wondering who bought the 34 leBaron speedster

[Dave Mitchell]

I just wondered if anyone has heard who bought the 34 Packard leBaron speedster for 3.2 mill or the DB5 for 2.1. These seem like big numbers to me. Can they be real?

[R W Burgess]

The DB5 is going to Switzerland, owner not publicized.

Wayne

[Dave Mitchell]

I saw that on the CNN ticker last night of all places. I just read the Octane article about that car and it was a press/publicity car and not even one of the 2 used in the movies. People seem to go crazy at auction - if it is even real. I was at a big auction last year and it was impossible to tell if the cars sold or not and I have heard too many stories of cars that are sold before the auction and run through at big numbers to inflate the values to believe that it isn't true.

[alsancle]

On a high profile car like the LeBaron Speedster it is hard to play games. Everyone knows who owns it and if it ends up back with that owner everybody will know the auction was a sham. The consenus there was that the price was more or less appropriate for that car.

A.J.

[Dave Mitchell]

I will agree that on high profile cars it is a bit harder to manipulate them. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this deal, just that the price is a bit higher than other custom Packards. It seems that custom Dietrichs, which are just about as rare, with 3 34 12 conv Victorias and 2 runabouts and a couple coupes, are trading somewhere between 1 and 2 million, and they come up for sale just as rarely as the leBarons. I would argue that these are just as attractive as the leBaron speedster. I happen to like them better in fact and there are fewer fakes. The example here was an older restoration unless it had been recently redone, which seems unlikely as a color change along currently popular trends would have been in order. So it seems to me that adding another million + is a big jump. I know that reports from auctions are not always accurate and sometimes the press is spoon fed information that they don't verify. If you had a similar car to sell, you wouldn't mind if people thought it was worth a little extra. We saw this a lot in the old speculation period when cars sold from one dealer to the next at higher and higher prices until they finally found a real buyer (when it might sell for less than reported sold at the previous 3 auctions) This practice seems to have stopped, but now cars seem to be selling when there is only one bidder going against the reserve and it magically arrives at the appropriate high number. The thing that bothers me is if the cars are "presold", why are they bothering to go through the public auction if not to inflate the prices. I am not saying that this happened in this case, or in any other auction by this firm. There are rumors about things like this happening however and I just wonder why they would do it. Is is a scheme to get people to bring rare cars up for auction? Hopefully a true collector bought this one and not a speculator or someone just showing off how much money they have, and we will see it at some shows. It will be interesting to see if it brings the prices of other Packards up a bit on its coattails.

[alsancle]

Dave,

This is the first time since Harrah sold his that one of the LeBaron (speedster or Phaeton) has come to market that I know of, although I could be wrong. There is at least one Dietrich car per year on the auction block lately. Taste is subjective - I love the Dietrich cars but I understand the premium for the LeBaron.

A.J.

[West Peterson]

I'll agree with you, Al. The LeBarons are the best-looking cars ever built. I believe the old Rossi phaeton sold for $3 mil a few years ago, so it doesn't seem surprising to me that this boattail, with a still flawless (yet "older restoration", whatever that means) brought just over $3. And with both 1934 Dietrich sedans fetching more than $1 mil a piece within the last year, it looks like $2 mil for convertibles is not out of line either.

Dietrich and LeBaron Packards have always been more desirable, in my eye, than Duesenbergs of the same body styles. It's surprising to me that it took this long for their values to surpass them. Although, as Al pointed out, they don't surface very often. There are but a dozen or so Dietrichs and even fewer "real" LeBarons, so I guess it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that it is easier to manipulate Duesenberg prices with more than 200 of them still existing. It's hard to manipulate prices of objects that don't make it to market.

[Dave Mitchell]

I personally like the Dietrich convertible victorias, phaetons and convertible coupes better than either of the leBarons, but that is just personal choice. I will agree that with the exception of the coupes, the leBarons are tightly held - Lee bought his 3 more recently than the Harrah sale as two of those including the blue one came from Gen Lyon, who bought them at the Harrah sale. I doubt that the Nethercutt car will be for sale soon and who knows what will happen with the Bahre collection, but it seems those cars are there for a while. I would guess that the Bahre phaeton as an original car would bring more than the blue car and the Gable car has not only the Gable name, but it was improved by Bohman & Schwartz with the lower windshield etc, so it is arguably the best one of all. The Perkins/Rosi/Bowersox car sold a few years ago and I think brought 1.3 million, a Packard high at the time, although the number seems to climb with time. The sedans were about a mill, but not more, and I haven't heard of any Dietrich convertibles breaking 2, in fact they are closer to 1, with the possible exception of a roadster and a phaeton getting closer to 2. So maybe 3.2 is the right price for this boat tail with an older restoration, and if it really sold for that, it is where the market is. I don't mind if it does go that high, it is ok with me, I hope it gives Packards more respect. My point is that this is so far above the current level of the closest comparable car - the Dietrich roadster say - that it makes me wonder if it is a real number. As far as this one being an older restoration, I saw it in 1990 and it was showing some age on the Harrah restoration. Perhaps it has been freshened up, but I still think that the color on it isn't what is in vogue right now, and if you took it to Pebble, and wanted to really do well, you would paint it. Can you guys really see this car as a contender for BOS at Pebble? Maybe someone with more money than he knows what to do with bought it, and all is above board as you guys say. Do you know who bought it? When it comes to manipulation, I think we are seeing a new type of that in action at the auctions, maybe not in this case, but it seems to be going on. I agree that I think that the Packards have long been undervalued when compared to Duesenbergs and especially French and German cars, but at Pebble they love those foreign cars.

[alsancle]

I think it would be a pebble beach contender with a full restoration. The color right now is criminal. I agree that price pumping happens, but in this case there is no reason as there are no other cars coming to market. The Deitrich Conv coupe with a 12 would probably bring 1.5 to 1.75 fully restored I would think. I know that one needing a full restoration went for 1 a couple of years ago. As an aside, my dad big Al, passed on one of the LeBaron phaetons for 7500 bucks back in the late fifties.

A.J.

[West Peterson]

Actually, I believe David Kane paid $2 for the former Wessel car (convertible coupe). That car, with what, a 10-year-old restoration, still looks as fresh as the day it left the shop.

Dave. Harrah never restored the boattail. He kept it in the same shape and color (black) as he bought it from Jack Nethercutt (66,000 miles), who bought it from Geordie Hormel II. William Lyon bought it at the Harrah auction in 1985 and had Richard Martin restore it to its original color of blue. I believe it was finished in 1989. Lyon sold the car to Bob Lee, who, up until this last auction, owned two of the original boattails.

Now, the answer to your first question: William Lyon bought it back.

[K8096]

Did Kane buy Wessel's silver '37 Twelve convertible coupe too? Wessel also had a nice '37 Twelve club sedan in dark green. Where did that one go?

[Dave Mitchell]

Well, ok if the good General bought it back, that makes perfect sense, it isn't the first car that he has repurchased at an amount somewhat over the market value. Good for him, it will look great there in his fabulous collection. Maybe it wasn't quite finished when I saw it in 1990, as it had some rough edges. I knew that the Wessel car was for sale for 2 mill, but figured that Dave being a shrewd businessman got it for a bit less. Knowing Dave I bet that soon we will see that car in a very elegant dark color and matching chassis, with perfect paint from Stone Barn. Just my preference, but I think that is a more attractive automobile than the leBaron, and real 12s are just as rare. I know that Dave has had a couple of 37 12 coupe roadsters, the green one he sold to a relatively new collector in Indiana, and he may still have one.

I can understand big Al passing on the leBaron for $7500 - that was a huge sum then for a car and he probably could have had a couple of open Model Js for that! It does prove that they have always commanded a premium. He still would have done rather well at that price, but he ended up with some nice iron anyway.

Thanks for the info.

[West Peterson]

I've seen Kane's convertible coupe a few times during the last year, and I'd be surprised if he had it restored again. It may be a 10-year-old restoration, but it would still score 100 points, or a minimum of 99.5 (I think the steering wheel needs to be refinished, but there's nothing else that you could spot). I agree with you, though, the color does not capture anyone's attention, and that is why it has not done very well at the concours in which it has been shown.

[Guest normandie]

Ken Wessel's son has the Packard club sedan.

[West Peterson]

Vertigo, the restoration on Wessell's 34 V-windshield coupe-roadster is older than 10 years, but you're correct, it does not merit the precurser "older restoration," as it is definately still 100 points. If a restoration is done correctly in the first place, it will last.

Dave Mitchell. Another good reason for not repainting that car is because it, like the blue LeBaron speedster, was restored in its original colors.

[Dave Mitchell]

West, I would say that there is still a difference in a fresh restoration and one done 15 or 20 years ago. First of all, in most cases, restoration standards have changed. A car can have maintenance and still look great, (like the 37 1508 Convertible sedan that Dave Miller had, few get that sort of intensive care) but paint seldom stays perfect, and if a car is driven, some damage is unavoidable, and if it isn't driven, that isn't good for it either, electrical connections corrode and gaskets dry up etc. The Nash and the Kane roadster may still well score 100pts at a Grand Classic, but if you take them to Pebble against a fresh restoration, they won't do as well. There are also definite trends in colors that are popular at shows and that do well, and I don't think that the leBaron or the Dietrich fit that current trend, regardless of original color. Most everyone agreed that the 33 12 Dietrich phaeton that Morgan Yost restored to its original mint green was still a 100pt car and had won many points shows, but would be worth more in a different color. Dave Kane repainted that car in dark, dark green and it has done well at concours it is highly regarded now and in the Mozart collection. There was a 745 convertible victoria that had a high point restoration in the original multi tone light green combo with orange highlights, and it also took a very long time to sell. I am not saying that these cars should be repainted, I am saying that having the original color does not help them in shows where anything but authenticity is judged and it tends to harm them in the marketplace, if they don't match the current trends. Shows like Meadowbrook are great shows, and it is fun to go there and see the cars you wouldn't otherwise see, but you have judged there, can you honestly say that originality and authenticity are at the top of the judging criteria priority? These shows tend to disregard originality in favor of what is the flavor of the month, and honor cars that aren't always the best or most accurate restorations. The winners are lauded for what they have done, and how much they have spent and the average hobbiest thinks that they have just seen a perfectly restored car justly rewarded. If it weren't for concours, we would never see ostrich, reptile or manta ray interiors in classics that originally had plain old leather or wool. I am fairly fanatical about putting things back to the way they were, but that isn't always the smartest move in a financial sense and the market and most concours won't reward you. That said, we can hope for the glory of having the nicely restored cars featured in Antique Automobile! I just got my new issue today - fantastic - what you have done with the magazine is just terrific.

[West Peterson]

David

I'm not arguing that the car's wouldn't do well at concours, where the judging is purely opinionated (if not political), just that their restorations have lasted and would stand up to the scrutiny of marque judging. Both the Nash and the Packard took First in Class at Pebble Beach with their "older restorations," but then, Pebble uses a points system and their judges are very knowledgable.

I looked carefully at the paint of Wessel's car this past November, and it is flawless... and Ken did drive that car.

I also saw the mint-green '32 that Kane bought when it sold at Rick Carroll's auction, but its restoration had not stood up to the test of time and wear. It still looked good, but wasn't 100 points, and its original restoration was not on the same par as Wessel's.

Thanks for the comments on the magazine.

Do you still have the 1941 160 limousine that you showed at Pebble? That was probably the finest restoration I've ever seen on a 1941 Packard.

[K8096]

Why would you repaint a car that's almost perfect? Wessel's Dietrich made it's debut in about 1990. It's still almost perfect. He barely drove it. Pay 2 million for a car & then rerestore it? Talk like this is why average income people are becomming increasingly alienated with the CCCA and don't bother bringing their cars to National events anymore. I know this for a fact because I'm one of these people. Why bring a driver just to be put down people with the "it has to be perfect" mentality.

[alsancle]

The car must have needed a bit of freshing up. Dave doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would burn money for the sake of it. Color is really subjective, but I just didn't like the blue on the Lebaron Speedster. Tastes tend to change over time too, in the late 70s and 80s we went through what I like to call the "Circus Wagon" phase where everything was painted bright red. I was as guilty as everyone else - my dad painted his 540k red - and I was all for it. I don't think bright colors are as popular right now.

[Dave Mitchell]

K8096 - It sounds like you are attacking the CCCA for something they are not guilty of. There is absolutely another standard set up by the concours now that transcends the judging and "atmosphere" of the CCCA. The CCCA stands firm on being about authenticity and point judging, not trends in paint colors, and in being much more forgiving in terms of judging paint and chrome. You can have any color on your car and not be docked for it in CCCA. There are perfect cars at CCCA events, but the vast majority are not, and there are definitely drivers and original cars at EVERY Grand Classic and Annual meeting, and also there are sedans and cars that will never get an invitation to Meadowbrook or Pebble. People say that there are no affordable classics, but that isn't true. Also you can still go to a Grand Classic and have a good time and not spend a fortune, which you can easily do at some concours. I would encourage you to give the CCCA a chance as I think you will find that you are wrong, there are far more average people there than you claim, and drivers and show cars are both welcomed, and you will have a good time with the people, going places and seeing things that you won't otherwise. Plus you get to see a few of the cars that have gone or will go to Pebble as part of the deal and most of the guys that own those cars, even though they have more money, are decent people and love the cars, otherwise they wouldn't spend that kind of money on them.

There are people who buy low priced classics and repaint them a color that they like, that is just human nature to make something pleasing to you, we just don't think it is as big of a deal since they didn't pay big bucks for it in the first place, when in fact they are spending a much greater percentage of the purchase price to redo it than the high dollar car. Just because a car is expensive, it doens't mean it is the way you want it, especially if it is a rare model, you may have to take the one that comes up for sale. Besides, sometimes people want to make the car their own. For years the 33 phaeton was known as the old Yost car, but as soon as it was painted, people quit calling it that. It could have been called the New York show car, since it was, and it perhaps it was painted the unusual color to make it stand out at the show, but it wasn't the most pleasing color.

I actually liked the red on the 540K, but it was not a color that MB typically painted big series cars, and I doubt that it would be painted that color now. I like red cars though. There for a while we saw purple, gold, lavender and odd greens and blues. Noel Thompson championed some unusual colors on exotic cars, but these colors persisted into the 90s too. I think that the 34 Dietrich sedan, with a flawless Chris Charleton restoration is being repainted now, and I venture to say that the paint on it was better than the other cars we are talking about. The blue color on the leBaron doesn't do a thing for me, and if I had the kind of money to buy it, the cost of a paint job wouldn't be that much in comparison.

[Dave Mitchell]

The leBaron Speedster could only manage a 3rd in class at Pebble, and I guess that for the price of it you could have had entire fleets of the two cars that beat it, a Lincoln and a Cord. Oh well.