Marc Futterman Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Hey All,It's coming time for me to paint my 67 Electra, and I'm facing a dillema of which one to paint my car. First off, let me say that <span style="font-weight: bold">my car has rust and some corrosion on the rear by the trunk. But the body otherwise is rust free and 99% straight, with very few dings in it.</span> So here are my options :1) Take it to my friend who has a successful auto restoration shop who can prep,and paint the car for between $3000 to $5000 dollars. (Knowing him it will be closer to 5000.)But that is with me taking off all the trim.2) Take it to the maaco near my house, who gave me a estimate of 2500 for removing all the rust and then painting it the original white, including doorjambs and the trunk.Ok, I have heard bad things about maaco. But I have heard good things about them too. I have talked to the manager of this maaco numerous times and he has shown me around his facility and showed me all the cars they are currently working on, including several late 60's cars. <span style="font-weight: bold">The finished products he has done looked fine to me.</span> He also invited me to take step-by-step pictures of the prepping/painting process. This same maaco shop has already replaced my front windshield and in my view (inexperienced that is) it looks fine and I'm satisfied except for 1 small leak where they did not seal the windshield enough. He has promised to fix that at his expense. <span style="font-weight: bold">I do not intend on my electra ever being a concours/professional looking vehicle.</span> I drive it often and enjoy it, and it will always have some kind of indication that it is driven. I cannot see putting 3-5000 dollars into my car, and then another 3000 or so for the interior later on. It's just too much for me as I'm a young guy in my mid 20's and don't have wads of money.What do you all think ? Would maaco be a ok alternative? Would they get all of the rust out??Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I think what you said is true about maaco. You hear good things and bad things. It all depends on who runs the particular shop. The fact that he gave you a full tour of the facilities is probably a one good indication that he does good work. That sounds similar to my uncle's experience with his work truck. Maaco guy gave him a full tour and showed him works in progress, etc. Truck came out pretty good, too, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Paint quality is all about the prep work. Actually shooting the paint is the easy part and is far less critical to the final result than what is underneath. It is my philosophy is that it is always cheaper to do a job right the first time, even if it appears more expensive up front. I'm guessing your friend with the restoration shop will cut out the bad metal, weld in new metal, sand the welds and repair all the dents. He will disassemble the car more completely than Maaco will, and will likely use higher quality products. Maaco will hit the rust with a sander, if there are holes, they'll fill them with plastic filler (nobody at Maaco knows how to weld, I'll wager), then spray the paint over it. That, my friend, is a very temporary repair.Maaco for its part will mask off anything you don't remove--they won't remove anything for you. The one car I had painted there had overspray everywhere, and there were very visible masking lines on the items I didn't remove (door handles, side mirrors, etc.). It looked good from 10 feet, but up close, it looked like a hack job. I ended up disassembling the car myself, prepping everything, and having somebody else spray the paint. It looked concours after that for not a lot of money.If you really want to save a buck <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> have great results, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">do the prep work yourself. </span></span>Body work isn't difficult--the most important thing about it is time. Get those panels straight and flat (Maaco won't do that and you'll see the waves in the panels from where they applied filler). Repair the rust yourself or ask your restorer friend to just do that part for you, then you can apply the filler, sand it all out, and get the car into primer (a moderate investment in tools is required for this, but I doubt you'll regret that). You can make the body as perfect as you want, and likely more perfect than Maaco. Then take it to Maaco and have them simply spray the paint--that should cost less than a grand, maybe even half that much. The car will be thoroughly disassembled, so there should be minimal masking. The result will be a top-quality paint job that won't cost a fortune. Good prep can make bad paint look good. There is no such thing as a paint that can make bad prep look good.Consider doing it yourself. There is an excellent message forum at AutobodyStore.com where you'll get expert advice and enough information that you won't feel intimidated about doing this yourself. Get a book and learn about the techniques. There is nothing difficult about body work, and if you take your time, you can get spectacular results for not a lot of money...Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53and61 Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 As usual, Matt has made the point cogently and eloquently, and I second his view. Around here no body shop is willing to do my Invicta in less than 12 months at anywhere near the $3K-$5k you mention. One decent shop refuses to do collector cars in any time at any cost. Fortunately we have a local body shop supply store that is very patient with amateurs. They even give a free painting lesson if you buy the supplies from them. They claim that new paints make the application easier than it's been in the past. But if you do the prep and most of the masking yourself and still want to farm out the painting, why limit yourself to Maaco? You'll have made the painting so convenient that I'd expect that most any good shop would be willing to finish the job at reasonable cost. My own experience in painting 5 cars has been that the application of the color coats amounts to about 1% of the total work. You can substitute patience for experience in all the prep, but this hasn't been true for me in shooting the color. The difficulties of dirt, moisture, and my own limitations with the paint gun have argued in favor of having the color sprayed by a professional. I may do it that way next time. (Next time is now -- I just started stripping the Invicta.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 One thing I would like to add that is very important if you're doing this yourself: pick your painter in advance and make sure this is OK with him. You will want to use the same brand of materials your painter uses to insure compatibility (buy them from the same place to insure a match). Also, make sure your painter is OK with your prep work. Some painters will refuse to paint a customer-prepped car because they don't know what is underneath, and they don't want to deal with the hassle of you coming back and complaining about the quality of their work when it was your prep that screwed it up. I think your best bet would be to work out an arrangement with your restorer friend. Get his advice, use his materials, have him check your work at each stage, then have him spray the final finish. Since he's your friend, he'll probably be willing to do this to save himself the hard part and you a considerable amount of cash.This is critical, so make sure you talk to your painter at length before you start down this path. But it is still the cheapest way to get a very high quality paint job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Futterman Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Thanks for the response guys. I talked to the manager of maaco this morning (the same one who gave me a tour of the facility), and when I asked him if they sandblast the rust off, he said no they do not but it's not necessary to use a sandblaster. He said they will grind all the rust away and that they will then fill it and primer it. At least he was honest with me.I then looked at that oldsmobile that they just finished. Aside from some overspray, it looked great. Was very shiny and not much orange peel. They also put racing stripes on and those looked great too.As for Matt's suggestion, I'm not good at bodywork at all, and don't have the time to work on it myself anyway.Otherwise I would do it myself. The manager told me again that I'm invited to take pictures of the process as they go step-by-step the whole way. I think that's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Marc,I don't mean to argue your decision, but don't be fooled by shiny paint. All paint is shiny when it's fresh, no matter what it is on top of. But the important thing is what is underneath. And what they are telling you about their rust prevention techniques makes me very, very nervous. You're going to pay several thousand bucks for this job, and you'll have rust coming back through in a year, maybe less. I kid you not. If they don't remove it all by cutting it out, <span style="font-style: italic">it will come back.</span> Guaranteed.Another thing to be concerned about is whether the rust goes all the way through the metal, which I'm almost certain it does. They'll grind away the rust and be left with a hole, which they'll fill with plastic filler. That will last until you hit the first big bump in the road, then it will crack and eventually fall out. Again, not the right way to do it.I don't mean to give you a hard time about this, but you're talking about a large investment in cash, and I'm guessing that you don't want to do it twice. As I said earlier, it's always, always, always cheaper to do it right the first time, even if the up front cost is more expensive. Doing it once the right way is cheaper than doing it once the cheap way and then once the right way.I'm sure the Maaco guy is being honest with you, and I know you appreciate being able to watch the work being done, but can you stand to watch work being done incorrectly? On your collector car? For which you're paying several thousand dollars? I sure wouldn't...And don't worry about not knowing anything about body work--we all have to start somewhere. The neat thing about body work is that if you make a mistake, just sand it off and start over, no harm, no foul.Still, it's your money and your decision. I wouldn't be comfortable with the work they said they would do, just because it's wrong. Maaco is about the quick fix so you can sell your used car. I wouldn't trust them to do work on a car I intended to keep. Remember, I've used them and know the drill.Anyway, please don't take this the wrong way--I really do have your best interests at heart. Please think about your decision carefully. You'll only be unhappy if it is wrong, not if it is expensive but beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Futterman Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Yeah, I see what your saying Matt and I'm not taking it the wrong way. The only actual corrosion (that I can see of course) is on the rear of the car by the trunk. It sounded to me like he would cut it out and then he said he would put bondo on there........and yes I know that's not exactly the best but considering my car is arctic white and that it's only 1 small spot, I don't know it doesn't seem that bad to me.But I see your point, and I will think about it carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Futterman Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Btw way Matt, maybe I could take some close up pics of the work they did around my front window and email it to you? And then maybe you could point out the defects ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Futterman Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 Update- Ok Matt, I just talked to my friend from Minnesota and he convinced me to do the bodywork myself. He said even I could do it, and you said the same thing. I just have never ever done bodywork or even thought of it. I'm calling my friend tomorrow and going to ask him what kind of sander do I buy and where.I'm going to start taking the trim off myself and just start sanding away every piece of rust there is. I'll let you know what happens, and thanks for your advice. <span style="font-weight: bold">I don't know how to tackle the corrosion on the rear-but I'm going to sand it the best I can- but there will be a hole left.</span> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 E-mail me any time and I'd be more than happy to help if you get in a jam. Check out the autobodystore.com site I mentioned above--there are people there with years of experience who can answer every single question you've ever had. I learned more from just reading than I did the first time I prepped a car.As far as cutting out the rust, talk to your friend in the restoration shop. Ask him if he'll weld in a panel that you've made into a hole that you cut. It should only take him an hour or so. To cut out the metal, get a cut-off wheel tool (I got mine for about $30 at Home Depot), and cut a rectangular hole that includes the rust. Cut a shape that will be easy to duplicate, anyway. Cut your patch panel out of 18 or 20 gauge metal (which you can also buy at Home Depot), get it to fit just right, then take it to your friend. Once it's welded in, you can grind down the welds, use a little filler to smooth it out, then prime over it. It's really easier than it sounds--I promise. And you'll have the satisfaction of having done it yourself and done it right!Good luck and let me know if there's anything I can do to help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Chapman Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Marc,I think you've gotten some good advice here. There is another long-time poster to this site, Brian Martin (MartinSR) who's a body tech. He's posted a lot of technical info on the Chevelle web site at:http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=3Do a search and see what he's had to say about body work, paint prep, selecting a body shop, etc. Great background.Cheers,John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 31tudor Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I'm late to this thread, but there's one thing to consider about Maaco. It's a franchise, each one locally owned and operated. Maaco's regulations are fairly loose regarding materials and workmanship, and Maaco has gotten a bad name over the years for it.That being said, I would have NEVER considered having Maaco paint one of my cars, but a friend here in Southern Utah who has several show cars shocked me by admitting EVERY ONE of his cars were painted at the local Maaco. I absolutely couldn't beleive it! He has a Jeep that was painted there probably 10 years ago, and it's still gorgeous. He just had a '60 Cadillac Sedan de Ville painted in a gorgeous pearl white (for $2500) and it's absolutely amazing! The shop here has a very good reputation, it sounds like you should avoid the one where you live.You mentioned that you saw a car come out of that shop that was nice and shiny with hardly any orange peel. Man, if my car came out with a square millimeter of orange peel I'd send it back until I was satisfied. Overspray is a very obvious sign of sloppy workmanship and carelessness. High quality shops still get a little overspray on their projects, but they clean them before they're delivered.If you want to learn bodywork, check your local community college and ask about evening programs in auto body. You can learn from people with LOTS of experience for very little out of pocket expense, and most colleges have their own paint booths. You should be able to learn correct techniques, use their tools, get substantial discounts on materials, and have a very nice paint job when done. And it won't cost you anywhere near $2500!Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palbuick Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 HI MarcYou have gotten some excellent advice , so far.If you can do any repair and prep work your self, even getting a friend that can help, give it a try.As for macco painting, I had a 66 Skylark that I preped , removed all crome, bumpers included, and had macco paint. I came out great, took it home and two weeks later I wet sanded and buffed the paint out myself. No one could tell it was a maco paint job. At that time it only cost $ 250.00, but giving the managerwho I knew a few extra $$, and the painted some extra $$, what a paint job, and no oversparay.If you are not panning a Show car this may be the best and most reasonable way to go.Good luckJim Schilf / palbuick@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Futterman Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Hey Jim,I'm not sure what to do now to be honest. I looked at the trim pieces and some of them I don't have the right tools to get them out, and on top of that I simply don't have the time to do it myself even if I had the right tools. My friend at the restoration shop told me to not bother doing my own prep work because "I'm going to blast everything" and there's nothing that I could do that the sandblaster couldn't.So, I'm left contemplating what the best thing to do is. Maaco doesn't sandblast. My friend does. Maaco will use bondo, and my friend will put in new metal. On the other hand, from what I could tell Maaco did a fine job taking out my front windshield and getting all the rust out and primering it. I just don't know what to do now. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pphil Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 i had my 64 wildcat painted cheaply .well i got what i paid for.i am now in redoing everything all over again.but im going to do it myself i dont know anything about paintingbut i will learn.it was painted oct last year allready has rust bubbles where it was not preped right.(less than 1 year it is starting to rust again)the guy that painted mine let me take photos also but a photo cant see under primer.my advice is to do it or get it done right the first time.saves money in the long run. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I did my first restoration by doing all the body and prep work myself and having the car towed to a Maaco shop who's work I liked. The car (a Falcon) was a weekend driver, and it didn't need to be concours quality. The guys at this particulat shop were so thrilled not to be painting old rural delivery mail cars for dirt lot resale that they were <span style="font-style: italic">extremely</span> careful about their work. Not only did I get a paint job that lasted years until I sold the car, but they painted the engine compartment (well) and trunk interior (correctly), which I didn't even ask for or pay for. The paint was slightly bluer than the stock color ("sky blue, which had a little green in it), but the workmanship was exceptional. The best $250 I ever spent in this hobby. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />But, as has been said, Maaco shops vary w-i-d-e-l-y! Check out the individual shops work several times, especially their oldest references, before committing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_SKYSTHELIMIT Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 People I've heard from say that Maaco does not put clear coats on and it's just a high gloss paint. Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 My 2 cents about Maaco, I wouldn't let them paint a baby carriage. Any car I ever seen them paint didn't even look good from 20 feet away...overspray, finger ripples, & orange peel galore........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenc Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Marc, Very good info in these replys. I'll add my 2 cents worth. In auto body painting, you truly get what you pay for. From the prep work to the paint chemistry used. I believe if someone paints day in and day out, they can get "good looking" results with spray cans from Walmart. But how the paint job holds up and looks a couple years down the road is the true test of a quality job. The guys at your local Maaco might be able to give you that fresh paint job, but if they skimp on the rust removal or use less durable paints like an acrylic, you'll have to do the job again sooner than you expected. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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