Reaper1 Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 '89 16V with a 3-wire O2 sensor. I am trying to NOT destroy the sensor to get it out, but I can't get ANY leverage on this stupid thing in the car. You can see the sensor. You can touch the sensor. You can get a tool on the sensor...so how in the frig do you actually get enough *** on it to get it out!? Again, I'm trying to NOT destroy the sensor because it's still good...I am trying to run a test and I need to get it out. I know the lube and heat tricks. Lube isn't making a difference and heat just makes it harder to work on. Both of the special O2 sensor tools that I have seem to suck. I can feel them spreading and I haven't even put any real effort on them yet because I can't, so those are probably not going to work even if I DO get leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensanguy Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 How old is this sensor? They are cheap enough to replace - i think i even have an oem spare if you need it. The last time i replaced mine ( 16v ) was with a box end wrench and a hammer to loosen it. Or. try TIGHTENING it and see if it breaks loose.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi Dude Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 An important though before you proceed, most likely you have a 3 wire sensor, though a late built 89 might have a 4 wire sensor. If you end up needing to replace it, be sure to specify ‘which’ when you order one. As far as removal goes, a 6 point box end wrench would get you the best grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 22 hours ago, mensanguy said: How old is this sensor? They are cheap enough to replace - i think i even have an oem spare if you need it. The last time i replaced mine ( 16v ) was with a box end wrench and a hammer to loosen it. Or. try TIGHTENING it and see if it breaks loose.... It's the original, OEM sensor. Has about 45k miles on it, but all of the years. It's not corroded or anything. It actually looks really good, like it should be fairly easy. I did order a new NTK sensor, just in case. I can get a wrench on it, but there's not enough room to get any swing with a hammer. How did you approach it, from top, bottom or wheel well (dunno how you'd do that since the frame rail and P/S pump are both in the way)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 8 hours ago, Hemi Dude said: An important though before you proceed, most likely you have a 3 wire sensor, though a late built 89 might have a 4 wire sensor. If you end up needing to replace it, be sure to specify ‘which’ when you order one. As far as removal goes, a 6 point box end wrench would get you the best grip. Yeah, mine has a 3-wire and I already have a new NTK coming for it, just in case. How do you approach access? Top, bottom, side? I can get tools on it from the top, but I have no room to swing a hammer or anything. I can't honestly see how it's better any other way, so it seems to me like stuff has to be removed to really do this job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi Dude Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 I hope you have a lift available. There is really no ‘easy’ way to reach and to remove this oxygen sensor. Since you wish to reuse it, I cannot tell you to break the upper part off and to concentrate on the base that is screwed into the turbo outlet. Look for the best angle, I would do it from underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 23 hours ago, Hemi Dude said: I hope you have a lift available. There is really no ‘easy’ way to reach and to remove this oxygen sensor. Since you wish to reuse it, I cannot tell you to break the upper part off and to concentrate on the base that is screwed into the turbo outlet. Look for the best angle, I would do it from underneath. After thinking on it some, I have a plan of attack. I need to replace the right side axle seal anyways, so I need to pull that axle assembly out. I figure once I have it out I will have more room underneath. If that still presents ineffective, I will remove the power steering pump and possibly the bracket. As a total last resort, I could pull the K-frame and that would give me room for sure. As an emergency where it gets stuck and totally unable to be removed I could take and have a new bung put in the downpipe. Otherwise it's taking the turbo off and that's no fun, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi Dude Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Good luck with all your alternate plans. Keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moparite Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 I tried to quote this and it won't allow me to type anything so have to do it this way(pc/windows). "Both of the special O2 sensor tools that I have seem to suck. I can feel them spreading and I haven't even put any real effort on them yet because I can't, so those are probably not going to work even if I DO get leverage. " Can't comment on what you are using but may suggest trying a swivel ratchet. They are very helpful in tight places. Mine (old Craftsman) can be used at 90* with a wrench on the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensanguy Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 SAY WHAT?? Am i missing something here? I have an 89 with a 16v, and it was the easiest thing to do! Its right up front where you can see it and get a box-end wrench in and break it loose. When I replaced mine a couple years ago, there was plenty of room to swing a wrench, break it loose, unscrew it, and replace with a new one, i did it from the top, and after trying to TIGHTEN it, it broke free when i tried to loosen it. Don't see what the major problem is--are your wrenches too thick to fit over the flats on the sensor, you say there's no room to hit with a hammer--try a piece of pipe--either iron or pvc--on the wrench-that should give you enough leverage to break it free, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet & Gold Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Looks like there is lots of room. I did not put a wrench on it though. Slightly different angle from your picture Mensa. Two white wires and one black wire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 At exactly 3:13 CST I was able to break the O2 sensor loose and not destroy it! I was able to get to it from underneath the car once I got the passenger's side axle assembly out. I needed to replace that axle seal anyways, so it was a good excuse to try it like this. I had been soaking it with PB Blaster for the past week or so every few days. Once I was able to get the 1/2" drive crowsfoot looking tool on it and get my long ratchet on that I had JUST enough leverage to get it loose without any heat, even! So, that's the end of that saga. I got the O2 sensor out without damaging it, but it was harder than what others are reporting. I will say that I installed the WBO2 sensor in its place from the top with an open end wrench. However, again, it was hardly the cakewalk others seemed to have been blessed with. Regardless, it's done and now my testing is commencing. So far I have been able to determine it indeed has enough fuel and it seems to be an ignition timing issue. I put in some racing type octane booster with fresh 93 and after driving it a bit it seems like it pulls cleanly...or at least cleaner. So, I am going to back the base timing down. I set it where I was told to, but either I got it wrong or the fuel out here can't support the timing this tune has. I really want to confirm this, but that is going to require a several hundred dollar investment into a decent era-correct scan tool. Currently looking at both Chrysler DRBII and OTC 4000e. We shall see. Thank you all for the time and advice. I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi Dude Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Do you want to tell us what you are testing for or will that continue to be "just a test" of the Oxygen Sensor? You say it "pulls at least cleaner" but you do not specify what it is you must be feeling or sensing. Should we suspect a breakdown in the secondary or a loss of fuel pressure at high RPM causing it to lean out? Even a SnapOn MT2500 Diagnostic Scanner should be able to help. If you are planning to buy something on line. Just wondering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 I am running a RDI stage 2 calibration and under WOT it doesn't seem to pull cleanly. The plugs are very white and the exhaust manifold and turbo are both lighter color than you'd expect. I was suspecting it was lean, but that is not the case. The other option is that it is pulling timing due to impending knock. I experienced it pull cleanly with air temps in the very low 60's, maybe 50's, but other than that it's always acted like something is holding it back under WOT, and if I let off it feels like it cleans up and pulls harder. After running it with the wideband and confirming it has plenty of fuel, I put in a fresh tank of 93 and some VP racing octane booster. After getting some of that through the system, it felt a bit better, but I didn't drive it today, so I will test more tomorrow. I still plan to back the base timing off from 12* BTDC to 10*. I do understand there are other ramifications in doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi Dude Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Are you running open exhaust or through the cat and muffler? Maybe a partially restricted Catalytic converter? All those lighter exhaust components could indicate meltdown within the Cat. Just grabbing at possibilities from this far away. I hope you will resolve it. Come back with results after running at +10 degrees initial timing. I personally don't see that will help unless your advance curve is way overboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 13 hours ago, Hemi Dude said: Are you running open exhaust or through the cat and muffler? Maybe a partially restricted Catalytic converter? All those lighter exhaust components could indicate meltdown within the Cat. Just grabbing at possibilities from this far away. I hope you will resolve it. Come back with results after running at +10 degrees initial timing. I personally don't see that will help unless your advance curve is way overboard. Everything on the car is stock except the tune and blow off valve. I just confirmed timing at 10*. Going to take it for a drive in a bit. I agree that going down to 10* might not be a lot, but if the thing is running on the edge of audible knock (I have NEVER heard it knock), but pulling timing, it might just be enough to keep it out of that situation. If I had a scan tool that could give me real time knock count and/or timing, well...we'd already know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 OK, with the timing at 10* I took it for a decent drive and drive it like I meant it...pulled cleanly, A/F never goes higher than 11.2 under WOT. It pulls nicely for sure and I have nothing else to compare it to that should be in the same power range, so I can't really say if it's "fast" for what it is or not. I will say that the torque comes on so smoothly that it doesn't "feel" as fast as my slower Spirit, but as those that have driven or drive TII cars, the boost is on/off and it give a different feeling of acceleration. I'm not racing the thing and in the end it doesn't matter how fast it is, so...good enough. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper1 Posted June 12 Author Share Posted June 12 Well, after all of that I decided to play it safe and I just put the stock computer back in the car. I still need to put the timing back to stock. When I first put that calibration in the car it "felt" faster, but maybe it was just placebo. I don't know. I got reminded that the calibration for the 16V cars wasn't done by Chrysler. I forget who it was, but a fairly well known entity from the era did the tune work on them and apparently they have one of the best factory tunes out of the box. How much is left on the table? Who really knows as I don't know of a single person that has done back-to-back dyno or track pulls to prove one way or another. Again, the car isn't a race car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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