I need help with a 1920 1/2 ton screenside

[claydiamond]

I have a 1920 ? screenside and am haveing trouble keeping it running. It will crank and run about 10 min. then seems to be starved for fuel and cuts off?

I am new at this so any help is appreciated.

[nearchoclatetown]

What do you have to do to restart it? If you must wait, it could be as simple as the vent in the gas cap being clogged or condensor needing replaced. I worked on a neighbor's that ran for 8-10 minutes. It turned out to be carbon from the rotor had deposited a trail of carbon around the cap. We need more info to help.

[claydiamond]

It will start after a few min. but will do the same thing again. I am looking into the fuel system, maybe a bad fuel pump. I will also check cap and rotor thanks for your help. Sure would like to find someone in N. Florida that knows something about this type car.

[Dodgin']

"Dodge Brother" Clay,

I have a '23 ScreenSide in California that's had similar "fuel problems" which can be fixed. I might be able to help with an address / phone number or two in Florida.

Write a private reply to dcmmld@mlode.com - for help.

You're welcome!

[nearchoclatetown]

A '20 would have a vacuum tank. Eliminate it by hooking a small tank{lawn mower} above the carb and test. When it stops running is there gas in the carb bowl? Is this the first you had the engine running? If generator does not work and you are jumping to restart, you could be adding just enough juice to run a few minutes. We need details, it will probably be something easy after you find it.

[claydiamond]

This is a new car for me. I have had to change the battery from 6 volt to 12,

also the fuel pump from a 6 to a 12. Car started much better and was idleing fine

for quite a few min. before shutting down like it was starved for fuel. The fuel pump has a 2.5-4psi rateing. Float seems to be working in carb. Not sure if generator is running right or not. The car does start without priming most of the time now. Thanks

[dwollam]

You said you changed the battery from 6 volt to 12. It is stock with 12 volt, negative ground '22 and earlier, positive ground after that. As for the fuel problem, if it still has the vacuum tank system, remove the elbow where the fuel line enters it on top, remove the brass screen and clean it. That is what happened to me on my first DB. ('22 screenside) It was plugged, would run a few miles, starve out, then after sitting for a bit the fuel would seep through and run again. When the vacuum tank is working there should be no need for an electric pump. Hope this helps.

Dave

[nearchoclatetown]

I agree on the vacuum tank, Dave. There are some very good articles available from the DB club explaining how the tank works. They are available as old issues or a complete set of newsletters on CD. If the carb doesn't need refilled to restart chances are the supply is good. A lawn mower gas tank wired to the hood rod with a rubber hose to the carb would tell absolutely if it's a supply problem. When the engine stalls, and the carb does not need primed will it restart immediately? Or do you have to wait 10-15 minutes? Does pulling the choke keep it from stalling? Do you have the spark advanced after starting?

[Jan Arnett]

Clay: You keep saying fuel pump. That car did not come with a fuel pump. If someone put a fuel pump on it they probably had the same problem. I would ditch the fuel pump and correct the vac tank where your problem probably is. The idea to put a lawn mower tank on is excellent but you can also take the filler plug out of the top of the vac. tank and fill the tank with gas to get it running. Where are you located. A vac tank works by taking the vac from the intake manifold and through some levers and a float draws fuel from the fuel tank. Take the fuel cap off and see if it run better as you may have a stopped up cap. Hope this helps. You need to join the Dodge club as there are many members who have gone through very similar problems.

[claydiamond]

Thanks for all the help. I have found out the car is a 1923 not a 1920

Car # 828340. You are right someone placed a 6 volt in place of the 12. It does not have a vacuum tank I will need to find one? I can always restart the car right away and the fuel is present in the bowl. Today it seemed to idle fine and then would cut out when throttle was advanced. Is there a screen or filter at bottom of pick up tube in gas tank? I also plan on checking condenser as I have read it may cause engine to miss or backfire and "kill" Someone asked where I am located, N. Florida, Gainesville. I have joined the Dodge Brothers Club and assume I will get mag. and can order back issues. Look forward to really being able to drive down the road and not just run engine in garage.

[Jan Arnett]

Clay: i also have a 1923 screenside and they are a nice car/truck. When I tore my gas tank apart i found that when the car had been put away forty years ago it had a half on tank of gas. The tank had rusted at that level and the feed line going down into the tank had holes in it at the level the fuel would have been. As was mentioned earlier you can create a fuel tank to get the car running out of a old lawmower tank which you mount above the carb and allow gravity to feed the car. If this does not work and the car stalls then the problem is with the carburator. The carb could be gummed up, have sediment in it, a hole in the carb but at least you have isolated it to the carb. If you can not find a vac tank in fl.let me know. I know where there are several but I am in Ky. Hope this helps. Do you have pictures?

Jan <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[nearchoclatetown]

Clay, if car starts immediately it probably isn't the condensor. The condensor can heat up and fail, cool and restart, but would take several minutes to do so. If it stalls when throttle is increased check the screen in the carb. And are you sure the cylinder that raises inside carb when throttle is increased is not gummed up. It exposes holes in a tube which the engine vacuum draws gas through to speed up engine. Have carb apart?? What about the heat collar on the incoming air tube in back of carb? Mine has to be almost completely closed all year long for engine to run right.Sounds like your getting closer to the problem.

[claydiamond]

It appears I do not have a heat tube on the back of carb. Any suggestion as where to find one? I do think the problem may be with the air intake when the engine

throttle is advanced. The "hole" behind the carb is open, no tube or connection to engine and carb.

Skip

[nearchoclatetown]

We might be getting somewhere.There should be a nickel plated tube about 1 1/2 inches in diameter screwed to the back of the carb. It is 2 piece, both haveing a large hole. You can turn the outer piece to cover or open the hole to allow fresh unheated air into the carb. The tube connects to the block drawing heated air from between the center 2 cylinders. My '24 and my neighbor's cars need most of this hole covered, won't run correctly with hole open. You could probably make a temporary one from a paper towel roll. Cut a hole about 1X2 inches in the side of the tube and use tape { like the NASCAR boys}over part of the hole to experiment. This might not be the whole problem, but it could help. Do you have a BOOK OF INFORMATION, the DB owner's manual? It describes adjusting this.

[claydiamond]

Are you saying to place the tape over the hole in the block or carb? In other words do I need fresh cool air from outside or heated air from engine? I have no tube from carb to block. I only have a Mechanics Instruction Manual, can find no mention of nickel plated tube.

[nearchoclatetown]

Sorry to confuse. The tube would go from the carb to the block, hole would be in the side of the tube. Without hole all air would be preheated. Hole allows some mixture of heated and cool air. The tape would be used to adjust the size of the hole to change mixture of heated and cool air. Tube is only about 3-4 inches long. There should be a small plate bolted to block, behind the carb, with a hole to accept the tube. Hope this is clearer. There should be a picture of the carb mounted on the engine in your Mechanics book. I will check in mine tommorrow.

[nearchoclatetown]

Clay, you are right, there isn't a picture of the back of the carb in the Mechanic's book. I still need to look for an extra tube.

[claydiamond]

Well I am back to sq. one. I put a piece of tubing from the carb to the engine and the only thing I can tell is that the carb is no longer cold. It is now warm to the touch. However the car will still stall after advanceing the throttle and then backing off. The car backfires and will shut down unless I baby it back by gently playing with the throttle. Would you know where to find the correct tube from the carb to engine? Maybe I have starved it to much by not giving it enough

fresh air? I am also looking for a vacuum tank so I can do away with the electric fuel pump.

[Guest commander1924]

I may be able to help you with the tube, I have an old parts carb with the tube and sleeve still attached. Contact me at commander1924@aol.com.

[Jan Arnett]

Clay: I think there is some confusion on what you need to be looking for. When you removed the carb from the engine there was a piece of metal (round tube) that was mounted on the end of the carb that fits into the block. If you don't have this piece the carb will fall off the side of the engine. The piece may have come off and be stuck in the block but it will be there. I just went out in the garage and picked up a spare carb. I have taken pictures and will send them to you tomorrow. The piece looks like two tubes with one inside the other with slots in them. You can rotate the outer tube to allow more heated air into the carb. If you do not have it the gentleman whose name I sent you on the vac tanks has several

[nearchoclatetown]

Clay, I think we need to hear more symptoms. You hadn't said anything before about backfireing, just stalling. Backfireing could be timing related. Have you adjusted the valves correctly? and are you advancing the timing with the lever on the steering wheel after getting it running? If the engine ran correctly before taking the carb apart, I'd think the problem is isolated to carb, but we need more history. Good compression? Fresh gas? How long does it run before stalling, and is it consistantly the same amount of time?

[Jan Arnett]

Clay: you mailbox reject all of my email today. I copied pages out of the owners manual.

jan

[claydiamond]

I do not have a spark advanceing connection from the steering. Looks like someone

removed it from the car. All that is left is the lever not tube or connection to distributor. By the way I read where the car has 45 degrees of advance with 25 degreegs being automatic. Could this be why it will start and let me advance the throttle (without advanceing the spark) and then start missing, backfireing and stall? I also find that the distributor is from delco and not north east. Whole set up is not like in the mechanics manual. I was going to try to check out the weights which control the automatic advance since I read that they may lose their tension. I do not think this distributor has any weights. I am goine to check the timing saturday.

[nearchoclatetown]

Clay, does your Delco have screw-in spark plug wires? Sounds like you may have a distributor from about '17. After warming up my '24 will stall as you are saying if I don't advance the dist., this could be your problem. Have you checked the engine number above the carb.? which generator do you have? The head should have a casting date on top, too. If you don't have a rod attached to the dist., try moving it by hand. If it moves, start the engine and experiment. There should be a noticeable differance when it is advanced, engine will smooth out and stop laboring.

[claydiamond]

yes the delco has screw in plug wires. No numbers on dist. The # on top of head is A-186 with a 5 under numbers. Above Carb the # 247183, generator is a northeast #3514G1 12 volt. I can see where the spark advance should attatch but no wire or tube to put it in going to hand lever. I do have the hand lever just not sure if it is the right one or not. Someone tried to wire the Dist. in place

with a piece of wire, probably got it in a good position and just left it there.

[nearchoclatetown]

Clay, what I'm thinking is someone swapped the engine in your truck. Did you date your truck from the chart in the front of the Mechanics Manual? If so, your serial no. is between 740000 and 920000 to be a '23. Your engine should be within about 50000 of that no. A '23 would also have a GA generator, not G. Sounds like you have a '17 or '18 engine. My neighbor has a '17, his carb no. is 112745. Is yours close to that? I'll bet the oil cap is held on with a wingnut, and you have primer cups on the head? The intake manifold would be cast bronze and curved away from the generator also? The Delco dist had a flat plate in the back { possibly where yours is wired }, with a 5/32 to 3/16 hole in it, where the advance rod attaches. Non of this is keeping it from running and enjoying the truck, just helpful in ID. The advance rod moves the dist. about 3/8 to 1/2 inch counterclockwise. Until you get an advance rod mechanism you could make up a rod that you can move manually from under the hood.

[claydiamond]

Your right the # of the plate on the toe kick says 828340 while the engine says

247183. I have yet to find the # on the frame. I will look for carb #. I do have primer cups and intake looks to be bronze with a curve bolted to head with two nuts on studs.Breather cap is a flip style no wing nut. Generator is a North East 12 volt with the numbers 3514G1 and the numbers 185765 next to the G. It is not like the one in the manual. Shunt field fuse is on the end of generator close to carb not fan end. I can move the Dist. counter clockwise and see that there is mounting point behind Dist. I would like to get the advance rod if you know of anywhere I might find one. Do you know why the number A-186 on the head is different from the #247183 on the block? Maybe this entire engine and body have been pieced together from different cars?

[nearchoclatetown]

I looked at my neighbor's '17 head, the no. was 186-4, his '20 was 186-8. Also is your fan mounted to the engine block or the head? Block early, head later.

[claydiamond]

I checked the Carb # 219992, Head # A-186-5, engine # 247183, body # 828340.

Could this have been sold to a coach builder (J.T.Cantrell & Co.) and they put the body on later with a plate # of 828340? This could be why the engine is so much older # than body. Rember this body is a wood bodied station wagon called a

"Depot Hack". All wood with no windows. Fan is mounted to head not block.

[nearchoclatetown]

You are saying "body" no. 828340. Do you mean serial no.? Where is this no. stamped? Serial no. should be on tag attached to floor board. Have you tried to advance the timing by hand?

[claydiamond]

sorry, the # is on a plate on the toe kick above the starter button. I have worked on the timing and think I have it about right. It still looks like I will have to work on the carb as it seems a little gummed up. I also have one primer cup that need to be replaced. Can you send me in the right direction for one?

Also I plan on using a simple choke cable until I can find a spark advance cable.

[nearchoclatetown]

The easy thing for now would be just take out the bad primer cup. I'm guessing it leaks vacumm? The threads are standard pipe plug, either 1/8 or 1/4, I forget.

[Guest 18DodgeBrothers]

Clay,

We have an 18 touring serial # 245063 with the same vintage engine that you apparently have. Ours had an electric fuel pump when we got it. We have gone through alot (4+ years) to get where we are today. Ours ran similar to yours when we got it. After frutzing around awhile, we had a DB member friend find and rebuild a vacuum tank. That was a BIG improvement. After that (for other reasons) we went through an engine rebuild. After putting everything back together the car runs very good. I did have the coil rewound and changed condensers, but other than that nothing else was changed. You might try a newer coil just to see if that may be the problem. "Standard UC-15" is one.

We did nothing to the carb. We did replace most of the fuel line with a new copper one. (Placed the fuel filter back near the fuel tank). I have heard of several other club members that do not have the tube between the carb and the block and they do not have any problems. Ours has one, but I leave it wide open all of the time. My understanding is that this device was needed back then to draw warm air from the manifold to help heat the fuel mixture due to the low octane gasoline.

I looked through the DBC roster to see if any members are close to you. A member in Gainesville has a 1926 Sedan. There are only a couple others in Ocala and Jacksonville, but they were not listed as having 4 cyl cars.

I know how you feel about not getting out on the streets with your car and just having to run it in the garage. Hope this info helps some.

Les

[claydiamond]

Thanks for the info. I now have a Vac tank and will start rebuilding it. I am pretty sure that will solve most of my problems. I am going to thourghly clean

the carb. Did you use a newer condenser? I have someone from just north of me contact me, he has a '25 Touring. We will get together soon. I also just received my 2003 roster. Thanks again

[Dan McInnis]

Clay: I have sent you a private message - looking forward to getting with you - I may have some of the parts you are looking for and I have lost your cell phone number - Dan McInnis

[Guest 18DodgeBrothers]

Clay,

Guess what! A few days after I made my post on 4/3, our nice running '18 went "south."

Cuts out intermittently at any speed, any gear, now. Seems like it just happened overnight. I have changed points, but that made no difference. Haven't got another condenser to try yet - just getting started on this. Look's like I'm in the same boat you are now.

Les

[claydiamond]

I am about to put a vacuum tank on mine and I hope it does the trick. Everything else seems to be working ok. Let me know if you find your problem

[Jan Arnett]

clay: I hope you have solved your fuel problem by now and it is running like a top. If not and you would like to try and replace the condenser you can use a modern one as a temporary fix to see if it helps. There are several articles in the Dodge magazine on which ones to use and which coil. My experience tells me that in the short run any 12 volt condenser will work. Just remove the one inside the distributor and wire a new condenser in place. If it solves your problem then you can get the correct NOS one or the correct replacement. Are we having fun yet.

Jan

[claydiamond]

Jan, I am not running yet as the vac tank from Ken was not in any shape to be repaired. I have contacted Gene Sanson in NJ and he is sending me a "good" used one. I am sure that when I get the tank installed I will be up and running. I want to say thanks to all the replies I have gotten. I must say this is one of the best groups I have ever been envolved with. Yes I am haveing the time of my life.

Skip

[Guest 18DodgeBrothers]

Clay,

Finally found my problem. Ground, ground, ground. When we had engine out for rebuild we had painted other parts including distributor case and the part the distributor sets in that is bolted to the block. Thus little or no return ground for distributor. Cleaned paint off and now have a good spark with no miss.

Les