Can any Stutz Guru I.D. the year of a Stutz engine????

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

I have what I believe is a late 20's or early 30's Stutz engine.It's a 8 cylinder, Overhead Cam, 9 mains,16 spark plug holes.I found a number on the block "32974". I only have the block,head and crank shalf.There may be other parts for this engine, but there are piles of misc.car parts in this garage.What name and model carb should I be looking for? Also the same for the starter,generator,distributor,tranny, etc.Is the valve cover and oil pan tin, or aluminum? Hope some Stutz expert can supply me some info.Thanks, Jim

[ksparks]

I have what I believe is a late 20's or early 30's Stutz engine.It's a 8 cylinder, Overhead Cam, 9 mains,16 spark plug holes.I found a number on the block "32974". I only have the block,head and crank shalf.There may be other parts for this engine, but there are piles of misc.car parts in this garage.What name and model carb should I be looking for? Also the same for the starter,generator,distributor,tranny, etc.Is the valve cover and oil pan tin, or aluminum? Hope some Stutz expert can supply me some info.Thanks, Jim

hello, any fotos

keith

keith123451@live.com

[K8096]

That's a fairly late engine with that serial number. I would guess 1931 or 1932. They're all about the same from 1929 and up. 322 cubic inches. The generator just bolts to the front of the block on the passanger side. It's a Delco unit. If you have several, just see which one lines up with the holes. The starter is a Delco unit as well. The waterpump bolts to a flange on the rear of the block on the passanger side. Again, if you have several, just see which one you have fits. Carb is a potmetal Zenith 105 which usually falls apart. It may have been replaced with a Stromburg UU2 or UUR2. Tranny is either a 4 speed crash box Detroit Gear or a three speed synchromesh Muncie. Valve cover is stamped steel. Distributor is Delco as well.

Edited December 12, 2010 by K8096 (see edit history)

[1939_Buick]

Post 1 was 2005

Post 2 was Dec 2010 (5 years after the first)

[K8096]

Yes, but the poster is still active on the forum if you look at his profile.

[Ivan Saxton]

There is a casting date on the block on the left side not far below the head gasket. For instance, my DV32 which is obviously one of a small number that they built and tested up to 3 years before Stutz the model on the market, has a casting date 6 27 8 . This was poured on the 27th of June 1928. (This is not difficult code.) The engine number for this is DV30004. There would likely be several months delay between when an engine was cast and when it ran in a car.

This delay may have been quite a bit longer near the end of production

[K8096]

Is yours the one DV-32 with the bronze head instead of cast iron? 1928 is 3 years pre production for the DV-32. I assume it has an updraft carb. I believe DV-32's weren't introduced to the public until the fall of 1931. Remember too, the late DV-32 blocks had two flywheel timing inspection holes at the rear while earelier blocks only had one. The 2nd hole on the later blocks was because the later cylinder heads had a "hot cam" with I think a 5 degree advancement in them which (along with the stromburg downdraft carb) increased performance.

[Ivan Saxton]

No. I am fairly sure that there was a bronze head on Bruce Catchpole's engine in NZ. I do not have correspondance record of the mention, but I think he may have obtained the engine alone from England in the 1960's; and Darien Cassidy said he thought the head may have been a special made in England. I saw it in 1972 briefly when a friend in NZ took me to see Bruce.

My cylinder head is cast iron; and I have no idea how closely it conforms to the production heads. The block is BB pattern casting. There are no ribs between the top of the bell housing and the back of the block. The M Series block differs from BB in detail of the welsh plug bosses. I do not know whether the word "SPECIAL" which is cast upside down on the left side of the block below the casting date refers to only that it had a DV head and was intended to. The other two oddities are that it is a BB blosck with different coring for 3 3/8"bores like the later M Series; And the Massively strong I-beam main bearing caps with longer bolts. These must be nearly inch and a half deep. As I have written before, Stutz must have known that they had problems with the main bearing caps, because they replaced the single rib centre main cap with a double rib cap. This was during about a 6-7 week period between engine #91845 and #92335.

Geoff Ringrose in Sydney had the centre main cap break in his engine close to that earlier number, during a club run. Whenn he heard the noise he shut down and had it taken home on a flat-top. Maybe that was what broke in the Black Hawk that blew up in the match race at Indinapolis with Weyman's Hispano. If you kept racing after this happened you would lose oil pressure and eventually break conrods.

I have no manifolds, so I do not know what carby was used. I also have no camshafts or camshaft mountings. If someone could help me with engineering drawings I would be most grateful. The engine has been raced at some stage. I was told it turned up in New Orleans incomplete, and people ratted it for parts. The incomplete set of Stutz steel conrods made up a complete set for someone. If any history coes to light I would be delighted. At least it is cast iron evidence that Stutz had prototype DV32's running around Indianapolis at the same time as the first prototype J model Duesenberg. Valve timing was probably not ideal by our standards.

[Ivan Saxton]

Exact main bearing cap thickness:

BB # 91845 number 2 cap 0.899"

DV30004 " " " 1.777"

As I guessed , double the thickness , but much greater cross section; so maybe three times as strong. Can anyone give figures for standard DV32?

[Guest Silverghost]

IVAN & others

How would you compare the designs of the Stutz DV32 engine with the Duesenberg Model "J" Lycoming engine?

Ivan~ you have an early DV-32 prototype~

Which design actually appeared first ?

Did one design borrow or steal ideas from the other?

I find it curious that both cars were built in the same general area !

Have you , or anyone else compared these two engines side by side ?

Both designs were way ahead of their times !

Old A K Miller the famous horder and Stutz fanatic had a DV 32 . Dad & I saw it at his famous estate auction sale.

We saw this A K Miller DV-32 Coupe' again , still unrestored, at the Platinum Classics Guys booth/tent at Hershey in 2001 !

Was it ever restored ?

Who owns it today ?

It is indeed impressive !

[K8096]

AK didn't have a DV coupe - you're thinking of the 1929 Lancfield coupe with the supercharger. That wasn't a DV-32 - just a single overhead cam. It was one of supposedly 25 built with a supercharger so Stutz could use a supercharger to race a LeMans in 1929. Three original supercharged cars exist today. The coupe, a Derham conv coupe, and the origiinal LeMans racer. Pieces of other superchargers exists as well. The Stutz DV-32 head was a logical progression from the original SOHC design from 1926. It wasn't a whole new engine, just the head and manifolds changed. Through the years, the bore was enlarged and compression ratio raised as well.

Edited December 14, 2010 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

On the authority of the Christie's catalogue of the A K Miller sale, there was a DV32 sedan , a DV32 roadster, and an engine with transmission. The number of Stutz in his collection was probably quite diminished since the early 1960's. There is still correspondance from him in the files of the Stutz Owners'Register here in Melbourne. He told us he had "sixty Stutz of all models". This would indicate that he was a collector and dispenser. I confess I really despise the use of the terms

"hoard" and "hoarder" in this sort of connection. There is absolutely no doubt that AK saved a lot of cars that would otherwise have been junk. It may well be that some people asessed by their experience of dealing with him that he could seem graceless. That is a different and personal consideration.

In John Bentley's book Great American Automobiles, there is clear indication of

how, and how long before market release Stutz had prototype DV32s on the ground. I just did a quick check on the internet, and there are lots of good hardback used copies at reasonable cost. It is a very good book; but it should be approached with caution by Very Modern Used Car Club of America people, because it may contaminate their interest with that of antique cars.

I am not the best person to give you comparative opinion of J and DV32. I have ridden in a J only once briefly at Auburn, and there is none in Australia that I know. That seemed very heavy and truck-like. There may have been reasons reasons for that: But I was not enthralled. I have never ridden in a DV32 either. There is difference in engine displacement and total mass. Theoretically the Stutz with 9 main bearings is better than the Duesenberg with five. I would have liked to see larger valves in the DV32, but people with experience of high performance engines who have looked at the head say the ports are more important and that they are excellent. I do not think you could argue the same about Stutz cam profiles and timing.

As for whether the Duesenberg or Stutz was first with a twin cam pent-roof 4 valve per cylinder engine, and whether anyone copied another, that is probably not how it happened. People like the Duesenbergs and Harry Miller had been familiar with what was advanced and successful in racing for a long time, and that included Jules Goux'Peugeot in 1914. What they did was adopt good ideas and basics with their own adaptations. Now the date of this engine suggests who may have been involved at Stutz. Frank Lockhart was a disciple of Harry Miller,

who it is recorded was not shy to upset Harry by making improvements when they were needed. And he was based at Stutz with Fred Moscovich' advice and encouragement. It seems they shared interest in high performance and racing. Charles Greuter was there of course also. It seems that the single OHC Stutz was derived from his prototype Excelsior 8 cylinder, but his design of excellent engines ran back before the Matheson to an opposed twin cylinder car of the 1890's of very advanced engine design which had electric starting and lighting, and automatic ignition advance. All you can deduce is that the J and the DV32 originated at about the same time independantly, and that both groups had better use for their time than to snoop around looking for each others' ideas.

[Guest Silverghost]

Ivan~ My Dad knew A K Miller and had many notes sent between them for a time period. Dad was never able to deal successfully with Old A K on buying parts or cars~

Many others can relate a similar story with trying to deal with old A K !

It is very true that A K saved many very rare autos in his day; along with at least two Pticairn Auto-Gyro Aircraft that also survive today. One such aircraft is in the National Air & Space Museum . The other example, the Miss Champion Spark Plug is now owned again by the Pitcairn family and is on loan to another East Coast area aviation museum.

A K Miller saved both of these aircraft !

He also burried gold and silver under the floorboards of his out- buildings; over 2 Million $$$ ~~~And NEVER paid taxes !

In my opinion his storage conditions for his rare autos were very poor indeed.

He never really restored or drove any of these autos; so I would be very hard pressed to call him a collector/restorer.

Perhapps hoarder is a harsh term~~~ It would be very hard to accurately describe old A K Miller !

He sure did ,in is own way, save quite a bit of automotive and aviation history for future generations !

Thank you for your insights into Stutz and the fantstic hi- perfomance DV 32 !

Edited December 15, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Here is a good thread on the A.K. Miller.

[alsancle]

In John Bentley's book Great American Automobiles, there is clear indication of

how, and how long before market release Stutz had prototype DV32s on the ground. I just did a quick check on the internet, and there are lots of good hardback used copies at reasonable cost. It is a very good book; but it should be approached with caution by Very Modern Used Car Club of America people, because it may contaminate their interest with that of antique cars.

Just bought a copy for 12 bucks from an online used book seller. Your quote above made me laugh out loud.