it. I have done a frame-up restoration of my Skylark and am in the middle of one with my Riv. I am a good wrench but only a fair technician. That is why I like the older cars. No one in their right mind would try to argue that the old muscle cars with their antiquated fuel delivery systems are more efficient than a modern FI car. I have a 98 Regal GS which has more electronic goodies than I care to contemplate. When that car wears out, I will get rid of it and move onto something else for a daily driver. With my Reatta I now have @ $8,500-8,700 into it including my purchase price. I have replaced the brakes, struts, tires and wheels and accumulated a fair collection of manuals. I sense that major mechanical costs are a way down the road as this motor/tranny combination is pretty reliable. I'd just hate to get much further upside down on this car if something else major goes wrong. I am not losing sleep over this, I am trying to spark some discussion as I don't think I am the only one out here that questions his obsessions. Thanks for your opinion.

[Guest Stan Leslie]

I don't about reading too much, but maybe you worry too much. THe 60s Buicks are simpler cars from a simpler time. The Reatta is more complicated and has more electrical and electronic stuff to eventually break. Not a lot different than other luxury cars of that timeframe. The difference might be the availability of some parts. If you enjoy driving the car, keep driving it. I doubt you can find many other cars of that vintage or newer that would cost you much less to drive. Proper maintenance will in most cases prevent major expenses.

[Guest]

Machines are machines. Eventually, mechanical things break down, soldering points start to fall apart, and other parts succumb to general wear and tear. These cars are 10-13 years old now, so with age comes the expectation of replacing or repairing things. FWIW, I baby my 1990 convertible and have never had a single thing wrong with it, but it is an 11-year-old car after all. It's only a weekend driver, but I know that eventually the time will come when something falls apart. You can either buy piece of mind by replacing everything on the car with brand new parts or just buy a brand new car. I love my car and wouldn't dream of parting with it, I imagine you feel the same way with your 60s cars. I just do the best I can in maintaining my Reatta, because it's not a new car any more.

[Barney Eaton]

You guys sure have a way with words, and I agree. There have probably been books written about this car thing we have. There is no cure.<P>I stumbled into the Reatta "thing" in 1991 when the wife was looking for another vehicle. We purchased a burgundy 1990 coupe with 20K+ being used by a female salesperson.<BR>More miles than I liked but clean, well kept car. <P>Now the quest for information began, I learned they also made a convertible in '90 and '91. Always read the automobile classifieds and a '91 convertible showed up in the paper in '93 with 23k. It was overpriced and we negotiated for several months. I finally paid more than I wanted. The wife drove it daily until she retired. The good news was she only drove about 1.2 miles to work, so the miles did not accumulate. Now with 44k it sits in the garage, covered. It goes to shows and occasionally for a pleasure ride, but in Texas you must pick your seasons for a convertible.<P>As Stan noted, these cars are loaded with electronics and there is seldom an easy, quick fix solution. This does not mean they are difficult to fix, just that you must have a service manual and use a logical approach to problem solving.<P>I could go on but am looking at another 1990 coupe that has caught my attention.

[Howard]

I second everything that has already been said. Even the newest Reatta is now ten years old. Cars that old do tend to have problems. The Reatta is a complex car, no doubt, and as such, may have more problems than some simplier cars. But do those simple cars look good in the parking lot? No! Can those simple cars let you amaze your friends and co workers with their CRT touch screens (88 89)? No! When the days driving work is done and your Reatta is safely nesseled into it's garage or parking spot when you turn to look at it one last time does a simple car make you smile? No!<P>As for the problems posted in this forum, well yes there are alot of problems. That's what the forum is for. We help each other with our problems. This is where I go when I need help. This is a problem solving forum. Don't be alarmed by what you see here. Just be thankful that such a Reatta universe is here and is always at your service. If you have a problem, everyone wants to help you solve it. You have a solution to someone elses problem, I know you want to help them too. It's win, win for everyone.<P>Now the investment issue. I frankly don't think the Reatta will, in the foreseeable future, have much investment value. I hold no dreams that I will ever get back the $6300 I paid for it three years ago. When I purchased my car, it had just "turned" 80,000 miles. Now, it has 114,000. I look at it has an investment in personal being, not in money. Looking at it in that respect, I've made a fortune. Howard

[Guest]

Hang in there, Howard. When I got returned from Korea in late 1954, I saw this little red thing in San Francisco -- and fell in love with it. I paid $3805 for my new '55 Thunderbird. I still have it; it has 122,000 miles and now sits covered in my garage. Frank Sinatra's '56 just set a record at auction: $165,000. And remember, there were 53,166 of 'em built in the three years of production. That's a heck of a lot more than the Reatta. Give it some time...and the offshore manufacturers will be producing most any part we need. I've fallen in love with my Maui blue '90 ragtop, and am becoming increasingly nervous about using it as a daily drive. But I just can't have two cars under cover -- and, believe me, the Reatta is a lot easier car to drive than an almost-50-year-old Ford!<P>Jerry Sellers

[Barney Eaton]

I agree with Jerry and many others that the Reatta will eventually be recognized for what it is. <P>Who knows how long it will take, enjoy the car and don't think about the money...my Reatta brings me more joy than those damn shares of Intel, Cisco, Dell and other that have dropped out of sight.<P>Jerry quoted the numbers for the T'bird... some others with bigger numbers that are prized today....... <BR>In 1987 there were 20,193 Buick GN built.<BR>In 1957 they built 47,562 Chevy Bel Air convertibles.<BR>In 1948 Crosley built 28,734 cars<P>Now compare the above numbers with the Reatta total production of 21,751 in 4 model years..... <BR>Get your Reatta NOW while the prices are low and the selection is good.

[padgett]

We all make decisions, just some are simpler than others. When I moved to Orlando in '84 most homes in my neighborhood had pools. I have a garage (well actually two - the conventional two car one in front and another 1000+ sq ft behind the door that looks like a toolshed in back -paid $200 extra to have cathedral ceilings put in - this permits a low (Architectural Review Board approved) roof despite 11' of clearance to pull engines.<P>People labor over their pools, I just need to clean the garage out every year or so (when it cools off again). Is just a matter of priorities.<P>Wife was in favor - she know where I am and what I am doing. Also keep her car like new (well, maybe just a little better...).<P>What people do not seem to realize is just how reliable modern cars are (first Jaguar I had contained detailed instruction in the owner's manual of decarbonizing the valves).<P>Complete overhauls at 50k miles were common and any used car with more was worn out (but generally kept on running). Rust meant large holes in things and road signs often became floorboards. Today a rough surface on bolt threads is a cause for concern.<P>Reattas are different and have more than their share of oddbal problems but is nothing new - I used to buy up Rochester FI units for $50 and a Holley because few knew what they were and no-one knew how to work on them (learned enough to get over 900 cfm out of a 620 cfm FI 8*).<P>Electronic ignitions (Delcotronic) was another and I paid for more than one car by repairing Pontiac/Buick/AMC hood tachs (all by Delco).<P>Interesting cars *always* have odd-ball problems that dealers do not want to touch (care to try to get a Honda 360 serviced ? Not talking about a motorcycle). Suspect it is a lot easier to get things for a Reatta than a DMC.<P>This newsgroup is primarily about fixing problems. As a result, most of the posts you see concern those that have problems. Many of mine are about learning a new car. In my case a low milage, always garaged Reatta that the owners did not maintain (and the number of service tickets make me wonder if the mechanics who worked on it did either). <P>At a show, would be a high 3/low 2 (used to do platinum judging until got tired of picking apart nice cars so have some idea) but for me that is not enough - at a show they do not test the dash lights and I expect things on my cars to work.<P>However because this is a place to bring problems, you see many of those posts but few on all of the cars that have no problems. Further you will see that most of the problems are not anything disastrous but rather the same points where the Reatta is different. Over and over.<P>I really like my car. At the same time I see where there must have been a certain lack of field testing that resulted in some really dumb mistakes - like no "one wipe only" button. Like a marginal cooling system. Like 165 hp and 15x6 wheels on a "luxury performace" car.<P>At the same time, 1986-1991 was a terrible time for the General. Sales were slipping and the bean counters were running things. It is really amazing that the Fiero, Reatta, and Atlante (sp ? - type 57SC ?) were built at all (and notice that all three had drivetrains from high volume models just like the original GTO).<P>Frankly am still trying to find a comfortable position for the seat (headroom Fiero: 37", Reatta 36.9") but will.<P>All in all the Reatta is a remarkable car even with its faults (and the cooling issue is not a problem compared same in the XK-150S roadster with D-cams, banana exhaust, & webers I had thutty-five yar ago).<P>Not to say I do not plan on acquiring a complete set of spare electronics - need that just to recalibrate the ECM and BCM to do what I want them to do (I know - quit talking and start doing - do you have any idea how hot it is on the electronics bench in the back garage this time of year - the a/c is in the front and it is in the back - have plans to mount the a/c cooling fan I took off a 3 ton outdoor unit first. <P>And clean out the back garage, front garage, and den. Is a matter of priorities but you know what I mean.<P>But still have less than $7k (mostly in wheels and tires after purchase price) in it. And that includes the dark blue 1" thich sheepskin seat covers (always wanted some, maybe that is why headroom is a problem...)<P>Oh well, I talk too much.<p>[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: padgett ]

[Guest Greg Ross]

After either or both of you fine gentlemen have clocked 100,000 miles on your Reattas come on back here and discuss economics and reliability.<BR>I've wacked on 100 k in 3 and 1/2 years and bar none, this is the best vehicle I've ever owned. <BR>I do the routine maintainance and I do the repairs as they become necessary. Equate what has been spent vs. mileage vs absorbing depretiation on some up-to-date sheet metal clone and I sincerely believe exceedingly good value has been received.<BR>One only debilitating mechanical breakdown in nearly four years due to a deceased Fuel Pump ain't bad! <BR>I like your approach Padgett and Gerry, don't sweat it, drive it and enjoy.<P>

[ol' yeller]

Thanks everyone for the input. The jury is still out on whether or not I will keep this great little car. Everyone's points are well taken. I have no doubt that I could drive this car everyday for the next 3-5 years with little to no trouble and only routine maintenence. That is not what I bought it for however. I have a modern SUV for my daily commute. This car sits in the garage and only comes out on nice days when the mood strikes me. I still have my Skylark too that I like to drive for pleasure. There is no comparison between the comfort in the air conditioned, leather seated, Reatta and my 36 year old Skylark, especially now that I am fast approaching 50 years on my personal odometer. I like to drive the Skylark because it puts a smile on my face when I do. Also many car shows/drive ins don't allow the newer cars in for display. I like the uniqueness of the Reatta and if I were to attempt a long distance drive, I would probably take it instead of my Skylark. As you can see, I am still torn somewhat. I appreciate the discussion here and the advice. I do feel better about the reliability of my Reatta.