Great Graham/Dodge Bros truck article

[stakeside]

Latest “Vintage Truck” magazine issue has a great article about later 1927 Graham/Dodge Bros truck. Very informative.

[30DodgePanel]

Gorgeous rig. 

 

The color on the truck wheels has a lot of depth to it as if it has a little pearl in it.

Very nice, thanks for sharing it. 

[nearchoclatetown]

Very unusual! From what it shows there is no brakes on the trailer. Was there any engine available besides the four cylinder in '27 for these big trucks?

Edited October 31, 2023 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:19 PM, nearchoclatetown said:

 Was there any engine available besides the four cylinder in '27 for these big trucks?

 

Now see Doug, I was going to let it go until you went there.

You know my position on model years  

 

ED models did have the early 2249 Senior Six. 1928 one year only model.

 

I was going to write a lengthy post proving why it's labeled incorrectly, but after 100 years I don't think it will change anyones mind and is probably a moot point. Although seeing a truck mislabeled like this is not easy to overlook.

 

Do you know of any 1928 model DA6 cars? 
Sure, some may have been built in late 1928 but were any DA's ever labeled as 1928 models? 

July 1 to June 30th rule still applies all these years later according to the NACC and all of our DB car and truck model charts show this truth.

 

I have a 2018 Ram built in late 2017, never found anything referring to it as a 2017

Also have a 1968 Chevy C20 built in fall of 1967, and again, never found anything referring to it as a 1967. 

Yet we still mislabel 100 years later.

 

This is not a judgement on the article in Vintage Truck magazine, I hope everyone buys a copy and gets a better look at this beautiful truck as the year shouldn't deter you from buying a copy. 

 

It may have been built in late 1927 and originally titled or registered as a 1927 but it's still a 1928 model.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

I've said before I know noting about trucks, this proves it. I take people at their word that they know what they have. I know better, but try to give benefit of doubt. Like cars listed as 1914s with serial numbers of 67000. 

[stakeside]

Here’s pictures of Senior 6 in this truck.

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Thank you for that. I don't have a book store close by. So even though it is a very well done restoration someone doesn't know what they have. I am kind of surprised it doesn't appear to have a governor on the engine. 

[30DodgePanel]

18 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

Thank you for that. I don't have a book store close by. So even though it is a very well done restoration someone doesn't know what they have. I am kind of surprised it doesn't appear to have a governor on the engine. 

 

I am a stickler for the model year but if they have it titled a 1927 thats all they know it by and so be it, as I said it's a moot point by now (to most everyone).

 

 

My apologies everyone for getting hungup on minor details but as a researcher when trying to make sense of the chronological order that these trucks were produced in the data has a way of slapping you in the face when things are out of order and points to the obvious truth according to documentation and not to tradition or hearsay. Unfortunately it's such a grey area by now, but the battle for truth should be desired by all of us.

 

 

Again, this is NOT a knock on the authors or persons responsible for publishing miss-information, it is what it is.... this is about finding out the truth in hopes of making better sense of the DB/GB truck history so we can gain a deeper and better understanding of it. We all get it wrong sometimes (I know I have plenty!) but when we are shown the proof we should be willing to correct things and accept the accountability as we grow in knowledge. I'm sure many could view my old posts and call me out if they wanted and they'd be right many times, but I have no problem admitting my past errors if it leads to the real truth in the end.

 

Here's a perfect example of what adds to the confusion:

Again, not a knock on these gentleman, I'm only trying to find answers and using this as a point related to the reason why we need to be precise with dates and why they are so important. 

 

In the Senior Six book that the DBC sells  by B. Brown and J. Bittence they have the date of the Senior Six first used in the ED trucks beginning on 6/23/1927 eight days prior to the new production model dates, but they don't have any source reference other than "Engineering changes by serial number and date". I am not aware of this document and with all due respect to other researchers before me when it comes to researching these trucks, I simply don't trust anyones word, I have to see proof of such a document that support the date mentioned if it still exists. All the documents most of us have found include confidential bulletins, model charts, advertising, major publication release dates of new models, sales invoices ecetera that say the release date will be August in the newspapers and adverts and the "ED new models introduction" first show up in Automobile Journals in Sept/Oct. 

 

Here's the earliest sales document I have found dated Aug 3 1927. Note this would have been the 7th Senior Six truck produced in Detroit according to frame # as the beginning # was D1001. Although we don't know the exact build date of this truck, it would be hard to believe it sat for over a month or took over a month to build before this invoice was typed (referring to 6/23/1927). Hell, Matt is faster than that  

 

The Senior Six may have been introduced in the spring of 1927 for passenger cars not trucks the Vintage Truck article should have clarified that but again hearsay and assumption are harder and harder to overcome.  Documents like these show it was well into the later part of summer before they began being shipped so you can see why I question the date of 6/23/1927. 

 

Pearl Motor Co would later add a section for GB frame #.

I'm only posting this example below to better understand what the prior invoice is telling us.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

The "engineering changes by serial number" is a book available from the club store. It was generated by a group of members of the club using the master parts book and documents as reference. I THINK it ends around 1928 or 30. I wish there was this same info for after that date available but no one is willing to attempt doing it. I have not checked for this item but trust their saying it was there. Keep in mind vehicles could have been DRIVEN to dealers at that time. From what I have read they would get an order together for X number of vehicles, then the dealer would send drivers to bring the vehicles back home to save? on shipping costs. COULD have been a month? Some of these beginning and end dates have to be analyzed. I found that with looking for the date the early crankhole cover was changed. The master parts book tells the buyer when ordering a replacement cover to change the mounting tube the cover threads into " after serial number blah blah. " The only reason you would have to change that part is the thread on the second design cover is larger. And the first design was no longer available.  This is why the 9th edition parts book is not know all tell all. Parts were superseded from day one sometimes with no notation by part number. You need to loo at earlier MPBs to get the whole picture. 

[30DodgePanel]

I see nothing regarding engineering changes by serial number that would cover the Senior Six at the club store. You may be thinking of the book I've already referenced, but again, that Senior Six book has no indication what the source was that they used. If you say it's MPB that's a direction I'll look to see why they would say 06/23/1927 was the beginning, I agree the parts books are important to follow those changes that they may have made in and out of the model year range. This could be one of those changes but I think I need much more passenger car material to compare the truck data with to figure it out. I know Brian and John both did an excellent job at following the information, I do trust their abilities as researchers, but I have to see it to accept it as proof. Until then... time to stock up on more auto literature from the store and library  

Edited November 4, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

I think I may have found the document (source) that Brian B and John B was referring to regarding the date of production beginning on June 23rd 1927 for the Senior Six ED truck models or "engineering changes by serial number" as they put it. 

 

According to this document, the ED chassis was in production prior to July 1st which is important since again the criteria for reporting to the NACC for model years was July 1 to June 30th the following year.

 

If any of these trucks had build cards showing they were completed by July 1st they would be considered a 1927 model year. However, without any build cards showing some units were completed before July 1st it's still an assumption on either side of the discussion. Based on what data we have currently one could definitely make an argument that the ED is a 1927 if any of the earlier units were completed by July 1st.

 

Another case of clear as mud when discussing DB/GB trucks 🙄

My head hurts ....  

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Clear as mud for sure. So they introduce a brand new to them six cylinder truck with no specs as to size or manufacturer of the engine. But you can go ahead and take orders for them right away. Good find!! I found some new Important Information papers that will be going to the library soon. 

[30DodgePanel]

4 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said:

Clear as mud for sure. So they introduce a brand new to them six cylinder truck with no specs as to size or manufacturer of the engine. But you can go ahead and take orders for them right away. Good find!! I found some new Important Information papers that will be going to the library soon. 

 

It's hard to say without the complete set of bulletins. I did find these documents, but because they aren't dated I'm not sure if they were with the bulletin dated June 23rd or not. I would guess these were part of it but I don't want to assume...

 

Good explanation of what made up the R and X versions of these models. 

Based on these documents, the truck in the OP is an ED and not a EDX since it doesn't have disc wheels.

Again, still an absolutely gorgeous truck and I'm glad to see it in print anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

This says it did have a governor, so did I miss seeing it on the red truck?

[30DodgePanel]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:01 PM, nearchoclatetown said:

This says it did have a governor, so did I miss seeing it on the red truck?

I don't see one but the angle may be effecting things ( although I doubt it ).

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:07 AM, stakeside said:

Latest “Vintage Truck” magazine issue has a great article about later 1927 Graham/Dodge Bros truck. Very informative.

Is this the same truck that Elbert Van Orden once owned?

See page 17 from the April/May 98 edition in the Official Truck Guide from the Club Store.

Edited November 28, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Kind of amazing how large the front axle is compared to the rear axle as you can see by the size of hubcaps.